EBA & IR Issues in Australia (Not for those easily offended!)
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Peanut a very subdued reply from you!
Looks like reality has finally hit you!
whilst reading your posts I was thinking how in the hell are you going to handle it when you get back to syd and have to slot into the f/a position, to be told to do things "our " way.
How will you also handle it when your fellow colleagues will look at you as "sc@b" oh they will smile at you and make small talk but you know what they think.
In the pecking order you will only be one notch above midnight 63 and her friends.
Looks like reality has finally hit you!
whilst reading your posts I was thinking how in the hell are you going to handle it when you get back to syd and have to slot into the f/a position, to be told to do things "our " way.
How will you also handle it when your fellow colleagues will look at you as "sc@b" oh they will smile at you and make small talk but you know what they think.
In the pecking order you will only be one notch above midnight 63 and her friends.
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very interesting
those concerned with the london base i can add another point. never ever has qf management put out so many positive spins on a particular group of people . GD even defended them on the day the annual profits were released. and he also pointed out the customer satisfactions. to take things a bit further he even had it published in the annual report, what a good thing the base is (and it saves 18 million). reminds me when pollies say three times no, then you know they are lying again and again.
do i give a toss about the base.not really. just have to look at the csm's/css's. most of them couldn't get THE job back home. tells you all about the quality of staff.
do i give a toss about the base.not really. just have to look at the csm's/css's. most of them couldn't get THE job back home. tells you all about the quality of staff.
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This is my slant on things
I would of loved to stay in SYD were I have a great house and lifestyle but my company opened a base in LHR and the flying I need to do because of family and business reasons would be unthinkable for me without 20+ years seniority.
I come to work and put 100% into my job and have found the LHR base very easy to work out off and always thought there will be some growing pains but much less than I expected.
Most people I talk with seem happy but there are a few that arn't but I got that at home.
It would be a perfect world if SYD still had full asian port access and LHR unlimited flying but they are very determined and passionate like SYD crew still are about the base.
As I've said many times I play with the cards I have been dealt and make it work for me. If there was a great attack plane to stop it I would of been there but we were out smarted 5 years ago and will never recover from the previous EBA's.
We have to face it the previous FAAA were out guned and out smarted.
The only thing that sh_ts me is one thing happens in LHR and it's a huge issue and many things back home happen and we don't even discuss it in LHR as it's not an issue.
tow, why will I loose my seniority and be just another f/a
I really couldn't give a crap about what other people think and I won't be slotting into any f/a position, I have grander plans and I've never stood in anybody's shadow ever at qantas.
lower, didn't know it was a percentage comparison and op's say 4 crew were sick but from differant flights not the same flight.
I come to work and put 100% into my job and have found the LHR base very easy to work out off and always thought there will be some growing pains but much less than I expected.
Most people I talk with seem happy but there are a few that arn't but I got that at home.
It would be a perfect world if SYD still had full asian port access and LHR unlimited flying but they are very determined and passionate like SYD crew still are about the base.
As I've said many times I play with the cards I have been dealt and make it work for me. If there was a great attack plane to stop it I would of been there but we were out smarted 5 years ago and will never recover from the previous EBA's.
We have to face it the previous FAAA were out guned and out smarted.
The only thing that sh_ts me is one thing happens in LHR and it's a huge issue and many things back home happen and we don't even discuss it in LHR as it's not an issue.
tow, why will I loose my seniority and be just another f/a
I really couldn't give a crap about what other people think and I won't be slotting into any f/a position, I have grander plans and I've never stood in anybody's shadow ever at qantas.
lower, didn't know it was a percentage comparison and op's say 4 crew were sick but from differant flights not the same flight.
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Peanut.
Its all about YOU isnt it?
quote
"I would of loved to stay in SYD were I have a great house and lifestyle but my company opened a base in LHR and the flying I need to do because of family and business reasons would be unthinkable for me without 20+ years seniority.
You have the great house and lifestyle because of the conditions that were available to you ins SYD, the conditons we fought for!
Now you have gone over to LHR and set up a base that will potentially destroy what conditions we have.
You also stated that you are never in anyone's shadow at QF, well I have the whole list of people that are over there and I can assure you there is no one that even remotely stands out!
Oh thats right you must be what they call the "poster boy"!
Such and inflated ego!
