BA and attendance.
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get your facts right BABOI the free hotline tkts and the money was for the hard work during the summer, ie the masses of people at the terminals and the low level of staff
oh and by the way its no wonder crew are despised with arrogant twats like you.
and by the by the eg300 still doesnt make a difference you can still go sick for a week or more a couple of times a year you just have to leave 3 months in between
oh and by the way its no wonder crew are despised with arrogant twats like you.
and by the by the eg300 still doesnt make a difference you can still go sick for a week or more a couple of times a year you just have to leave 3 months in between
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Redfred
Are you the same Redfred who used to be cabin crew at longhaul LGW and who regularly used to post on the Bassa crew forum.Who gave up flying to work as a passenger service agent for BA.If you are you'll know full well that cabin crew cannot and should not fly with a head cold and numerous other ailments.Of course if you are a different Redfred then I apologise.
Are you the same Redfred who used to be cabin crew at longhaul LGW and who regularly used to post on the Bassa crew forum.Who gave up flying to work as a passenger service agent for BA.If you are you'll know full well that cabin crew cannot and should not fly with a head cold and numerous other ailments.Of course if you are a different Redfred then I apologise.
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BA Boi
You appear to be highly vociferous, yet highly political and lacking in precise detail - something which I note you did from your joining BA, when you posted on PPRuNe regarding the lack of bunk on the LGW 777s - which was again down to your lack of any understanding of the differing route structures and an apparent desire to fight anything that gave any inclination of anti-crew sentiment with fire.
Once again you have displayed such a lack of knowledge, turning events to your political outlook of the conspiracy against BA cabin crew that you perceive to exist.
While I will not offer any opinion as to why you are so inflammatory, your 'anti-all-other-employee-groups' attitude is terrible - and is not, I note, reflective of many of your hardworking colleagues in cabin crew.
I ask you - BA Boi - have you ever taken a sick day to avoid work? If not, where does your hatred of the policy really come from, as there is nothing in it that would impact upon anyone other than shirkers?
Why did you bother to join BA and poison the atmosphere further if you hate their policies so much? They are a company run for shareholders, not a charitable organisation run for a dinosaur of a union.
Ozangel - I take your point and agree that such a greater level is related to contact with people, however customer service agents in the terminal too - for example - have high levels of contact with many people yet do not display such levels of absence.
Why is there always a minority who ruin others' perception of the whole workforce? You must - BA Boi - have some perverse desire to be despised?
If you are to have such low regard for other groups and give such little respect to others' opinions, what treatment do you expect to be afforded - both in your opinion and as a staffmember?
You appear to be highly vociferous, yet highly political and lacking in precise detail - something which I note you did from your joining BA, when you posted on PPRuNe regarding the lack of bunk on the LGW 777s - which was again down to your lack of any understanding of the differing route structures and an apparent desire to fight anything that gave any inclination of anti-crew sentiment with fire.
Once again you have displayed such a lack of knowledge, turning events to your political outlook of the conspiracy against BA cabin crew that you perceive to exist.
While I will not offer any opinion as to why you are so inflammatory, your 'anti-all-other-employee-groups' attitude is terrible - and is not, I note, reflective of many of your hardworking colleagues in cabin crew.
I ask you - BA Boi - have you ever taken a sick day to avoid work? If not, where does your hatred of the policy really come from, as there is nothing in it that would impact upon anyone other than shirkers?
Why did you bother to join BA and poison the atmosphere further if you hate their policies so much? They are a company run for shareholders, not a charitable organisation run for a dinosaur of a union.
Ozangel - I take your point and agree that such a greater level is related to contact with people, however customer service agents in the terminal too - for example - have high levels of contact with many people yet do not display such levels of absence.
Why is there always a minority who ruin others' perception of the whole workforce? You must - BA Boi - have some perverse desire to be despised?
The vast majority of the BA non-flying staff who have put their little oppinions on this forum
Last edited by Lucifer; 18th Jul 2005 at 18:56.
Having worked on the ground and helped push (not in a nasty way - supporting him!) a rather large man up the steps into a Saab 340, who had just soiled himself, I can only too well understand the ground crew being exposed. (Never mind the stench the lovely FA and her pax had to endure) Also having done toilet dumps on BAe146s with faulty seals - resulting in crap all over the tarmac, and me with a shovel to clean up the mess...
