QF Bid Period 238
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Chicken or Fish,
of course it's all about senoir executive performance bonuses.
Shorthaul have agreed to undercut the longhaul award so more and more flying is farmed off to them.
The language skills that have traditionally been important in these markets [and offered by the competition] pale into insignificance when performance bonuses are at stake.
Those running QF care for nothing except lining their own pockets before they jump ship or retire.
Tagalog, Mandarin, Cantonese, Japanese.
Great skills for an international FA to offer their passengers when doing Perth turn arounds.
You should hear what the groundstaff in HKG say about the arrangements. They of course, CARE about the airlines reputation.
Jettlager.
of course it's all about senoir executive performance bonuses.
Shorthaul have agreed to undercut the longhaul award so more and more flying is farmed off to them.
The language skills that have traditionally been important in these markets [and offered by the competition] pale into insignificance when performance bonuses are at stake.
Those running QF care for nothing except lining their own pockets before they jump ship or retire.
Tagalog, Mandarin, Cantonese, Japanese.
Great skills for an international FA to offer their passengers when doing Perth turn arounds.
You should hear what the groundstaff in HKG say about the arrangements. They of course, CARE about the airlines reputation.
Jettlager.
Last edited by jettlager; 14th May 2005 at 00:17.
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can't believe the sad sack attitude on this post
I've worked for compass 1 & 2 and ansett
most senior qf L/H crew I've flown with appear to have an atlas box permenantly attached to their arse
a L/H csm's idea of a hard day's work is having to read 3 newspapers at his work station instead of 2. he may not get time to fit in a movie
leave guys , give the job to someone who wants it
I've worked for compass 1 & 2 and ansett
most senior qf L/H crew I've flown with appear to have an atlas box permenantly attached to their arse
a L/H csm's idea of a hard day's work is having to read 3 newspapers at his work station instead of 2. he may not get time to fit in a movie
leave guys , give the job to someone who wants it
Last edited by west coast girl; 13th May 2005 at 17:56.
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That is so true, if QF want to send us up to Asia at least give us the skilled language crew to undertake the job and deliver "exceptional" service. I have done a few HKG and MNL trips with no language speakers and its just downright Humiliating.
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QF obviously don't want to use their LH crew because they are too expensive and have bad attitudes. It is cheaper to leave them at home. They are not only too costly but judging by the views expressed here, they are an embarrassment to the brand.
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I have to disagree with you on the attitude aspect as I suspect most of the long haul crew that post on here are either CSM/CSS/BFirst obviously QF dont feel the same as you, otherwise they wouldnt hold these positions. In fact I bet they are the poster boys and girls of the brand in the real world.
I do however agree it comes down to cost.
Prune is an avenue where crew can express whatever feelings they choose (within the rules of prune of course) and personally these crew with bad attitude as you say have shown me another side of the coin, both Australian and LHR based crew.
You have to appreciate these are generally long term employees that should be respected regardless of your personal view and 99.9% of the time they put across valid points and arguments. If you look through their posts its generally directed at the company and not other crew (oh ok the odd short haul and LHR pot shot from time to time, but do you blame them) but I highly doubt the customer would ever be effected by these crew. I am 100% confident they are the professionals within the long haul division just like all of us.
They are venting in a forum that allows such a debate and good on them. A lot of crew and wannbe crew can gain valuable informationm from these people if you look past some of the more colourful comments.
If you messaged these people with a problem or question I bet you they would come back to you and help you out regardless.
You have to appreciate their flying is fast disappearing and they are rightly worried about their future both career and financial.
There is probally more short haul and casual crew with worse attitude than what is displayed on here by long haul crew.
Sure shoot me down in flames but could I care less - NO!
I do however agree it comes down to cost.
Prune is an avenue where crew can express whatever feelings they choose (within the rules of prune of course) and personally these crew with bad attitude as you say have shown me another side of the coin, both Australian and LHR based crew.
You have to appreciate these are generally long term employees that should be respected regardless of your personal view and 99.9% of the time they put across valid points and arguments. If you look through their posts its generally directed at the company and not other crew (oh ok the odd short haul and LHR pot shot from time to time, but do you blame them) but I highly doubt the customer would ever be effected by these crew. I am 100% confident they are the professionals within the long haul division just like all of us.
