Qantas New York Services
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batodd,
ah.......that question will depend on how desperately greedy those running, "The Spirit Of Australia" are.
I'm sure they would love to but on the balance of reports coming from QFUK they might be just a little gun shy.
Maybe they'll save it for next years bonus target.
Jettlager
ah.......that question will depend on how desperately greedy those running, "The Spirit Of Australia" are.
I'm sure they would love to but on the balance of reports coming from QFUK they might be just a little gun shy.
Maybe they'll save it for next years bonus target.
Jettlager
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As stated in a previous post, the CAAA does not allow any of the major U.S carriers to attempt this tour of duty, so why is Qantas pushing ahead for this? The CAAA are obviously not allowing JFK return flights from LAX for a reason.
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Because the safety/welfare of both the crew and their passengers are considered important by the US regulatory body.
Qantas on the other hand............. ?
Do the words "lip service" mean anthing to you?
Jettlager
Qantas on the other hand............. ?
Do the words "lip service" mean anthing to you?
Jettlager
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It is clear many FAAA hardliners don't see what the union is telling them. It is precisely their individual lack of can-do that is contributing to QF giving increasing amounts of work to other cabin crew groups who will gladly do it. The FAAA has clearly put that exact point to it's members yesterday and the majority of members have a realistic understanding of this.
Thankfully, the union extremists are in the minority, as their humiliating defeat at the last EBA demonstrated.
Thankfully, the union extremists are in the minority, as their humiliating defeat at the last EBA demonstrated.
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support PPRuNe
posted 6th April 2005 07:03
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Because the safety/welfare of both the crew and their passengers are considered important by the US regulatory body.
Qantas on the other hand............. ?
Do the words "lip service" mean anthing to you?
Jettlager
posted 6th April 2005 07:03
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Because the safety/welfare of both the crew and their passengers are considered important by the US regulatory body.
Qantas on the other hand............. ?
Do the words "lip service" mean anthing to you?
Jettlager
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jettlager
I must take issue with you here. My grandfather toiled in various coal mines in Scotland in the first half of the 20th Century. As a very small child, I remember him sitting in front of the fire, hunch backed, coughing his lungs into the flames. He told me that he and his mates worked 12 hour shifts, six days per week with no work transport or pit head ablutions. They hewed coal by pick lying prone in water logged seams some 2½ feet high. They had a 'darg' to meet each shift to earn just a pittance. No darg, no pay. He and my grand mother plus two children lived in a two roomed miners' cottages owned by the colliery with no hot water, gas, stove, bathroom or inside toilet. Quitting the job meant leaving the house - not really an option in those days. During the 30s, lay offs were common so my grand father and father sold their labour to local smallholders for milk and eggs. And this occurred while the mine owner, an English aristocrat, 'wintered' in Monte Carlo from October to March.
In later life, my grand father suffered a major back injury in a roof fall. Compensation - no way, at least not until I lodged a claim under a recent British Government initiative, some fifty years after the event!
Even QF doesn’t replicate such employment conditions.
I find your comparison odious and insulting.
The Qantas Group- Bringing to the 21st. century the terms and conditions for its Cabin Crew of 19th. century British coal mines.
In later life, my grand father suffered a major back injury in a roof fall. Compensation - no way, at least not until I lodged a claim under a recent British Government initiative, some fifty years after the event!
Even QF doesn’t replicate such employment conditions.
I find your comparison odious and insulting.
Last edited by Argus; 6th Apr 2005 at 10:18.
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argus,
welcome back.
Thanks for the touching little story.
You are correct of course.
The 12 hour shifts endured by your forebears are nothing compared to the 16 and 17 hours multi sector tours of duty QF cabin crew will be subjected to.
Do you think our cabin crew should be operated half way around the world [14.30 hour TOD], slipped for 1 local night and THEN made to operate a MULTI SECTOR tour of duty that even the locals wont do?
"Even QF doesn’t replicate such employment conditions."
Quite a telling quote when you think about it.
Jettlager
P.S. moderator.
I take umbrage with the reference made at the end of argus's post.
Please ask him to desist.
welcome back.
Thanks for the touching little story.
You are correct of course.
The 12 hour shifts endured by your forebears are nothing compared to the 16 and 17 hours multi sector tours of duty QF cabin crew will be subjected to.
Do you think our cabin crew should be operated half way around the world [14.30 hour TOD], slipped for 1 local night and THEN made to operate a MULTI SECTOR tour of duty that even the locals wont do?
"Even QF doesn’t replicate such employment conditions."
Quite a telling quote when you think about it.
Jettlager
P.S. moderator.
I take umbrage with the reference made at the end of argus's post.
Please ask him to desist.
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jettlager
The comparison you attempt to draw between your present working environment (QF I assume as your profile isn’t expansive on this point) and what I described in 20th Century Scots coal mines is, with great respect, arrant nonsense and nothing short of the ridiculous. Apart from the obvious physical differences and lack of basic amenities that even QF provides, you, unlike my forbearers, have the freedom to seek alternative employment should you find your present situation too much to bear. And you do seem to be totally dissatisfied with your current lot.