You may have been on a few posters in QF, but it means nothing! simply a target for me to graffiti on next time I sign on.............
Its all about YOU isnt it?
quote
"I would of loved to stay in SYD were I have a great house and lifestyle but my company opened a base in LHR and the flying I need to do because of family and business reasons would be unthinkable for me without 20+ years seniority.
You have the great house and lifestyle because of the conditions that were available to you ins SYD, the conditons we fought for!
Now you have gone over to LHR and set up a base that will potentially destroy what conditions we have.
You also stated that you are never in anyone's shadow at QF, well I have the whole list of people that are over there and I can assure you there is no one that even remotely stands out!
Oh thats right you must be what they call the "poster boy"!
Such and inflated ego!
You may have been on a few posters in QF, but it means nothing! simply a target for me to graffiti on next time I sign on.............
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Just slightly off topic a bit but I caught up with a girlfriend a few days ago that works for Jetconnect NZ and flys QF Long Haul.
As there are no opportunities and probally wont be in the next 5-6 years to fly long haul or short haul in a permanent position with Qantas based in Australia I thought it time to investigage other options, as the time has come to move on with my career as a flight attendant (this cant be achieved on a DASH 8). Furthermore Qantas are more than happy to take Australians into long haul based in Auckland as the bashing they are getting for not employing Australians is starting to have an effect.
Well I got the facts and figures and gezz was I shocked. She showed me her pay slip and in her bank account each fortnight she receives in total NZ $936.00, the only other payments she receives is meal allowances at the hotel so if she gets a Joberg she is well and truely stuffed. There is no minimum base turnaround and no additional pay for BFirst. I was aware of this but the salary shocked me I must say. She is happy enough as she knew what she was getting herself into.
So this is what its come to Australians having to move to Auckland and work for NZ$468 Per Week in your hand just to fly Long Haul with our National carrier.
I just loved the reasoning behind this in the Spring Edition of "The Source" its because over 60% of Qantas passengers are not from Australia and we are a multinational company and 94% of employees are Australian based = translation we can exploit overseas base crew because Australian base crew are eating into our performance bonus and we have a clever marketing department that spend days coming up with great concepts to sell this bullsh*t to staff and shareholders alike.
Furthermore its interesting to note that QF short haul has just under 3000 flight attendants according to "The Source" the global senority list for short haul shows there is only about 1100 permanent crew but lets say that is incorrect and there is 1800 that means 40% of the short haul workforce is now casual.
I am a big supporter the FAAA but come on 40% of the workforce is casual isnt that getting a bit beyond a joke or am I the deluded one?
As there are no opportunities and probally wont be in the next 5-6 years to fly long haul or short haul in a permanent position with Qantas based in Australia I thought it time to investigage other options, as the time has come to move on with my career as a flight attendant (this cant be achieved on a DASH 8). Furthermore Qantas are more than happy to take Australians into long haul based in Auckland as the bashing they are getting for not employing Australians is starting to have an effect.
Well I got the facts and figures and gezz was I shocked. She showed me her pay slip and in her bank account each fortnight she receives in total NZ $936.00, the only other payments she receives is meal allowances at the hotel so if she gets a Joberg she is well and truely stuffed. There is no minimum base turnaround and no additional pay for BFirst. I was aware of this but the salary shocked me I must say. She is happy enough as she knew what she was getting herself into.
So this is what its come to Australians having to move to Auckland and work for NZ$468 Per Week in your hand just to fly Long Haul with our National carrier.
I just loved the reasoning behind this in the Spring Edition of "The Source" its because over 60% of Qantas passengers are not from Australia and we are a multinational company and 94% of employees are Australian based = translation we can exploit overseas base crew because Australian base crew are eating into our performance bonus and we have a clever marketing department that spend days coming up with great concepts to sell this bullsh*t to staff and shareholders alike.
Furthermore its interesting to note that QF short haul has just under 3000 flight attendants according to "The Source" the global senority list for short haul shows there is only about 1100 permanent crew but lets say that is incorrect and there is 1800 that means 40% of the short haul workforce is now casual.
I am a big supporter the FAAA but come on 40% of the workforce is casual isnt that getting a bit beyond a joke or am I the deluded one?
Last edited by easternboy; 22nd Sep 2005 at 01:45.