They are venting in a forum that allows such a debate and good on them. A lot of crew and wannbe crew can gain valuable informationm from these people if you look past some of the more colourful comments.
If you messaged these people with a problem or question I bet you they would come back to you and help you out regardless.
You have to appreciate their flying is fast disappearing and they are rightly worried about their future both career and financial.
There is probally more short haul and casual crew with worse attitude than what is displayed on here by long haul crew.
Sure shoot me down in flames but could I care less - NO!
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the reason the HKG route out of PER has gone to the dogs is because short haul crew are flying it . cheese & chalk flying.
S/H wouldn't know a head set stowage if they tripped over one and an ABO & an ASO belong in the magazine rack.
the FAAA was committed to closing down bases
they should be congratulated on their deft work in perth.
thanks to their complete indifference and neglect of this base (dispensation after dispensation) , open antagonism to the union reps out there- it will soon be shut.
now if they could just do something about BKK and AKL.
no wonder some of us opted for London.
S/H wouldn't know a head set stowage if they tripped over one and an ABO & an ASO belong in the magazine rack.
the FAAA was committed to closing down bases
they should be congratulated on their deft work in perth.
thanks to their complete indifference and neglect of this base (dispensation after dispensation) , open antagonism to the union reps out there- it will soon be shut.
now if they could just do something about BKK and AKL.
no wonder some of us opted for London.
Last edited by west coast girl; 13th May 2005 at 18:39.
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galleyhag, well said, I wish more crew from both sides had your way of thinking, you are so right crew on these posts are writing their concerns about management not about other crew, the people that concern me are people like west coast girl, what a shocking attitude towards other crew both short haul and long haul, and what she said about the union neglect on the perth base is pure fiction.
a message to WCG, tone it down,be more supportive to other crew, 95% of them are great, I think you should reasses your career path.
a message to WCG, tone it down,be more supportive to other crew, 95% of them are great, I think you should reasses your career path.
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not anti -union
cart exchange, don't get me wrong.
I'm not anti-union per se.
Its just that I think the FAAA has become complacent and bloated.
Theoretically a union comes into being to protect the weakest employees against the excesses and greed of capitalism implemented by manangement. fair enough.
however over the few years I've been with the longhaul division of the FAAA I have only ever seen the union defend the drunks, thieves and serial malingerers. people you had worked with and couldn't wait to get rid of. ones that somehow had gotten under the interview radar.
they go in for a discipinary clause 11 with a union rep and come out laughing looking forward to their next drink onboard or their next bottle of booze they will pinch from the aircraft or just going sick as they usually do.
the union has lost its way.
its job is to improve and maintain our working conditions -not to protect every useless malingerer that most of us couldn't wait to see the back off. my hard earned money does not need to be put to these perhaps well intentioned but misdirected causes.
the union has become an oasis for officials and good old fashioned aussie bludgers.
I'm not anti- union . I just believe we need to re-invent it.
maybe we'll do it here in london.
I'm not anti-union per se.
Its just that I think the FAAA has become complacent and bloated.
Theoretically a union comes into being to protect the weakest employees against the excesses and greed of capitalism implemented by manangement. fair enough.
however over the few years I've been with the longhaul division of the FAAA I have only ever seen the union defend the drunks, thieves and serial malingerers. people you had worked with and couldn't wait to get rid of. ones that somehow had gotten under the interview radar.
they go in for a discipinary clause 11 with a union rep and come out laughing looking forward to their next drink onboard or their next bottle of booze they will pinch from the aircraft or just going sick as they usually do.
the union has lost its way.
its job is to improve and maintain our working conditions -not to protect every useless malingerer that most of us couldn't wait to see the back off. my hard earned money does not need to be put to these perhaps well intentioned but misdirected causes.
the union has become an oasis for officials and good old fashioned aussie bludgers.
I'm not anti- union . I just believe we need to re-invent it.
maybe we'll do it here in london.
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WCG
Ok, you're starting to explain yourself, Hmm I know what you mean and I too have seen the union defend some real a##seholes, and it really annoyed me, however I have also in all my years seen them defend people that have been bullied by QF management and lets face it there has been more bullying than drunks.