In deference to your wishes, I have deleted the last sentence of my previous post.
The comparison you attempt to draw between your present working environment (QF I assume as your profile isn’t expansive on this point) and what I described in 20th Century Scots coal mines is, with great respect, arrant nonsense and nothing short of the ridiculous. Apart from the obvious physical differences and lack of basic amenities that even QF provides, you, unlike my forbearers, have the freedom to seek alternative employment should you find your present situation too much to bear. And you do seem to be totally dissatisfied with your current lot.
In deference to your wishes, I have deleted the last sentence of my previous post.
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Just thought I'de point out that while its not too common, some US crews do trans-con turnarounds - Jetblue for one (JFK-LGB/OAK-JFK)...a friend of mine also said his wife at delta does them as well once in a while - JFK-SLC/SEA/California - JFK in the same day
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Comparison?
Argus
You are just a little emotional.Obviously you are very fond of your grandfather(he is a lucky man to have you as a grandson).Jettlager's post was metaphorical.It was a comparison meant to highlight a situation not denegrate your grandfather.
You are just a little emotional.Obviously you are very fond of your grandfather(he is a lucky man to have you as a grandson).Jettlager's post was metaphorical.It was a comparison meant to highlight a situation not denegrate your grandfather.
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A friend flying for CO a couple of years back was doing LAX-EWR-LAX roundtrip daytrips. Further, the duty didn't commence until pushback or 60mins after STD, whichever came first. JL clearly has got carried away by their extremism without checking the facts.
Anyway, JL's extreme view is in the majority. The union radicals were made to eat humble pie at the EBA negotiations and so they will on this one too. What an embarrassment they must be to their colleagues.
Enjoying the new EBA L2P?
Anyway, JL's extreme view is in the majority. The union radicals were made to eat humble pie at the EBA negotiations and so they will on this one too. What an embarrassment they must be to their colleagues.
Enjoying the new EBA L2P?
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flugenluft,
so what you are saying is that no US major MAKES their crew do this sector????
"JL's extreme view is in the majority."
How correct you are.
If you consider my objection to inhumane working conditions "extreme" then so be it.
What exactly is your relationship to QF and why should we be subjected to a sector that NO US MAJOR makes their crew do despite the BILLIONS in losses their airlines have endured?
THE QANTAS GROUP -"Metaphorically" bringing the conditions of 19th Century British coal mines and subjecting them to it's 21st century Cabin Crew.
so what you are saying is that no US major MAKES their crew do this sector????
"JL's extreme view is in the majority."
How correct you are.
If you consider my objection to inhumane working conditions "extreme" then so be it.
What exactly is your relationship to QF and why should we be subjected to a sector that NO US MAJOR makes their crew do despite the BILLIONS in losses their airlines have endured?
THE QANTAS GROUP -"Metaphorically" bringing the conditions of 19th Century British coal mines and subjecting them to it's 21st century Cabin Crew.
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JL, you are just playing on words now because it has been demonstrated once again that you do not do your research before you blurt on Pprune.
Your issue earlier was that it was a safety/welfare issue. Now that it has been demonstrated that there are many crew in the US doing this pairing and you don't know what you are talking about, your argument has lost credibility (you lost credibility with me a long time ago when you were Left2Primary and got banned from Pprune for life).
Everybody sees you for what you are. As for me being a QF mouthpiece, you are just reverting to your same old tactic of name calling because once again you lack an intelligent and viable counter argument.
How's the new foreign base going L2P?
Your issue earlier was that it was a safety/welfare issue. Now that it has been demonstrated that there are many crew in the US doing this pairing and you don't know what you are talking about, your argument has lost credibility (you lost credibility with me a long time ago when you were Left2Primary and got banned from Pprune for life).
Everybody sees you for what you are. As for me being a QF mouthpiece, you are just reverting to your same old tactic of name calling because once again you lack an intelligent and viable counter argument.
How's the new foreign base going L2P?
Last edited by flugenluft; 6th Apr 2005 at 23:42.
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Time zone?
Flugenluft,
What you appear to have forgotten is that American crews are in their own timezone...They are not jetlagged.
QF crews on the other hand are both jetlagged and fatigued after completing a 14 hour sector from Sydney and going through a massive 19 hour time change.
Weather in American winters can close JFK for hours.Aircraft sit at alternate airports for extended periods waiting for a break in the weather.Turnaround times at JFK are notoriously slow, often taking in excess of 2.5 hours.Factor these circumstances in and you are looking at tours of duty in excess of 18 hours plus.
Perhaps YOU should do some research before you decide to enter the fray.
What you appear to have forgotten is that American crews are in their own timezone...They are not jetlagged.
QF crews on the other hand are both jetlagged and fatigued after completing a 14 hour sector from Sydney and going through a massive 19 hour time change.
Weather in American winters can close JFK for hours.Aircraft sit at alternate airports for extended periods waiting for a break in the weather.Turnaround times at JFK are notoriously slow, often taking in excess of 2.5 hours.Factor these circumstances in and you are looking at tours of duty in excess of 18 hours plus.
Perhaps YOU should do some research before you decide to enter the fray.