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eastern!
what you said is 100% correct.
Its sad state of affairs, but that is why everyone gets so passionate on this forum.
As the likes of midnight 63 continue on undercutting our conditions things will only get worse.
Midnight seems happy to have aided in slashing everyone's conditions and then she has the audacity to get on this forum and blast those that try and maintain their conditions!
what you said is 100% correct.
Its sad state of affairs, but that is why everyone gets so passionate on this forum.
As the likes of midnight 63 continue on undercutting our conditions things will only get worse.
Midnight seems happy to have aided in slashing everyone's conditions and then she has the audacity to get on this forum and blast those that try and maintain their conditions!
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It is now Thursday 22nd Sept; the last faaa meeting regarding the JFK shuttle was last Friday 16th Sept.
We still have not received a newsletter encapsulating the points of the shuttle and dispensation decision or a postal vote. Will the vote be scrutinised by the AEC or will it be watched over by the media wing of QF, the faaa
The meetings in Sydney were held over approximately 1 week, if you were on a long trip or a commuter it would have been difficult to attend of those meetings.
On the 4th April 2005, the faaa told us in a newsletter that in the next 2 to 3 months they would hold meetings about the JFK dispensation; it took them 5 months to hold those meetings.
The delay in receiving this newsletter is probably because the 3 sisters from the faaa are in crisis talks with LG and Kylie in a bid to put pen to paper to convince crew to vote yes for the dispensation.
We still have not received a newsletter encapsulating the points of the shuttle and dispensation decision or a postal vote. Will the vote be scrutinised by the AEC or will it be watched over by the media wing of QF, the faaa
The meetings in Sydney were held over approximately 1 week, if you were on a long trip or a commuter it would have been difficult to attend of those meetings.
On the 4th April 2005, the faaa told us in a newsletter that in the next 2 to 3 months they would hold meetings about the JFK dispensation; it took them 5 months to hold those meetings.
The delay in receiving this newsletter is probably because the 3 sisters from the faaa are in crisis talks with LG and Kylie in a bid to put pen to paper to convince crew to vote yes for the dispensation.
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22 September 2005
Attention all Qantas Long Haul Flight Attendants
NEW YORK SHUTTLE DISPENSATION
Members who attended the recent FAAA membership meetings throughout the country will be aware that the over-riding theme at those meetings was JOB SECURITY .
On 23 March 2005 the FAAA wrote to you advising that a dispensation for a shuttle between LAX-JFK-LAX for 2 Bid Periods (239 and 240) was agreed to by the FAAA. The primary reason for the dispensation as advised to you at the time was “to provide job security for our members. The transfer of our flying to overseas based crew is not in the strategic interests of our membership or the long term viability of the Long Haul Division.”
That reason has not changed and indeed developments since March have further strengthened the case for our membership to behave flexibly in relation to the realities that confront this Division.
Qantas now has at its disposal other Qantas Group cabin crew who can do International flying that in years gone by was solely done by Long Haul. These other cabin crew employees are often more cost effective to utilize.
We must therefore be prepared to deal with this reality without necessarily liking this reality. Not to do so will provide an incentive for more of “our traditional” flying to be transferred to others. If further international flying is transferred from the Long Haul Division then the job security of our cabin crew will be threatened.
On that basis, the Divisional Executive of the FAAA has decided to continue the JFK shuttle dispensation. A new dispensation agreement has been reached as follows:
- A shuttle between LAX-JFK-LAX may be planned with a planned flight duty of 15 hours. Timings of this flight duty will be monitored.
- The North-bound slip shall be a minimum of 36 hours. In unplanned circumstances, crew may vote to reduce their slip to 18 hours and reduced slip payments will apply.
- The South-bound slip will be planned for a minimum of approximately 46 hours. In unplanned circumstances, this slip may be reduced to a minimum 36 hours rest. Crew may elect to reduce this slip to 18 hours and reduced slip payments will apply.
- In unplanned circumstances, crew can be worked up to 17 hours and then a majority vote is conducted to work up to 20 hours. However, in the event that crew elect to operate beyond 17 hours in unplanned circumstances, the Company will treat the flight duty as a long range flight duty and crew will be paid as per clause 15.2 of EBA IV. For example, crew vote to continue beyond 17 hours and operate for 18 hours. Crew will be paid 6 hours overtime as per clause 15.2.1 and 4 hours long range allowance as per clause 15.2.3 of EBA IV.
