NEW Australian Airlines (AO) EBA 2005 (merged)
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I think there was a few reasons why QANTAS started two other airlines.
One of them may have been to enter markets where QANTAS could not compete or offer a service... possibly due to the cost of providing a service to some cities/centres.
Now it would appear that there is a move to make some/all QF subsidiaries smaller QANTAS's.
Unions who I understand represent cabin staff in two or three airlines appear to be trying to get the same pay scale and conditions as QF for all subsidiary airlines... or restricting subsidiary airlines trading activities by various means. If there is a commonality of costs (pay rates, conditions, etc) wouldn't QF have wasted a lot of money starting those subsidiary airlines.
As I see it, they would no longer be able to service those routes now served by Australian due to the reason the QF originally ceased flying those routes - too expensive.
I could be entirely incorrect.
One of them may have been to enter markets where QANTAS could not compete or offer a service... possibly due to the cost of providing a service to some cities/centres.
Now it would appear that there is a move to make some/all QF subsidiaries smaller QANTAS's.
Unions who I understand represent cabin staff in two or three airlines appear to be trying to get the same pay scale and conditions as QF for all subsidiary airlines... or restricting subsidiary airlines trading activities by various means. If there is a commonality of costs (pay rates, conditions, etc) wouldn't QF have wasted a lot of money starting those subsidiary airlines.
As I see it, they would no longer be able to service those routes now served by Australian due to the reason the QF originally ceased flying those routes - too expensive.
I could be entirely incorrect.
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One reason that some crew don't go on strike is that they take people like QFR5 at their word.
Whilst it is interesting to hear balanced arguments, and take a breath every now and again in order to temper irrational actions, it is also worth noting the lengths company's (like QF) stoop to.
Like hiring 'consultants' to trawl BBs, like this one, misrepresenting themselves as crew, telling everyone to 'just shut up and take what's offered', 'there's no point in fighting', 'strikes will just cost you your job' etc etc.
What do you think, QFR5, or MrQantas, or whatever it is today?
Whilst it is interesting to hear balanced arguments, and take a breath every now and again in order to temper irrational actions, it is also worth noting the lengths company's (like QF) stoop to.
Like hiring 'consultants' to trawl BBs, like this one, misrepresenting themselves as crew, telling everyone to 'just shut up and take what's offered', 'there's no point in fighting', 'strikes will just cost you your job' etc etc.
What do you think, QFR5, or MrQantas, or whatever it is today?
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QFR5
For someone who only registered in January 2005 your opinions are plastered all over Qantas/Prrune forums.There are doubts about your credibility and your position as a QF Cabin Crew member.You indicate that dissatisfied staff are in the minority...NOT TRUE !!!.I have a number of friends who are both Tech and Cabin Crew and while they choose not to be vocal in the workplace ..they are not happy.They are representative of the SILENT MAJORITY.
This silent majority cover all areas of Qantas employment.While this attitude of management exists the ship is sinking.It is extremely difficult to ressurect a brand that has been denigrated.
This silent majority cover all areas of Qantas employment.While this attitude of management exists the ship is sinking.It is extremely difficult to ressurect a brand that has been denigrated.
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Does anybody else think that QFR5's keyboard has the ! and the . key swapped over? Looks like it to me... 
In all reality, I think the mentality of "roll over and take anything they offer" is a sure path to a rapid erosion of pay and conditions. There may as well not be unions, you may as well put all cabin crew on short term contracts, where every year they re-tender out the positions to any lowest bidder. Where would the job security be in that? And why stop at QANTAS? Lets make all awards, EBA, AWA's invalid, make each individual employee just accept whatever their company is offering them (no negotiations remember!) and to have that changed regularly. In fact, why dont we just make the pay change on a minute by minute basis? Remeber, we cant negotiate a contract or a better deal now, because we just have to roll over and take what we are given.
I know that situation is taking things out of control, however, the ability to negortiate and form a deal is a corner stone in the buisness world (imagine if QF couldnt negotiate a deal with Airbus over the A380 purchace, or the A330's, or any new Boeing). And buisness includes contracts (EBA's, and AWA) between employees (negotiated on behalf of the employees by a union) and the company. So this is an oppurtunity for AO staff to improve things, they may not get all their wants, but why should Qantas get all theirs?
If the goalposts are being moved (by removing restrictions on flying and turning AO into a mini Long Haul) surely the conditions must change to compensate for these changes.