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Right, but also wrong!
Surfside 6 reckons there is a 'massive 19 hour time change' between Sydney and LA. That may be correct on the clock and calendar but in reality, there are only seven times zones difference. That is, when it's 1500 local in Sydney, it's 2200 local in LA. In body terms, the difference is just 7 hours.
Just another example of statistics, statistics and lies. I am not saying that Surfside is lying, rather he/she is just exagerating to illustrate his/her point. The claim does not wash.
Just another example of statistics, statistics and lies. I am not saying that Surfside is lying, rather he/she is just exagerating to illustrate his/her point. The claim does not wash.
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Statistics?Mr.Esson
One day back 7 hours ahead ,ONLY seven time zones?This still equates to a lotta jetlag particularly when combined with a fourteen hour tour of duty with very little rest/sleep onboard.Couple this with an 07.30 call the next day( to go to JFK) and you have a lot of sleep deprivation.19 hours /five hours whatever combination you would like to use it still knocks you around.
Perhaps Mr.Esson you would like to see the crew operate Syd/Lax transit Lax/Jfk transit Jfk/Lax.A mere 29 hour tour of duty.
Would this be satisfactory for you?
The floggings will continue until morale improves.Thank you Mr.Esson... chief flogger .
What about the other points that SS6 raised?
Talk about being selective to prove a point
Perhaps Mr.Esson you would like to see the crew operate Syd/Lax transit Lax/Jfk transit Jfk/Lax.A mere 29 hour tour of duty.
Would this be satisfactory for you?
The floggings will continue until morale improves.Thank you Mr.Esson... chief flogger .
What about the other points that SS6 raised?
Talk about being selective to prove a point
Last edited by Butterfield8; 8th Apr 2005 at 09:29.
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Given that there are U.S crew that fly transcon turns, just not common, here are other points to consider:
(1) Many of those that allow these turns are flying for low cost carrier. LCC have shorter and tigher turnaround time between flights. They also fly narrow body aircraft which allows for quick unload/reload. Given that in QF's situation the crew will stay on the same aircraft, it certainly takes a lot longer to deplane, unload bags, load new bags and board a 747 than a 737 or an A320 that many of the LCC fly. This adds to their duty time.
(2) Catering adds more time. Because they only serve snacks and beverages, catering on LCC can be boarded from the originating station but be sufficient for the whole transcon turn. On legacy carriers and probably QF, the inflight service will probably comprise close to a full international meal service judging by the flight time. Not to mention its harder work for these crew since they are not simply handing out snacks, in my opinion.
(3) Remember that airlines "knowingly" violate union work rules all the time. Just because somebody said they have done a transcon turn does not mean they were suppose to be assigned such a trip. Often, such trips are assigned last minute while on reserve. They could be barely legal only by minutes but have not choice but to fly. Or they could go illegal while in the air at which time there is nothing you can do and the company simply shrugs its shoulders. This is particularly a favorite for airlines if they know you have a days off following that trip.
I am not necessarily in support or against the proposed change, but rather feel that it needs to be a win win situation. If they want a transcon turn after an international trip, than pad both ends with longer layover. If not, cut the layover to bare minimum but break up the trip into two segments. They could potentially run into problems where the transcon crew go illegal on route, have their layover extended back at LAX (or not??) which means they can't work the scheduled flight home to Oz. Then QF will probably have to deadhead an entire crew to LAX to work the flight home or cancel the flight. Not sure how this will play out.
Just my two cents.
(1) Many of those that allow these turns are flying for low cost carrier. LCC have shorter and tigher turnaround time between flights. They also fly narrow body aircraft which allows for quick unload/reload. Given that in QF's situation the crew will stay on the same aircraft, it certainly takes a lot longer to deplane, unload bags, load new bags and board a 747 than a 737 or an A320 that many of the LCC fly. This adds to their duty time.
(2) Catering adds more time. Because they only serve snacks and beverages, catering on LCC can be boarded from the originating station but be sufficient for the whole transcon turn. On legacy carriers and probably QF, the inflight service will probably comprise close to a full international meal service judging by the flight time. Not to mention its harder work for these crew since they are not simply handing out snacks, in my opinion.
(3) Remember that airlines "knowingly" violate union work rules all the time. Just because somebody said they have done a transcon turn does not mean they were suppose to be assigned such a trip. Often, such trips are assigned last minute while on reserve. They could be barely legal only by minutes but have not choice but to fly. Or they could go illegal while in the air at which time there is nothing you can do and the company simply shrugs its shoulders. This is particularly a favorite for airlines if they know you have a days off following that trip.
I am not necessarily in support or against the proposed change, but rather feel that it needs to be a win win situation. If they want a transcon turn after an international trip, than pad both ends with longer layover. If not, cut the layover to bare minimum but break up the trip into two segments. They could potentially run into problems where the transcon crew go illegal on route, have their layover extended back at LAX (or not??) which means they can't work the scheduled flight home to Oz. Then QF will probably have to deadhead an entire crew to LAX to work the flight home or cancel the flight. Not sure how this will play out.
Just my two cents.