I also know for a fact that a lot of times the union has not gone in full bat for someone as they wanted to get rid of them, only to see management back down and put in the too hard basket, a lot of times the old PDM's have referred certain individuals to upper management for dismissal only to see their recommendations rejected.
As far as the Perth base goes, the union tried to help those people out as much as they could, as far as QF was concerned they did not care,to them close the base down and let them go, do you really think that management would have cared about the Perth people, they used to call you people over there the "Pentecostal's because you would walk around with a silly smile on your face and not know what you're smiling about.
As far as the FAAA goes I have a lot of issues with them, I still cant get over the fact they have given dispensation for JFK/LAX what a bunch of &^%^& and then what do they do, send out a pantyhose survey.
Anyway WCG, have faith in your fellow crew, not management, they will never assist you, all they care about is the bottom dollar, they are bonus driven.
I also know for a fact that a lot of times the union has not gone in full bat for someone as they wanted to get rid of them, only to see management back down and put in the too hard basket, a lot of times the old PDM's have referred certain individuals to upper management for dismissal only to see their recommendations rejected.
As far as the Perth base goes, the union tried to help those people out as much as they could, as far as QF was concerned they did not care,to them close the base down and let them go, do you really think that management would have cared about the Perth people, they used to call you people over there the "Pentecostal's because you would walk around with a silly smile on your face and not know what you're smiling about.
As far as the FAAA goes I have a lot of issues with them, I still cant get over the fact they have given dispensation for JFK/LAX what a bunch of &^%^& and then what do they do, send out a pantyhose survey.
Anyway WCG, have faith in your fellow crew, not management, they will never assist you, all they care about is the bottom dollar, they are bonus driven.
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Muscle
Just got back and hey I agree with you guys totally.
So glad to hear that others are seeing the irrelevance of our beloved FAAA.
Why is it that short haul, AO and JetStar are getting the long haul work?
Why do you think that QF management have said "We won't talk to the long haul FAAA?"
Unfortunately it is because our long haul FAAA have misrepresented us.
I do not condone what QF are doing but surely it is easiest to break the weakest link...!
So glad to hear that others are seeing the irrelevance of our beloved FAAA.
Why is it that short haul, AO and JetStar are getting the long haul work?
Why do you think that QF management have said "We won't talk to the long haul FAAA?"
Unfortunately it is because our long haul FAAA have misrepresented us.
I do not condone what QF are doing but surely it is easiest to break the weakest link...!
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dont get me wrong
please read my previous post properly, although im pi$$ed of with the dispensation and a few other things, the current people in the association are trying to correct all the mistakes by the previous "elected" officials, as we all know it was them that stated this whole scenario.
What I was trying to say is all this squabbling between us is fruitless and serves no purpose, lhr base against aussie and s/haul etc, we are playing into managements hands.
Yeah sure we all look after the customers on our flights but remember this they get off the flights and they dont care about us or our conditions, they dont care about how buggerred you are!, the only people that understand this are other crew,we have to start respecting each other first.
What I was trying to say is all this squabbling between us is fruitless and serves no purpose, lhr base against aussie and s/haul etc, we are playing into managements hands.
Yeah sure we all look after the customers on our flights but remember this they get off the flights and they dont care about us or our conditions, they dont care about how buggerred you are!, the only people that understand this are other crew,we have to start respecting each other first.
Last edited by TightSlot; 14th May 2005 at 12:44.
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Cartexchange,
That's a slight contradiction isn't it? In the same paragraph even.....
Have a great day!
RaverFlaver :o)
you are so right crew on these posts are writing their concerns about management not about other crew, the people that concern me are people like west coast girl, what a shocking attitude towards other crew both short haul and long haul, and what she said about the union neglect on the perth base is pure fiction.
Have a great day!