(Thank god those days are over -hopefully)
Comparing the training i had on the ground, to the training i got for cabin crew, there was never a mention in the ground crew training about being sick at work - whereas in the cabin crew training it was rammed into our heads, sick? dont come to work!
Ive been at work sick as a dog in the air, and ive been at work sick as a dog on the ground, and i would choose ground anyday.
I have only ever taken one sick day - in my life, im one of these people that only ever gets sick on RDOs and Annual Leave. My sick day was not so much a physical sickness - if you get my drift - and while drowning my sorrows that night, i was caught out by the girl who does rostering - who understood and never said a word about it. (awkward, long story!). Should have been stress or bereavement leave - but i called in sick because it was too hard to discuss at the time.
(Thank god those days are over -hopefully)
Comparing the training i had on the ground, to the training i got for cabin crew, there was never a mention in the ground crew training about being sick at work - whereas in the cabin crew training it was rammed into our heads, sick? dont come to work!
Ive been at work sick as a dog in the air, and ive been at work sick as a dog on the ground, and i would choose ground anyday.
I have only ever taken one sick day - in my life, im one of these people that only ever gets sick on RDOs and Annual Leave. My sick day was not so much a physical sickness - if you get my drift - and while drowning my sorrows that night, i was caught out by the girl who does rostering - who understood and never said a word about it. (awkward, long story!). Should have been stress or bereavement leave - but i called in sick because it was too hard to discuss at the time.
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Redfred
What's an upgrade with Emirates got to do with this forum. That quote is merely stating fact with regards to the policy at Emirates. A policy which, whether right or wrong, is enforced.
What's an upgrade with Emirates got to do with this forum. That quote is merely stating fact with regards to the policy at Emirates. A policy which, whether right or wrong, is enforced.
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The whole topic is a hard one to call as I have been part of the system and like I say, having been BA crew for over 6 years I have first hand experience of what goes on. I hold my hands up and admit I got away with murder and going sick was as easy as anything with no questions asked!
I think crew are worried that the comfort of going sick when you don't want to go away or when you have your neighbour's 100th birthday champagne and caviar bash will have a real impact on their control over their working life at BA.
Crew used to have control over BA, but it is slowly turning the other way and it is not liked. From my humble experience crew did NOT go sick if they had a cold or even flu...the contrary, but up comes Ascot or Wimbledon and suddenly there's a rush of crew reporting "sick".
Believe me, on BA's flights to NRT, SIN/SYD and BKK/SYD sickness is practically non-existent as earaches and colds don't happen on these routes....funny that...$$$$$$$$$$
My guess is that things have got out of hand re sickness and that change is inevitable. Anyway, if you are genuinely ill, as long as you have a doctor's certificate there is little they can do...equally, if you are always ill, should you not get yourself checked out for your own peace of mind?
I think crew are worried that the comfort of going sick when you don't want to go away or when you have your neighbour's 100th birthday champagne and caviar bash will have a real impact on their control over their working life at BA.
Crew used to have control over BA, but it is slowly turning the other way and it is not liked. From my humble experience crew did NOT go sick if they had a cold or even flu...the contrary, but up comes Ascot or Wimbledon and suddenly there's a rush of crew reporting "sick".
Believe me, on BA's flights to NRT, SIN/SYD and BKK/SYD sickness is practically non-existent as earaches and colds don't happen on these routes....funny that...$$$$$$$$$$
My guess is that things have got out of hand re sickness and that change is inevitable. Anyway, if you are genuinely ill, as long as you have a doctor's certificate there is little they can do...equally, if you are always ill, should you not get yourself checked out for your own peace of mind?
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Please remember that the other thing which sets apart cabin crew and ground staff/flight crew:
Cabin crew are FOOD HANDLERS
We are therefore governed the exactly the same rules as staff in any restaurant/bar/pub/hotel.
Cabin crew are FOOD HANDLERS
We are therefore governed the exactly the same rules as staff in any restaurant/bar/pub/hotel.