- This dispensation may be terminated by one full bid period's notice by either party.
- The dispensation is subject to a vote of FAAA long haul members to be conducted by the Association.
- This dispensation is given on a without prejudice basis and does not set any precedent for any dispensation that may be given for future flight duties.
The FAAA is heartened from the response of those members who attended the recent membership meetings. It was clear that members at the meetings, after listening to all the information and rationale in relation to the JFK dispensation, understood the importance of continuing the dispensation.
Other relevant factors in arriving at the decision to continue the dispensation were these:
• The JFK patterns are being actively bid for by our crew.
• Of the 2 occasions, so far, that the shuttle has gone beyond 17 hours, crew voted to extend their tour of duty.
• The actual average tour of duty for this sector (based on last winter) is 14'59” only 59 minutes beyond what the Company could have automatically planned for.
• The FAAA has received a fatigue report on the JFK shuttle from a leading Australian expert on fatigue. The conclusion of this report does not support the withdrawal of the dispensation based on fatigue grounds.
• Withdrawal of the dispensation will result in NZ overseas based crew doing the shuttle. This will mean substantial displacement of our crew from LAX patterns.
• Implications for new generation aircraft that may be ordered by Qantas. If we refuse to be flexible, then Qantas may determine that international flying on these new aircraft should not be allocated to Long Haul crew.
The FAAA will shortly be organizing a postal vote of our members on the JFK dispensation. The FAAA position is clear and unambiguous. We are strongly advocating a continuation of the dispensation in order that job security of our members is maintained.
We believe our membership is sensible and pragmatic. We don't believe that our members will reject the dispensation and provide further incentive for Qantas to marginalize the Long Haul Division. The situation confronting our Perth Base cannot be allowed to develop into a general threat to all of us.
The prime objective of the FAAA is to protect our employment. We intend to do that in a very difficult environment that confronts us, with your continuing support.
Written and authorized by the Divisional Executive – International Division.
Attention all Qantas Long Haul Flight Attendants
NEW YORK SHUTTLE DISPENSATION
Members who attended the recent FAAA membership meetings throughout the country will be aware that the over-riding theme at those meetings was JOB SECURITY .
On 23 March 2005 the FAAA wrote to you advising that a dispensation for a shuttle between LAX-JFK-LAX for 2 Bid Periods (239 and 240) was agreed to by the FAAA. The primary reason for the dispensation as advised to you at the time was “to provide job security for our members. The transfer of our flying to overseas based crew is not in the strategic interests of our membership or the long term viability of the Long Haul Division.”
That reason has not changed and indeed developments since March have further strengthened the case for our membership to behave flexibly in relation to the realities that confront this Division.
Qantas now has at its disposal other Qantas Group cabin crew who can do International flying that in years gone by was solely done by Long Haul. These other cabin crew employees are often more cost effective to utilize.
We must therefore be prepared to deal with this reality without necessarily liking this reality. Not to do so will provide an incentive for more of “our traditional” flying to be transferred to others. If further international flying is transferred from the Long Haul Division then the job security of our cabin crew will be threatened.
On that basis, the Divisional Executive of the FAAA has decided to continue the JFK shuttle dispensation. A new dispensation agreement has been reached as follows:
- A shuttle between LAX-JFK-LAX may be planned with a planned flight duty of 15 hours. Timings of this flight duty will be monitored.
- The North-bound slip shall be a minimum of 36 hours. In unplanned circumstances, crew may vote to reduce their slip to 18 hours and reduced slip payments will apply.
- The South-bound slip will be planned for a minimum of approximately 46 hours. In unplanned circumstances, this slip may be reduced to a minimum 36 hours rest. Crew may elect to reduce this slip to 18 hours and reduced slip payments will apply.
- In unplanned circumstances, crew can be worked up to 17 hours and then a majority vote is conducted to work up to 20 hours. However, in the event that crew elect to operate beyond 17 hours in unplanned circumstances, the Company will treat the flight duty as a long range flight duty and crew will be paid as per clause 15.2 of EBA IV. For example, crew vote to continue beyond 17 hours and operate for 18 hours. Crew will be paid 6 hours overtime as per clause 15.2.1 and 4 hours long range allowance as per clause 15.2.3 of EBA IV.