RaverFlaver :o)
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pentecostals?
cartxchange
are you serious?
some of the most switched on and enthusiastic f/as I've ever met came out of perth
sydney long haul cut its own throat and signed its death warrant with the hewitt survey. by their naive honesty cabin crew gave management the objective data they needed to take to the board and close down this base . 16% totally disengaged , 32% absentee employees ,turning up for work but not really there.
syd defined itself as a base of dead men walking. zombies.
management is not going to change ,no soul searching there, but cabin crew, like sheep to the slaughter - gave them the statistical data they needed to get rid of them all. very bright.
geoff believes opening new bases is the only way to inject new blood into this moribund profession.
short haul, australian airlines and jet star asia will now take over all syd long haul routes
L/H crew will be what is called "warehoused"- on the books but not used - when they are forced out through sheer frustration, jetstar asia & AA will be re - branded as Qantas with a cabin crew at half the price.
wedge business is a good description of this process.
are you serious?
some of the most switched on and enthusiastic f/as I've ever met came out of perth
sydney long haul cut its own throat and signed its death warrant with the hewitt survey. by their naive honesty cabin crew gave management the objective data they needed to take to the board and close down this base . 16% totally disengaged , 32% absentee employees ,turning up for work but not really there.
syd defined itself as a base of dead men walking. zombies.
management is not going to change ,no soul searching there, but cabin crew, like sheep to the slaughter - gave them the statistical data they needed to get rid of them all. very bright.
geoff believes opening new bases is the only way to inject new blood into this moribund profession.
short haul, australian airlines and jet star asia will now take over all syd long haul routes
L/H crew will be what is called "warehoused"- on the books but not used - when they are forced out through sheer frustration, jetstar asia & AA will be re - branded as Qantas with a cabin crew at half the price.
wedge business is a good description of this process.
Last edited by west coast girl; 15th May 2005 at 06:03.
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"they used to call you people over there the "Pentecostal's because you would walk around with a silly smile on your face and not know what you're smiling about."
I don't think there needs to be a reason for someone smiling, there should be more of it!!!!
Oz
I don't think there needs to be a reason for someone smiling, there should be more of it!!!!
Oz
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you're right raver, badly written, but have a look at the whole post I think you get the idea, I suppose I better not post things whilst Im having a glass of red, So are you happy about your new EBA! 64% of you voted yes, hmmmm.
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Cartexchange,
I am happy with the new EBA. Ideally I'm sure most crew would have wanted what the FAAA were trying to get, however when you compare to what we settled on against individual contracts and work place agreemnets, it is a much better deal that the crew have opted to take.
Enjoy your weekend,
RaverFlaver
I am happy with the new EBA. Ideally I'm sure most crew would have wanted what the FAAA were trying to get, however when you compare to what we settled on against individual contracts and work place agreemnets, it is a much better deal that the crew have opted to take.
Enjoy your weekend,
RaverFlaver
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Raver,
Totally agree with your comments re the AO EBA. Ideally yes...we would have liked a few things to swing in our direction. But in the end I think the crew have been smart. We have priced ourselves against 'other' airlines rather than QF L/H and looked at our position universally in terms of conditions rather than cry poor at our 30% less pay than QF L/H. We were never going to get the same rate as L/H - that is why we exist - 9% over 3 years is always the going rate these days across the Qantas Group.
We have somewhat bowed to the company to ensure our survival in the global market. I guess we are what human resource managers call 'change champions.'
Totally agree with your comments re the AO EBA. Ideally yes...we would have liked a few things to swing in our direction. But in the end I think the crew have been smart. We have priced ourselves against 'other' airlines rather than QF L/H and looked at our position universally in terms of conditions rather than cry poor at our 30% less pay than QF L/H. We were never going to get the same rate as L/H - that is why we exist - 9% over 3 years is always the going rate these days across the Qantas Group.
We have somewhat bowed to the company to ensure our survival in the global market. I guess we are what human resource managers call 'change champions.'
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QF Skywalker,
my understanding is that the negotiations that took place to set wages paid to AO CC always reflected the fact that they [you?] do not operate under the same conditions as QF longhaul.
You know the deal.
Single Y/C aircraft type V's Multiple type, 3 class service.
North/south flying V's multi time zone flying.
Now it seems those "differences" have been negated through your EBA to the point where AO CC will effectively be free to operate as QF longhaul are.
With no extra pay to compensate.
How will AO CC's pay/conditions compare to those of longhaul cabin crew working out of other "developed" countries ?