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Oz angel said:
I cant agree with this more. Having spent three years on the ground working both at a desk and in a less than waterproof uniform coat on the apron throughout several Irish winters, it is a lot easier to report for work when on the ground. The conditions on the ground are nothing compared to that in the air where the air is dry, the cabin is pressurised and everyone can see you wiping your nose!
I have only been sick twice since I joined BA. On one of those occasions it was a bank hoiday, Heaven forbid!!! I was violently ill at the time yet still got called several weeks later to "explain" why I had been sick over a bank holiday!!!
Its unusualy how this company works!!!
Ive been at work sick as a dog in the air, and ive been at work sick as a dog on the ground, and i would choose ground anyday.
I have only been sick twice since I joined BA. On one of those occasions it was a bank hoiday, Heaven forbid!!! I was violently ill at the time yet still got called several weeks later to "explain" why I had been sick over a bank holiday!!!
Its unusualy how this company works!!!
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the free hotline tkts and the money was for the hard work during the summer, ie the masses of people at the terminals and the low level of staff
As far as the EG300 is concerned, all departments are susceptible to different ailments which would result in sickness. Pax services and crew would be unable to work with an injury such as a broken bone or bad sprain, office staff could work with this, crew cannot fly with colds, I wouldnt expect any groundstaff member to work with a bad cold as it will spread about, groundstaff and crew cannot work if they lose their voice, etc. I think BA would be fairer to take each case individually and if the ailment means not being able to carry out their normal duties as a result, they are honoured the sick day, without question. If a pattern forms however.....
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The 'shirkers' totally pi*s me and all other crew off who actually want to work.
It is their selfish ''Idon't like that trip'' attitude that ruins it for us all and puts BA and BASSA in a very tough position.
I fly and I love it but suffered for months with sore ears but did'nt want to go sick but finally had to be 'grounded' for months.
I totally agree with BA that we need to reduce sickness.Well let's get the selfish sods who are off every year for Ascot,Wimbledon and Henley etc for patern sickness and sack them!!.
From my own very personal point of view I agree with BASSA's stance on this, that we cannot operate with blocked ears,colds etc or like me you could be off for months or worse still lose your job through ill health.I speak from experience as I have worked in loading,baggage handling,wheelchairs and check-in.
I flew with a Captain who insisted operating back to LHR with blocked and very painful ears at the turn of the year.He was in agony on the two short shuttles we had to do but insisted he was going to operate back as he was in the 'process'.
Such a disgrace that a professional pilot and nice guy had to risk his ears and possibly his career for EG300.
Yes if you ask, we all told him he was a stupid pratt for doing it!!.
WTDWL.
It is their selfish ''Idon't like that trip'' attitude that ruins it for us all and puts BA and BASSA in a very tough position.
I fly and I love it but suffered for months with sore ears but did'nt want to go sick but finally had to be 'grounded' for months.
I totally agree with BA that we need to reduce sickness.Well let's get the selfish sods who are off every year for Ascot,Wimbledon and Henley etc for patern sickness and sack them!!.
From my own very personal point of view I agree with BASSA's stance on this, that we cannot operate with blocked ears,colds etc or like me you could be off for months or worse still lose your job through ill health.I speak from experience as I have worked in loading,baggage handling,wheelchairs and check-in.
I flew with a Captain who insisted operating back to LHR with blocked and very painful ears at the turn of the year.He was in agony on the two short shuttles we had to do but insisted he was going to operate back as he was in the 'process'.
Such a disgrace that a professional pilot and nice guy had to risk his ears and possibly his career for EG300.
Yes if you ask, we all told him he was a stupid pratt for doing it!!.
WTDWL.
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Lucifer.....You raise some good issues but on one of them you are totally wrong. You say there is nothing stopping us doing office based work when we have say, blocked ears or a cold. And I totally agreed with you. BASSA HAVE approached BA on this issue and suggested exactly what you did....if we aren't bed bound sick, but cant fly, can we do some office work? BA's reply was no, our job is on the aircraft and if we can't do it on the day don't come to work.
It is true, BALPA are desperate to do a u-turn on their agreement to this policy as the number of pilots heading for the 'final stage' of the process (ir dismissal) are soaring.
For me it is as simple as this....unless I am REALLY sick I will come to work. Namely because, being on a basic of GBP11000.00 I can't afford to lose the allowences, whatever the trip. And if you do go sick for an unprofitable trip you can end up losing the trip following it, so it isnt something that happens often.