- This dispensation may be terminated by one full bid period's notice by either party.
- The dispensation is subject to a vote of FAAA long haul members to be conducted by the Association.
- This dispensation is given on a without prejudice basis and does not set any precedent for any dispensation that may be given for future flight duties.
The FAAA is heartened from the response of those members who attended the recent membership meetings. It was clear that members at the meetings, after listening to all the information and rationale in relation to the JFK dispensation, understood the importance of continuing the dispensation.
Other relevant factors in arriving at the decision to continue the dispensation were these:
• The JFK patterns are being actively bid for by our crew.
• Of the 2 occasions, so far, that the shuttle has gone beyond 17 hours, crew voted to extend their tour of duty.
• The actual average tour of duty for this sector (based on last winter) is 14'59” only 59 minutes beyond what the Company could have automatically planned for.
• The FAAA has received a fatigue report on the JFK shuttle from a leading Australian expert on fatigue. The conclusion of this report does not support the withdrawal of the dispensation based on fatigue grounds.
• Withdrawal of the dispensation will result in NZ overseas based crew doing the shuttle. This will mean substantial displacement of our crew from LAX patterns.
• Implications for new generation aircraft that may be ordered by Qantas. If we refuse to be flexible, then Qantas may determine that international flying on these new aircraft should not be allocated to Long Haul crew.
The FAAA will shortly be organizing a postal vote of our members on the JFK dispensation. The FAAA position is clear and unambiguous. We are strongly advocating a continuation of the dispensation in order that job security of our members is maintained.
We believe our membership is sensible and pragmatic. We don't believe that our members will reject the dispensation and provide further incentive for Qantas to marginalize the Long Haul Division. The situation confronting our Perth Base cannot be allowed to develop into a general threat to all of us.
The prime objective of the FAAA is to protect our employment. We intend to do that in a very difficult environment that confronts us, with your continuing support.
Written and authorized by the Divisional Executive – International Division.
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Funny,I checked my email and the faaa site just after lunch,thursday and nothing wa there.I post something on PPRUNE and all of a sudden Warped shows up and then a copy of the union letter.I wish they were as fast to react to the company as they are to criticism
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The Faaa has responded to the JFK shuttle dispensation with the Chicken Little scenario where if we vote no…
1: The sky will fall
2: All life as we know it will cease.
3: Cows will walk backwards.
4: Day will become night.
5: Sick leave in the LHR base will fall to zero and the base will actually be profitable.
6: The company will close all Australian bases and move us to the UK and build flats for us to use in Brixton
The faaa has said that on only 2 occasions the TOD exceeded 17 hours and the crew voted to continue. This is at odds of at least one crew that I talked to that had no chance to vote or contact the faaa because the doors were closed, the aircraft pushed back and then sat stationary for approximately 1.5 hours and then tour of duty was well over 17 hours when they finished in LA.
“This dispensation is given on a without prejudice basis and does not set any precedent for any dispensation that may be given for future flight duties”.
It is fine with the faaa to tell us this but anyone who has any experience with legal matters will know that law is not black and white and that the company can argue that we have created a precedent. The company obviously wants us to give dispensation because they feel it will be of benefit to them in the future and any future plans they have with this dispensation in mind will certainly not benefit us.
“The actual average tour of duty for this sector (based on last winter) is 14'59” only 59 minutes beyond what the Company could have automatically planned for”.
The key words here are “(based on last winter)”…A few techies have said that the summer storms are the cause for numerous delays.
“The FAAA has received a fatigue report on the JFK shuttle from a leading Australian expert on fatigue. The conclusion of this report does not support the withdrawal of the dispensation based on fatigue grounds”.
Again, this is the first we have heard about the faaa engaging a leading fatigue expert. What grounds does he base his conclusions on, how many crews were interviewed and asked to record readings regarding their sleep during these trips as the tech crew are doing at this time and have been doing for some months. With any study you have to have data to reach a conclusion and as far as I know, no crews have been asked to do this.Funnily,this conclusion that the leading expert on fatigue arrives at concides with the faaa view that we should surrender and vote yes
What are the ramifications if we vote no?
The company may or may not replace us with AKL based crew. However, if the AKL crews are cheaper why have they not done so already?