Airlines like British Airways, Luftansa, Swiss, JAL,Air France, United, etc, etc.
AO has only ever been a vehicle designed to drive the conditions of the mainline carrier down.
AT LEAST 30% of QF longhaul CC pay is made up of overtime, ODTA, meal allowances and long range duty allowance which are largely specific to the flying we do.
"change champions ?".............please.
Spare us the "weasel words".
Jettlager
my understanding is that the negotiations that took place to set wages paid to AO CC always reflected the fact that they [you?] do not operate under the same conditions as QF longhaul.
You know the deal.
Single Y/C aircraft type V's Multiple type, 3 class service.
North/south flying V's multi time zone flying.
Now it seems those "differences" have been negated through your EBA to the point where AO CC will effectively be free to operate as QF longhaul are.
With no extra pay to compensate.
How will AO CC's pay/conditions compare to those of longhaul cabin crew working out of other "developed" countries ?
Airlines like British Airways, Luftansa, Swiss, JAL,Air France, United, etc, etc.
AO has only ever been a vehicle designed to drive the conditions of the mainline carrier down.
AT LEAST 30% of QF longhaul CC pay is made up of overtime, ODTA, meal allowances and long range duty allowance which are largely specific to the flying we do.
"change champions ?".............please.
Spare us the "weasel words".
Jettlager
Last edited by jettlager; 15th May 2005 at 11:13.
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Jettlager - HOLD YOUR FIRE !
The 'change champion' comment was made tounge in cheek - perhaps I should have made that more clear in the post.
However, whilst I always agree with your thoughts on pprune I would like to remind you of a few things.
A) AO was set up to fly to destinations where QF could no longer make a profit. This is due largely to the high costs associated with sending a 'red tail' into certain ports - Not, as you mention to drive the conditions of the mainline carrier down. That was done years ago with the opening of the AKL and BKK bases.
B) QUOTE - How will AO CC's pay/conditions compare to those of longhaul cabin crew working out of other "developed" countries ?
Airlines like British Airways, Luftansa, Swiss, JAL,Air France, United, etc, etc.
Swissair - CLOSED ! Re-opened as Swiss with cheaper EVERYTHING.
United ? .......please.......crew voted to take a pay cut in order to ensure their survival ! I won't begin to list the steps taken by other carriers to ensure they kept operating. You and I both know that QF group employees are fed the doom and gloom stories of these other carriers via the Qantas news magazine. We have seen what these companies have had to do keep profitable and what the employees have had to do to keep their jobs.
AO crew were faced with a difficult choice. The company were moving on to the next step of individual contracts for cabin crew and the faaa were saying 'we can't get you anything more - they will not negotiate.'
In other words......sign a company agreement or sign an agreement which provided some benefit and still kept the faaa involved. What would you do ? I think it was a smart choice to sign the union agreement.
The 'change champion' comment was made tounge in cheek - perhaps I should have made that more clear in the post.
However, whilst I always agree with your thoughts on pprune I would like to remind you of a few things.
A) AO was set up to fly to destinations where QF could no longer make a profit. This is due largely to the high costs associated with sending a 'red tail' into certain ports - Not, as you mention to drive the conditions of the mainline carrier down. That was done years ago with the opening of the AKL and BKK bases.
B) QUOTE - How will AO CC's pay/conditions compare to those of longhaul cabin crew working out of other "developed" countries ?
Airlines like British Airways, Luftansa, Swiss, JAL,Air France, United, etc, etc.
Swissair - CLOSED ! Re-opened as Swiss with cheaper EVERYTHING.
United ? .......please.......crew voted to take a pay cut in order to ensure their survival ! I won't begin to list the steps taken by other carriers to ensure they kept operating. You and I both know that QF group employees are fed the doom and gloom stories of these other carriers via the Qantas news magazine. We have seen what these companies have had to do keep profitable and what the employees have had to do to keep their jobs.
AO crew were faced with a difficult choice. The company were moving on to the next step of individual contracts for cabin crew and the faaa were saying 'we can't get you anything more - they will not negotiate.'
In other words......sign a company agreement or sign an agreement which provided some benefit and still kept the faaa involved. What would you do ? I think it was a smart choice to sign the union agreement.