Miche2 exactly when did you work for BA?
It seems that every post that comes up about things goin on at BA sees you retelling an old (generally negative) story about BA crew that invariably involves a MIA trip. Did ALL these things happen on the same MIA trip or did you just do a lot of them??
It is true, BALPA are desperate to do a u-turn on their agreement to this policy as the number of pilots heading for the 'final stage' of the process (ir dismissal) are soaring.
For me it is as simple as this....unless I am REALLY sick I will come to work. Namely because, being on a basic of GBP11000.00 I can't afford to lose the allowences, whatever the trip. And if you do go sick for an unprofitable trip you can end up losing the trip following it, so it isnt something that happens often.
Miche2 exactly when did you work for BA?
It seems that every post that comes up about things goin on at BA sees you retelling an old (generally negative) story about BA crew that invariably involves a MIA trip. Did ALL these things happen on the same MIA trip or did you just do a lot of them??
Last edited by keeperboy; 19th Jul 2005 at 10:33.
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I am a pilot within BA.
1) I have only been sick once since the new EG300 came into effect, and therefore have not triggered any of the stages.
2) Redfred is incorrect about being able to be sick as many days as you like, but only a certan number of occassions per year. There is also a limit for flying crew of 10 days per year. (This includes the day you called up sick, even if it was a day off. So people have taken to giving no notice, and calling on the day of report. Not a good thing for crewing purposes, but this is what the rules make us do.)
3) If I had been given the option, I would not have signed up to this new sickness management proceedure without certain changes. These would take into account that we cannot report with a common cold etc, but would not simply exclude you as often as you like if you have a cold. ie. I would give us an allowance of say 15 days or 20 days (or whatever is deemed acceptable). To give us the same allowance as anyone else is just stupid. Spending as much time in the environment that we do, at times when our body clock would prefer us to be in bed, weakens your immune system and you get ill more regularly - FACT.
4) At the end of the day, the CAA issued me a licence which requires a valid class 1 medical for it to be valid. I have had my medical revoked due to concussion. If I called the CAA each time I had a cold, they would temporarily revoke my medical too, but they would get pretty annoyed with me for wasting my time. This is why they give me the authority to do my own revoking for things such as colds. It is the LAW that I do so. BA should not be able to force me to break the law?
5) The question worrying me is, could BA sack me for going sick too often if I was genuinely sick on each occassion. Unfortunately, I think the answer with this new policy is YES. They could say an individual is sick more often than all other pilots and therefore are not well suited to the job. They could even argue that it is their duty of care to stop making you ill all of the time by employing you to fly.
6) Pilots have been told that if a BALPA member ends up at the final stage of this procedure, a strike Ballot will be issued. If you are not going to accept the WHOLE of the proccess as it is, why sign up to it BALPA?
7) I personally think BASSA are correct to stand their ground. However, I do not think cabin crew should be given carte blanche to go sick whenever they like. There should still be a limit on how many days sick, flying staff can take before triggering various stages, but this limit should be higher than general staff, to reflect that colds, headaches etc prevent us from doing our jobs.
8) For those arguing about whether a cold is an issue for flying staff or not - ask yourselves this: Would I like to be on an aircraft suffering a rapid decompression, where the crew mamber nearest me has a cold. Their ear drums have burst so they are so worried about the pain that they have not managed to get their oxygen on before passing out. You too have been in a bit of a panic, and did not get your oxygen on in time. Perhaps you were waiting by the toilet and there were no spare masks for you to get to in the few seconds of useful consciousness that you would have. Who is going to put your mask on for you now?
Similarly, the flight crew are currently trying to get the aircraft down to a safe altitude, but they cannot hear each other or the radio, because their eardrums have burst. And the pain is taking away much of their capacity. Perhaps they will set an altitude that is too low, and fly me into a mountain? Or any other number of things because they are not fit to fly, but have come to work because BA have applied so much pressure. Yes they were breaking the law when they pitched up for work, pressure or no pressure, but that is not going to help me when I am dead. Or perhaps they were not breaking in the law, but simply did not have the symptoms before the flight, from the cold they had picked up on a nightstop with one of the crew who came to work with a cold...