JB
(By the way, what does EBA stand for? Thats right... look it up.... im sure the word "barganing" is there, a synonym for "negotiate")
In all reality, I think the mentality of "roll over and take anything they offer" is a sure path to a rapid erosion of pay and conditions. There may as well not be unions, you may as well put all cabin crew on short term contracts, where every year they re-tender out the positions to any lowest bidder. Where would the job security be in that? And why stop at QANTAS? Lets make all awards, EBA, AWA's invalid, make each individual employee just accept whatever their company is offering them (no negotiations remember!) and to have that changed regularly. In fact, why dont we just make the pay change on a minute by minute basis? Remeber, we cant negotiate a contract or a better deal now, because we just have to roll over and take what we are given.
I know that situation is taking things out of control, however, the ability to negortiate and form a deal is a corner stone in the buisness world (imagine if QF couldnt negotiate a deal with Airbus over the A380 purchace, or the A330's, or any new Boeing). And buisness includes contracts (EBA's, and AWA) between employees (negotiated on behalf of the employees by a union) and the company. So this is an oppurtunity for AO staff to improve things, they may not get all their wants, but why should Qantas get all theirs?
If the goalposts are being moved (by removing restrictions on flying and turning AO into a mini Long Haul) surely the conditions must change to compensate for these changes.
JB
(By the way, what does EBA stand for? Thats right... look it up.... im sure the word "barganing" is there, a synonym for "negotiate")
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What some people don't know is that approximately 6-12 months before AN collapsed, the FAAA offered concessions under their last EBA to cut costs, as they recognised that AN was in trouble.
Their offer of concessionary help was declined by AN management.
Just to put things into perspective before anyone gets onto the whole 'unions are bad' mantra. Insofar as unions negotiate to get the best deal for employees, it isn't in their best interests to price thier members out of a job. And they recognise this.
Their offer of concessionary help was declined by AN management.
Just to put things into perspective before anyone gets onto the whole 'unions are bad' mantra. Insofar as unions negotiate to get the best deal for employees, it isn't in their best interests to price thier members out of a job. And they recognise this.
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AO is just in its infancy with marginal profits. If you accept the 9% pay rise and keep the pressure off costs, when the next EBA comes around, if AO has stabilised you will have better grounds to ask for a pay in recognition of your outstanding contributions and still have job security. AO is built on the grounds that it flys to destinations that QF cannot operate profitably, if you take that away, you also take away the grounds on which it exists.
Re the east west flying, the company can not commit to how much rest you get after a trip until it is known where the destination is, hours worked etc. One thing is for sure, they dont want to burn cabin crew out as they are their greatest asset.
If you deny the east west flying this will prevent AO from flying to many new destinations and future recruitment.
Does the FAAA want that ?? think about it !
Re the east west flying, the company can not commit to how much rest you get after a trip until it is known where the destination is, hours worked etc. One thing is for sure, they dont want to burn cabin crew out as they are their greatest asset.
If you deny the east west flying this will prevent AO from flying to many new destinations and future recruitment.
Does the FAAA want that ?? think about it !
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captainrats.....Isnt it amazing I just back from a trip and made sure to take note of how many unhappy crew where on board !! Well I can tell you NONE .. We had a fab time working together and lots of smiles throughout the cabin.. People like you amaze me !! So typical about your comments that Im not a LH/Cabin crew member ...what because im not bitter like you !! We all have our own opinion and mine might be positive yours negative !! (as usual) I have been with the red rat 10 years and over !! So I cant understand your theory of SO many unhappy people being in the company but dont say anything !! Like why stay..Thats all I am asking I cant understand people woho LOVE their job but hat the company. The company is transport and managment get paid to make decisions to keep the company profitable in turn you get to keep you fantastic job!! What part do you not understand
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QFR5 REREAD
QFR5.
Read my post again
1.I am retired....having flown with QF for 30 yrs
2.I am not negative but merely expressing the opinion of friends who still fly.
3.QF is not struggling financially..almost a $billion profit this year.
4.The results of the recent staff survey reflected a distant and uncaring management.
5.Its great you had a great time on your recent trip.That used to be the norm ...now its the exception.
6.Morale is low or non existant across the company...Have a chat to a LAME for example.
7.In flying terms you have been here a minute.
8.You come across as an agressive management troll.
9.I recruited cabin crew both long and shorthaul in`95 and `96 in BNE MEL and SYD.I hope you are less aggressive in the cabin than you are in this forum.
Read my post again
1.I am retired....having flown with QF for 30 yrs
2.I am not negative but merely expressing the opinion of friends who still fly.