Secondly, what is to stop the company from replacing us with AKL crew even if we do vote yes!
Short haul crew are not exactly overjoyed with long haul flying and are currently taking the company to arbitration over their flying and in particular their time off. Most of the crew that are doing the long haul flying are the casuals because the full time crews do not like it.
1: The sky will fall
2: All life as we know it will cease.
3: Cows will walk backwards.
4: Day will become night.
5: Sick leave in the LHR base will fall to zero and the base will actually be profitable.
6: The company will close all Australian bases and move us to the UK and build flats for us to use in Brixton
The faaa has said that on only 2 occasions the TOD exceeded 17 hours and the crew voted to continue. This is at odds of at least one crew that I talked to that had no chance to vote or contact the faaa because the doors were closed, the aircraft pushed back and then sat stationary for approximately 1.5 hours and then tour of duty was well over 17 hours when they finished in LA.
“This dispensation is given on a without prejudice basis and does not set any precedent for any dispensation that may be given for future flight duties”.
It is fine with the faaa to tell us this but anyone who has any experience with legal matters will know that law is not black and white and that the company can argue that we have created a precedent. The company obviously wants us to give dispensation because they feel it will be of benefit to them in the future and any future plans they have with this dispensation in mind will certainly not benefit us.
“The actual average tour of duty for this sector (based on last winter) is 14'59” only 59 minutes beyond what the Company could have automatically planned for”.
The key words here are “(based on last winter)”…A few techies have said that the summer storms are the cause for numerous delays.
“The FAAA has received a fatigue report on the JFK shuttle from a leading Australian expert on fatigue. The conclusion of this report does not support the withdrawal of the dispensation based on fatigue grounds”.
Again, this is the first we have heard about the faaa engaging a leading fatigue expert. What grounds does he base his conclusions on, how many crews were interviewed and asked to record readings regarding their sleep during these trips as the tech crew are doing at this time and have been doing for some months. With any study you have to have data to reach a conclusion and as far as I know, no crews have been asked to do this.Funnily,this conclusion that the leading expert on fatigue arrives at concides with the faaa view that we should surrender and vote yes
What are the ramifications if we vote no?
The company may or may not replace us with AKL based crew. However, if the AKL crews are cheaper why have they not done so already?
Secondly, what is to stop the company from replacing us with AKL crew even if we do vote yes!
Short haul crew are not exactly overjoyed with long haul flying and are currently taking the company to arbitration over their flying and in particular their time off. Most of the crew that are doing the long haul flying are the casuals because the full time crews do not like it.
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Easternboy,
no, you are not deluded.
QF is run by despicable people.
702 ABC radio had an industrial relations specialist on the other day describing Qantas's exploitation of offshore labour to boost it's record profits.
His most strident criticism was for the way QF goes about ignoring it's Australian F/A industrial agreements thereby imposing slave labour working conditions on it's offshore based crew.
In typical QF hypocricy QF acknowledges that it wants and needs Australians but to get a gig you now have to leave the country so that QF can exploit you.
As I've mentioned before 60 AKL based FA's have left [most for Air NZ] this year.
These numbers represent 30% of the base!!
If you are desperate for a longhaul position why not consider Air NZ.
They offer decent working conditions are run by humans.
Not filth.
Jettlager
P.S. If you and others are concerned [and you should be] at the rampant casualisation of our worforce that is reducing Australians to nothing more than cogs in the machine of big business maybe we should think HARD about which party we vote for at the next Federal election.
We owe it to our kids.
no, you are not deluded.
QF is run by despicable people.
702 ABC radio had an industrial relations specialist on the other day describing Qantas's exploitation of offshore labour to boost it's record profits.
His most strident criticism was for the way QF goes about ignoring it's Australian F/A industrial agreements thereby imposing slave labour working conditions on it's offshore based crew.
In typical QF hypocricy QF acknowledges that it wants and needs Australians but to get a gig you now have to leave the country so that QF can exploit you.
As I've mentioned before 60 AKL based FA's have left [most for Air NZ] this year.
These numbers represent 30% of the base!!
If you are desperate for a longhaul position why not consider Air NZ.
They offer decent working conditions are run by humans.
Not filth.