Finally - it is not true that BALPA are desperate to do a u-turn on this sickness procedure.
It IS true that they are constantly trying to adjust it. But they understand the need for the policy within the company and that is why they signed up to it.
Signing up to the deal had nothing to do with payrises or bonuses or anything. In fact i believe BALPA had already signed us up to EG300 before we were balloted on the pay deal.
I don\'t think we were actually asked for our opinion on EG300. As far as I aware, BALPA just signed it. Cheers?
The company are saving a lot of money with this new procedure every year. I think you MIGHT find that striking WILL be required to prevent the policy being forced upon you, if BA choose to go along this line. Remember, BA will be thinking of the money they are saving elsewhere in the company, and it is money that is saved every year, so it just depends how far into the future they are prepared to look (how many years of savings), before deciding it is cheaper to give in.
1) I have only been sick once since the new EG300 came into effect, and therefore have not triggered any of the stages.
2) Redfred is incorrect about being able to be sick as many days as you like, but only a certan number of occassions per year. There is also a limit for flying crew of 10 days per year. (This includes the day you called up sick, even if it was a day off. So people have taken to giving no notice, and calling on the day of report. Not a good thing for crewing purposes, but this is what the rules make us do.)
3) If I had been given the option, I would not have signed up to this new sickness management proceedure without certain changes. These would take into account that we cannot report with a common cold etc, but would not simply exclude you as often as you like if you have a cold. ie. I would give us an allowance of say 15 days or 20 days (or whatever is deemed acceptable). To give us the same allowance as anyone else is just stupid. Spending as much time in the environment that we do, at times when our body clock would prefer us to be in bed, weakens your immune system and you get ill more regularly - FACT.
4) At the end of the day, the CAA issued me a licence which requires a valid class 1 medical for it to be valid. I have had my medical revoked due to concussion. If I called the CAA each time I had a cold, they would temporarily revoke my medical too, but they would get pretty annoyed with me for wasting my time. This is why they give me the authority to do my own revoking for things such as colds. It is the LAW that I do so. BA should not be able to force me to break the law?
5) The question worrying me is, could BA sack me for going sick too often if I was genuinely sick on each occassion. Unfortunately, I think the answer with this new policy is YES. They could say an individual is sick more often than all other pilots and therefore are not well suited to the job. They could even argue that it is their duty of care to stop making you ill all of the time by employing you to fly.
6) Pilots have been told that if a BALPA member ends up at the final stage of this procedure, a strike Ballot will be issued. If you are not going to accept the WHOLE of the proccess as it is, why sign up to it BALPA?
7) I personally think BASSA are correct to stand their ground. However, I do not think cabin crew should be given carte blanche to go sick whenever they like. There should still be a limit on how many days sick, flying staff can take before triggering various stages, but this limit should be higher than general staff, to reflect that colds, headaches etc prevent us from doing our jobs.
8) For those arguing about whether a cold is an issue for flying staff or not - ask yourselves this: Would I like to be on an aircraft suffering a rapid decompression, where the crew mamber nearest me has a cold. Their ear drums have burst so they are so worried about the pain that they have not managed to get their oxygen on before passing out. You too have been in a bit of a panic, and did not get your oxygen on in time. Perhaps you were waiting by the toilet and there were no spare masks for you to get to in the few seconds of useful consciousness that you would have. Who is going to put your mask on for you now?
Similarly, the flight crew are currently trying to get the aircraft down to a safe altitude, but they cannot hear each other or the radio, because their eardrums have burst. And the pain is taking away much of their capacity. Perhaps they will set an altitude that is too low, and fly me into a mountain? Or any other number of things because they are not fit to fly, but have come to work because BA have applied so much pressure. Yes they were breaking the law when they pitched up for work, pressure or no pressure, but that is not going to help me when I am dead. Or perhaps they were not breaking in the law, but simply did not have the symptoms before the flight, from the cold they had picked up on a nightstop with one of the crew who came to work with a cold...
Finally - it is not true that BALPA are desperate to do a u-turn on this sickness procedure.
It IS true that they are constantly trying to adjust it. But they understand the need for the policy within the company and that is why they signed up to it.
Signing up to the deal had nothing to do with payrises or bonuses or anything. In fact i believe BALPA had already signed us up to EG300 before we were balloted on the pay deal.