3.QF is not struggling financially..almost a $billion profit this year.
4.The results of the recent staff survey reflected a distant and uncaring management.
5.Its great you had a great time on your recent trip.That used to be the norm ...now its the exception.
6.Morale is low or non existant across the company...Have a chat to a LAME for example.
7.In flying terms you have been here a minute.
8.You come across as an agressive management troll.
9.I recruited cabin crew both long and shorthaul in`95 and `96 in BNE MEL and SYD.I hope you are less aggressive in the cabin than you are in this forum.
Last edited by captainrats; 21st Jan 2005 at 23:03.
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captainrats!!!!
I cant see at all all with any of my postings being aggressive!! If you call being positive and enjoying what I do and also understand that managment have a hard job to ensure that the comany stays profitable !! Well so be it!! A mangment troll ..Like that one as well!! I guess 10 years is 1 min another 10 will be 2 min !! I am not sure about the problems that LAME are going through ! I am sorry !! I will enquire next time !!
Its amazing how on this post your positive but yet people think your twisted !! What ever ..lucky your at home and not in the air with me LOVE !! All I am saying as I have been on these posts your not tied to the gally ..We all have choices ..Dont like it ...Find somthing else !! Keep smiling The managment trol!! (love that)
I cant see at all all with any of my postings being aggressive!! If you call being positive and enjoying what I do and also understand that managment have a hard job to ensure that the comany stays profitable !! Well so be it!! A mangment troll ..Like that one as well!! I guess 10 years is 1 min another 10 will be 2 min !! I am not sure about the problems that LAME are going through ! I am sorry !! I will enquire next time !!
Its amazing how on this post your positive but yet people think your twisted !! What ever ..lucky your at home and not in the air with me LOVE !! All I am saying as I have been on these posts your not tied to the gally ..We all have choices ..Dont like it ...Find somthing else !! Keep smiling The managment trol!! (love that)
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"Thats all I am asking I cant understand people woho LOVE their job but hat the company. The company is transport and managment get paid to make decisions to keep the company profitable in turn you get to keep you fantastic job!!
Profitable to the extent that the employees get repeatedly taken advantage of by management (while they reap the rewards), at a time when the group at large is set to earn $1bn profit, in an industry not exactly renowned in recent times for earning ANY profits?
If you're happy QFR5, then wonderful. Don't, however, expect others to share your exuberance for being taken advantage of.
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Cabin Scrag- do you honestly think if we at AO accept no pay rise this time around, in 3 yrs time the management will give us one???? For our hard work?!
What about the hard work we have just put in getting this company up and running,for example- with short crews, crews who have never set foot on an aircraft, crews who have never been overseas before, having no protection over days off, no overtime for days off worked, the list goes on.
And before all you QF people start bleeting...yes we accepted these conditions as a start up company however we also now want recognition for all the above.
And if we do accept the conditions presented to us, do you realise you will lose more flying?! It will be a lose-lose situation. It's in all our interests to NOT accept the offer.
What about the hard work we have just put in getting this company up and running,for example- with short crews, crews who have never set foot on an aircraft, crews who have never been overseas before, having no protection over days off, no overtime for days off worked, the list goes on.
And before all you QF people start bleeting...yes we accepted these conditions as a start up company however we also now want recognition for all the above.
And if we do accept the conditions presented to us, do you realise you will lose more flying?! It will be a lose-lose situation. It's in all our interests to NOT accept the offer.
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I knew it.
Wed "Sydney Morning Herald"
Qantas toys with cheap US flights
By Scott Rochfort in Singapore
January 26, 2005
Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon has talked up the prospect of a low-cost long-haul airline starting services from Australia to the US and possibly Europe.
But the Qantas boss has fallen short of saying whether Qantas would be the first airline to set up such a carrier, given talk Virgin Blue and its founder Sir Richard Branson could announce such a carrier in the next few weeks.
Amid speculation that Qantas's leisure carrier, Australian Airlines, could replace Qantas on longer routes with the low-cost airline already pushing its crews to fly longer sectors, Mr Dixon said: "I really believe that someone would go for a lower cost [long-haul carrier]."
Yet Mr Dixon hosed down speculation that Qantas could spin three of its older Boeing 747-300s into Australian Airlines.
One problem with the older aircraft is that the high expense of maintaining them could tip Australian's marginal profit into a loss.
"The thing with Australian is if you change the model it really changes the cost base," Mr Dixon said.
"But it doesn't mean in the longer term we may not do it."