Jettlager
P.S. If you and others are concerned [and you should be] at the rampant casualisation of our worforce that is reducing Australians to nothing more than cogs in the machine of big business maybe we should think HARD about which party we vote for at the next Federal election.
We owe it to our kids.
Last edited by jettlager; 22nd Sep 2005 at 10:03.
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What was said about the casuals doing all the regional flying in short haul eg. HKG, SIN is incorrect.
Seniors are bidding for these duties and doing them (not going sick). Thats atleast in Sydney.
A friend of mine with 6years service did a HKG and was the most junior by years. I have a few friends that try and bid for them and cant get them.
I hear that out of PER they have a few casuals on them though - particulary NRT, not sure about BNE and MEL bases but certainly not the case in SYD.
Please dont go saying things your not sure about. Stick with facts and lose the emotion.
Seniors are bidding for these duties and doing them (not going sick). Thats atleast in Sydney.
A friend of mine with 6years service did a HKG and was the most junior by years. I have a few friends that try and bid for them and cant get them.
I hear that out of PER they have a few casuals on them though - particulary NRT, not sure about BNE and MEL bases but certainly not the case in SYD.
Please dont go saying things your not sure about. Stick with facts and lose the emotion.
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"Stick with facts and lose the emotion"
These are the facts told to me by shorthaul crew..no emotion..just cold hard clinical facts.They said they joined to do shorthaul flying not longhaul,maybe it is you who is being emotional
These are the facts told to me by shorthaul crew..no emotion..just cold hard clinical facts.They said they joined to do shorthaul flying not longhaul,maybe it is you who is being emotional
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That may be the case with some patterns, sydney s/h, but I too know of many MAM friends who do international flying regularly.
Putting aside the international trips, it's getting so the only permanent crew member on some short haul domestic trips is the CSM!
Pretty sad state of affairs for our workforce in general when your entire crew is almost all casual!
Putting aside the international trips, it's getting so the only permanent crew member on some short haul domestic trips is the CSM!
Pretty sad state of affairs for our workforce in general when your entire crew is almost all casual!
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Sydney
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THINK. Before you vote.................
There was an recent expose on ABC's Australian story about the industrial relations campaign being run by the ACTU.
At present they have an orange bus with ACTU representatives traveling around N.S.W. promoting workers rights in the face of john howard's soon to be IR "reform".
One town was telling.............
The turn out was pretty low to the union's meeting. This small country town only had one major employer that was a fruit canning company or suchlike.
Anyway a late middle aged fellow got up on stage announcing that it was the first union meeting he had ever been to and that he was there in relation to fears he had for his sons future and that of the town.
You see, his son [who also worked in the factory] had reciently been for a home loan so that he and his wife could do the "Australian thing" of buying a [modest] house and having kids.
As a full time casual of two years he was knocked back by the bank who explained that without a permanent job he was ineligible for a loan.
His father made inquiries at the firm only to discover that 40 or so others in the factory were in the same boat.
None of these people have the kind of job security that was once "a given" in Australia and none have the ability to build a foundation for a secure family life.
They will all be forced to leave this town in order to fulfill the dream of owning a home and this kind of population shift places more and more pressure on towns that are struggling to keep people as it is.
Qantas has around 40% of shorthaul crew working under these arrangements.
It might be a job but I can't for the life of me see how its much of a life.
Sorry for the rant but I've spent 20 years observing the world and it saddens me to see howard taking our society down the US route.
Their's is not a pretty society and we most certainly dont need to create an underclass of working poor.
Jettlager
At present they have an orange bus with ACTU representatives traveling around N.S.W. promoting workers rights in the face of john howard's soon to be IR "reform".
One town was telling.............
The turn out was pretty low to the union's meeting. This small country town only had one major employer that was a fruit canning company or suchlike.
Anyway a late middle aged fellow got up on stage announcing that it was the first union meeting he had ever been to and that he was there in relation to fears he had for his sons future and that of the town.
You see, his son [who also worked in the factory] had reciently been for a home loan so that he and his wife could do the "Australian thing" of buying a [modest] house and having kids.
As a full time casual of two years he was knocked back by the bank who explained that without a permanent job he was ineligible for a loan.
His father made inquiries at the firm only to discover that 40 or so others in the factory were in the same boat.
None of these people have the kind of job security that was once "a given" in Australia and none have the ability to build a foundation for a secure family life.