I don\'t think we were actually asked for our opinion on EG300. As far as I aware, BALPA just signed it. Cheers?
The company are saving a lot of money with this new procedure every year. I think you MIGHT find that striking WILL be required to prevent the policy being forced upon you, if BA choose to go along this line. Remember, BA will be thinking of the money they are saving elsewhere in the company, and it is money that is saved every year, so it just depends how far into the future they are prepared to look (how many years of savings), before deciding it is cheaper to give in.
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keeperboy - I did many MIAs darling and I'm sorry if I appear negative, but I'm honest and my negativity stems from what turned out for me to be a pretty scummy job at the end of the day. Are you on the 747 fleet sweetie? Are they still making you stack endless trays of juice trays in the aft galley? All that vitamin C should get rid of any "cold" bacteria anyway.
Stay well.
Stay well.
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Indeed I am on the 747 'darling'. And unlike you, I have a positive attitude as do most of my collegues. Without loweing the base too much it is people like you, who feel that you are FAR too superior to....god forbid....stack a trolley or prepare juice that give us the up-our-own lazy arse reputation that we BA crew can attract. You made the best decision of your life to get out.
Well, stacking trolleys and checking toilets is our job and most of us enjoy it. I'd much rather earn good money and enjoy good benefits this way than sat behind some desk somewhere doing the same job day in day out. And unlike some sad ex crew that feel the need to come onto chat forums and give their two pence worth of 'what was sweetie darling ' the rest of us who are actually doing the job are seeing the world and enjoying the lowly job we must perform.
Ta ta darling.
Well, stacking trolleys and checking toilets is our job and most of us enjoy it. I'd much rather earn good money and enjoy good benefits this way than sat behind some desk somewhere doing the same job day in day out. And unlike some sad ex crew that feel the need to come onto chat forums and give their two pence worth of 'what was sweetie darling ' the rest of us who are actually doing the job are seeing the world and enjoying the lowly job we must perform.
Ta ta darling.
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"I'd much rather earn good money and enjoy good benefits this way than sat behind some desk somewhere doing the same job day in day out"
So, cabin crew earn good money and don't do the same job day in day out??? I suppose the unpredictability and variety is whether someone has beef or chicken or tea over coffee.
I don't think MICHE2 is coming across as superior, but she is telling people what the job actually is and you don't like the idea of that.
And you enjoy stacking trolleys? I thought people did the job for the "glamour" !!
So, cabin crew earn good money and don't do the same job day in day out??? I suppose the unpredictability and variety is whether someone has beef or chicken or tea over coffee.
I don't think MICHE2 is coming across as superior, but she is telling people what the job actually is and you don't like the idea of that.
And you enjoy stacking trolleys? I thought people did the job for the "glamour" !!
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Hmmm...obviously not a flyer we have here.
Well, just to help the simple people out:
The variety could be:
a) going to new york for 24 hours.
b) going to nassau for 5 days.
c) going on safari in nairobi.
d) going to Bangkok and Sydney.
e) starting work at 7am.
f) starting work at 10pm
g) working with any combination of 10,000 other cabin crew and that changing on a trip by trip basis.....
h) Doing a flight of 7 hours.
i) Doing a flight of 13 hours.
OK traveller5, now let's hear what variety YOUR job has.
Well, just to help the simple people out:
The variety could be:
a) going to new york for 24 hours.
b) going to nassau for 5 days.
c) going on safari in nairobi.
d) going to Bangkok and Sydney.
e) starting work at 7am.
f) starting work at 10pm
g) working with any combination of 10,000 other cabin crew and that changing on a trip by trip basis.....
h) Doing a flight of 7 hours.
i) Doing a flight of 13 hours.
OK traveller5, now let's hear what variety YOUR job has.
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I don't think that there is any dispute on this forum whether you should fly with a cold or not. You should never be forced to either, however it is as usual the minority that will exploit this and use it as a ticket to a sicky. You can throw all the arguments in the world at BA management, but all you would have to do is compare the percentage of Cabin Crew sickness to another airline and all arguments are blown out of the water. Cabin Crew from the other airlines do exactly the same job to exactly the same places with I suspect a far lower sickness rate.