The Qantas chief, however, has failed to rule out replacing its services to Honolulu with Australian Airlines.
"I'm sure it's on the drawing board for a lot of people," he said.
Wed "Sydney Morning Herald"
Qantas toys with cheap US flights
By Scott Rochfort in Singapore
January 26, 2005
Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon has talked up the prospect of a low-cost long-haul airline starting services from Australia to the US and possibly Europe.
But the Qantas boss has fallen short of saying whether Qantas would be the first airline to set up such a carrier, given talk Virgin Blue and its founder Sir Richard Branson could announce such a carrier in the next few weeks.
Amid speculation that Qantas's leisure carrier, Australian Airlines, could replace Qantas on longer routes with the low-cost airline already pushing its crews to fly longer sectors, Mr Dixon said: "I really believe that someone would go for a lower cost [long-haul carrier]."
Yet Mr Dixon hosed down speculation that Qantas could spin three of its older Boeing 747-300s into Australian Airlines.
One problem with the older aircraft is that the high expense of maintaining them could tip Australian's marginal profit into a loss.
"The thing with Australian is if you change the model it really changes the cost base," Mr Dixon said.
"But it doesn't mean in the longer term we may not do it."
The Qantas chief, however, has failed to rule out replacing its services to Honolulu with Australian Airlines.
"I'm sure it's on the drawing board for a lot of people," he said.
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All the more reason for AO crew to fight for what they want.
Sometimes Geoff really surprises me, why would you even discuss this issue with the media when you are trying to get crew to vote up an EBA for with no additional benefits for that type of flying and in another interview talking about the 7000 jobs going off-shore when most of the effected staff are also about to vote on their EBA. Wouldn't it be smarter to just keep your mouth shut until the relevant EBA's were voted up.
Sometimes Geoff really surprises me, why would you even discuss this issue with the media when you are trying to get crew to vote up an EBA for with no additional benefits for that type of flying and in another interview talking about the 7000 jobs going off-shore when most of the effected staff are also about to vote on their EBA. Wouldn't it be smarter to just keep your mouth shut until the relevant EBA's were voted up.
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Left One Primary
Yes, I do beleive if you give AO a chance to keep its costs low the Airline and all those in it will survive and prosper, if you succeed in getting more now (than 9%) the cost margin between AO and QF will be reduced, throwing into doubt any growth and putting the airlines future and all those under it under a dark cloud.
The good old days of fat paychecks are gone, its the survival of the fittest in the airline game. I hope you see the light before you lose a great job and a great airline!
Yes, I do beleive if you give AO a chance to keep its costs low the Airline and all those in it will survive and prosper, if you succeed in getting more now (than 9%) the cost margin between AO and QF will be reduced, throwing into doubt any growth and putting the airlines future and all those under it under a dark cloud.
The good old days of fat paychecks are gone, its the survival of the fittest in the airline game. I hope you see the light before you lose a great job and a great airline!
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congrats AO crew
well congrats to all ao crew for having the 'goolies' that LH crew ddint have. when the mortgage belt voted we were always going to have the RBA we had to have?
as for all those casuals now flying..after 30 years flying ive decided to now be casuall too. In afct Im now one of the most casual fsd's you could hope to fly with. I also intend to be part time too. QF wont let their on board managers be part time although as per an agreement we too are subjected to week 8 pay protection so i intend to drop hours to part time levels, so I will be casual part time thisyear and im sure Ill probably do a better job not always ovretierd wiped out sworking for Geoffs bonus or leslies new man? Its all these holidays theyev made me take?
So AO crew give em a bloody nose, hold out for what you know and believe is right and true...dont trust the FAAA negotiators to do it for you...theyre capitulation experts. Fight the good fight and pat yourselves on the back. i for one will not scab on your jobs. A fair adys work for a fair days pay.
as for all those casuals now flying..after 30 years flying ive decided to now be casuall too. In afct Im now one of the most casual fsd's you could hope to fly with. I also intend to be part time too. QF wont let their on board managers be part time although as per an agreement we too are subjected to week 8 pay protection so i intend to drop hours to part time levels, so I will be casual part time thisyear and im sure Ill probably do a better job not always ovretierd wiped out sworking for Geoffs bonus or leslies new man? Its all these holidays theyev made me take?
So AO crew give em a bloody nose, hold out for what you know and believe is right and true...dont trust the FAAA negotiators to do it for you...theyre capitulation experts. Fight the good fight and pat yourselves on the back. i for one will not scab on your jobs. A fair adys work for a fair days pay.