They will all be forced to leave this town in order to fulfill the dream of owning a home and this kind of population shift places more and more pressure on towns that are struggling to keep people as it is.
Qantas has around 40% of shorthaul crew working under these arrangements.
It might be a job but I can't for the life of me see how its much of a life.
Sorry for the rant but I've spent 20 years observing the world and it saddens me to see howard taking our society down the US route.
Their's is not a pretty society and we most certainly dont need to create an underclass of working poor.
Jettlager
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easternboy
We all agree it is a sad state of affairs that Australians are denied permanent flying positions with Qantas our national carrier (as Qantas call themselves when they wheel out the marketing wagon) based on the fact that you are Australian.
Its true hundreds upon hundreds of permanent positions have been offered in Auckland and London but surprise, surprise zero positions for Australians.
With the Mutual Recognition Bill set to be passed by the Senate we might as well all move to NZ as that country will be running our skys in the very near future, but thats a whole other thread.
You mention the latest edition of The Source and as Jetlagger pointed out there have been resignations in Auckland, shock horror, so if any of you wannbe's out there want a job its off to Auckland to work as slaves sadly.
It further disgusts me to no end that regional crew such as yourself and internal staff are further denied positions as cabin crew due to performance bonus motivated executives when UK Nationals have opportunities that will NEVER be afforded to our Australian counterparts.
Mr Seatback 2
You are spot on, these days its a very unusual event to find a crew of permanents. Most flying I do are with all casual crew and the odd permanent thrown in as a side menu option.
As Eastern boy pointed out with his figures 40% of crew are casual well I think that percentage would be higher but the only people that know that information are QF, MAM and the FAAA. But wait the use of casuals will be strictly controlled famous last words of the FAAA Industrial officers.
sydney s/h
You are correct HKG patterns are mainly crewed by permanet flight attendants (that seems like such a very strage thing to type) but its true. The Singapore/Darwin/Adelaide/Sydney was a bit of a MAM trip and the odd permanent thrown in for good measure.
I believe in Melbourne 6+ years doesnt get you HKG so I doubt casuals would be getting those in Brisbane I have no idea, out of Perth due to the structure of their flying these days yes you will find a lot of casuals on regionals patterns.
So for you guys to say permanent crew dont like regional flying is not correct, yes there are some that joined short haul to fly domestic but like long haul we have had to adapt to change and accept that short haul is no longer just domestic.
We all agree it is a sad state of affairs that Australians are denied permanent flying positions with Qantas our national carrier (as Qantas call themselves when they wheel out the marketing wagon) based on the fact that you are Australian.
Its true hundreds upon hundreds of permanent positions have been offered in Auckland and London but surprise, surprise zero positions for Australians.
With the Mutual Recognition Bill set to be passed by the Senate we might as well all move to NZ as that country will be running our skys in the very near future, but thats a whole other thread.
You mention the latest edition of The Source and as Jetlagger pointed out there have been resignations in Auckland, shock horror, so if any of you wannbe's out there want a job its off to Auckland to work as slaves sadly.
It further disgusts me to no end that regional crew such as yourself and internal staff are further denied positions as cabin crew due to performance bonus motivated executives when UK Nationals have opportunities that will NEVER be afforded to our Australian counterparts.
Mr Seatback 2
You are spot on, these days its a very unusual event to find a crew of permanents. Most flying I do are with all casual crew and the odd permanent thrown in as a side menu option.
As Eastern boy pointed out with his figures 40% of crew are casual well I think that percentage would be higher but the only people that know that information are QF, MAM and the FAAA. But wait the use of casuals will be strictly controlled famous last words of the FAAA Industrial officers.
sydney s/h
You are correct HKG patterns are mainly crewed by permanet flight attendants (that seems like such a very strage thing to type) but its true. The Singapore/Darwin/Adelaide/Sydney was a bit of a MAM trip and the odd permanent thrown in for good measure.
I believe in Melbourne 6+ years doesnt get you HKG so I doubt casuals would be getting those in Brisbane I have no idea, out of Perth due to the structure of their flying these days yes you will find a lot of casuals on regionals patterns.
So for you guys to say permanent crew dont like regional flying is not correct, yes there are some that joined short haul to fly domestic but like long haul we have had to adapt to change and accept that short haul is no longer just domestic.