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Overseas Crew Base
Oh Dear Me ...........the plot thickens.
They have now decided to pull out of the woodwork they want an overseas crew base. They have never mentioned this to us once and are now trying to cover it up with an email from our CEO.
Read this....it makes for good reading. They obviously think they have hired a bunch of stupid, naive twits.
Ladies and Gentlemen,
As you will be aware, we met with the FAAA again today with the objective
of finalising your EBA.
Unfortunately, we were not able to reach agreement. I believe the FAAA
will now be organising membership meetings.
The main difference between AO and the FAAA in these negotiations is that
AO wants to remove constraints on potential growth opportunities that may
arise over the next three years. The FAAA wants to hold on to these
constraints ? or only concede them for improved conditions or higher pay
such as additional increments. AO made only $1m last year and we simply
cannot afford to increase the costs of potential growth.
The constraints we need to remove are
- only being able to use B767-300 aircraft
- not being able to fly to destinations beyond a 4 hour time zone change
- being restricted to a single class service NO MENTION OF J CLASS PREVIOUSLY BTW
- not being permitted to establish an overseas cabin crew base FIRST I HAVE HEARD OF IT ?
I would like to stress that we have no current plans to use any of these
additional flexibilities. The proposed term of the new EBA is three years,
and three years is a long time in the airline industry today. To ensure
our continued viability, we must be in a position to pursue new
opportunities as they arise. This is the only way of protecting our
business and the job security of our current employees.
The FAAA's position is that the lifting of the constraint on overseas crew
bases is a new claim by AO. AO's position is that EBA I explicity provided
for the constraint on overseas bases to end at the expiry of EBA I.
Unfortunately, neither side clarified this issue earlier in the
negotiations.
As you will recall, we have offered a 3% per year pay increase. We have
also offered other benefits including:
- payment of allowances fortnightly
- increase in guaranteed pure flying lines from half to two-thirds of
all lines
- enhanced roster request and swapping arrangements
- salary sacrifice options
- part-time work, and
- improved maternity leave.
These benefits are in addition to other improvements we have made in
response to employee feedback outside EBA I, for example, staff travel,
annual leave allocation, alternate paxing and Christmas rosters.
The AO management team is absolutely committed to Australian Airlines and
will not do or agree to anything that jeopardises its future.
They have now decided to pull out of the woodwork they want an overseas crew base. They have never mentioned this to us once and are now trying to cover it up with an email from our CEO.
Read this....it makes for good reading. They obviously think they have hired a bunch of stupid, naive twits.
Ladies and Gentlemen,
As you will be aware, we met with the FAAA again today with the objective
of finalising your EBA.
Unfortunately, we were not able to reach agreement. I believe the FAAA
will now be organising membership meetings.
The main difference between AO and the FAAA in these negotiations is that
AO wants to remove constraints on potential growth opportunities that may
arise over the next three years. The FAAA wants to hold on to these
constraints ? or only concede them for improved conditions or higher pay
such as additional increments. AO made only $1m last year and we simply
cannot afford to increase the costs of potential growth.
The constraints we need to remove are
- only being able to use B767-300 aircraft
- not being able to fly to destinations beyond a 4 hour time zone change
- being restricted to a single class service NO MENTION OF J CLASS PREVIOUSLY BTW
- not being permitted to establish an overseas cabin crew base FIRST I HAVE HEARD OF IT ?
I would like to stress that we have no current plans to use any of these
additional flexibilities. The proposed term of the new EBA is three years,
and three years is a long time in the airline industry today. To ensure
our continued viability, we must be in a position to pursue new
opportunities as they arise. This is the only way of protecting our
business and the job security of our current employees.
The FAAA's position is that the lifting of the constraint on overseas crew
bases is a new claim by AO. AO's position is that EBA I explicity provided
for the constraint on overseas bases to end at the expiry of EBA I.
Unfortunately, neither side clarified this issue earlier in the
negotiations.
As you will recall, we have offered a 3% per year pay increase. We have
also offered other benefits including:
- payment of allowances fortnightly
- increase in guaranteed pure flying lines from half to two-thirds of
all lines
- enhanced roster request and swapping arrangements
- salary sacrifice options
- part-time work, and
- improved maternity leave.
These benefits are in addition to other improvements we have made in
response to employee feedback outside EBA I, for example, staff travel,
annual leave allocation, alternate paxing and Christmas rosters.
The AO management team is absolutely committed to Australian Airlines and
will not do or agree to anything that jeopardises its future.