BA cabin crew over the limits - Helsinki
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Interesting that there has been no name leak from BA. However whenever it involves flight crew the press seem to very easily get hold of the pilots names and addresses. Methinks the mole must be someone in Flight Ops or FOAC.
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BAC above 0.05 says local newspaper Ilta-Sanomat. That's the Finnish limit for driving a car after consuming alcohol. The FA's reportedly said they had "some extra glasses of wine" after dinner the evening before, other sources state the crew spent a "long evening" at their hotel.
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Yet again, another ridiculous rumour milled thread about BA crew - for which at best the circumstances and details seem vague and at worst much of what is read here is unsubstantiated gossip.
I would argue that such limits imposed locally on crews in Finland seem extreme to say the least. The irony in this argument falls on numerous other industries where safe performance of employees is equally or even more critical and yet there are few or no checks in place for such positions. Look at the railways for example - incidents have been documented where drivers have been under the influence of illicit substances, and yet what do we hear about enforcement of regulations after the fact?
This is as much about a media witch hunt to attack British Airways crews as it is about safety. I am certainly not saying that strict regulation regarding such matters is a good idea (it is) but there is regulation and there is regulation !!!
The media only chooses to put BA under the spotlight because they know it will draw audiences / sell papers.
I would argue that such limits imposed locally on crews in Finland seem extreme to say the least. The irony in this argument falls on numerous other industries where safe performance of employees is equally or even more critical and yet there are few or no checks in place for such positions. Look at the railways for example - incidents have been documented where drivers have been under the influence of illicit substances, and yet what do we hear about enforcement of regulations after the fact?
This is as much about a media witch hunt to attack British Airways crews as it is about safety. I am certainly not saying that strict regulation regarding such matters is a good idea (it is) but there is regulation and there is regulation !!!
The media only chooses to put BA under the spotlight because they know it will draw audiences / sell papers.
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Finals19,
the fact that other cathegories don't get the same checks is hardly a good argument. If there is a law, that law has to be abided by. When you'll get caught for being under the influence, having a ridiculously low amount of alcohol in your blood (but over the law limit) won't make you less guilty. You'll be sentenced to whatever the law states.
Our profession requires us to travel and be subject to foreign laws. It is our responsibility to remain within it. And it is not a mistery in our biz how strict are rules in Northern Europe (and most companies further warn their crew over it). So if you decide to break a law, you must then know you would possibly be called to face your responsabilities.
The media, especially in UK, are what they are and we won't excuse them for the unfair way they use and abuse this kind of news. But being it BA or else (it's not being only about BA lately: that I remember of, there's also been the case of a Virgin pilot, Brunei pilot, America West pilot etc) that doesn't excuse the fact of being caught. If you don't stop for a red traffic light and are fined, and the guy who did the same before you could get away with it, it's only bad luck, but your responsibility nonehteless. You gambled and lost.
the fact that other cathegories don't get the same checks is hardly a good argument. If there is a law, that law has to be abided by. When you'll get caught for being under the influence, having a ridiculously low amount of alcohol in your blood (but over the law limit) won't make you less guilty. You'll be sentenced to whatever the law states.
Our profession requires us to travel and be subject to foreign laws. It is our responsibility to remain within it. And it is not a mistery in our biz how strict are rules in Northern Europe (and most companies further warn their crew over it). So if you decide to break a law, you must then know you would possibly be called to face your responsabilities.
The media, especially in UK, are what they are and we won't excuse them for the unfair way they use and abuse this kind of news. But being it BA or else (it's not being only about BA lately: that I remember of, there's also been the case of a Virgin pilot, Brunei pilot, America West pilot etc) that doesn't excuse the fact of being caught. If you don't stop for a red traffic light and are fined, and the guy who did the same before you could get away with it, it's only bad luck, but your responsibility nonehteless. You gambled and lost.
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I genuinely don't understand why this should be considered as part of a media conspiracy against BA. The FA's involved work for BA, and therefore made their employer part of the story when they chose to arrive at work in a condition that caused others to suspect that they were in contravention of the relevant regulations.
I'm sure that they are nice, well intentioned FA's who have made an error of judgement that they now bitterly regret: Unfortunately, they are now caught in the machinery, and they are likely to be torn apart as the cogs and wheels revolve automatically. One day, I could make the same mistake, and when caught, I too will have nobody to blame but myself: My employer will certainly have little sympathy for me, no matter what the previous standard of my work may have been.
I don't think this is really a BA issue - as captcat says, others have also been caught out on this. However, I sometimes wonder why it is that a disproportionate volume of crew affected appear to be of UK extraction? (also the U.S. but less pro-rata). I think that there is possibly a cultural problem here that has come into play. Of course, if Italians/Spaniards/French/Portuguese etc. FA's are experiencing the same problems, but we're just not reading about it in the UK, then I'm sure somebody will correct me?
I'm sure that they are nice, well intentioned FA's who have made an error of judgement that they now bitterly regret: Unfortunately, they are now caught in the machinery, and they are likely to be torn apart as the cogs and wheels revolve automatically. One day, I could make the same mistake, and when caught, I too will have nobody to blame but myself: My employer will certainly have little sympathy for me, no matter what the previous standard of my work may have been.
I don't think this is really a BA issue - as captcat says, others have also been caught out on this. However, I sometimes wonder why it is that a disproportionate volume of crew affected appear to be of UK extraction? (also the U.S. but less pro-rata). I think that there is possibly a cultural problem here that has come into play. Of course, if Italians/Spaniards/French/Portuguese etc. FA's are experiencing the same problems, but we're just not reading about it in the UK, then I'm sure somebody will correct me?
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All this bla bla bla.......
For as fact, none of you have hit on the main point of the "witch hunt" issue.......
To put you all in the picture.....the said FA's were indeed over the limit, and are therefore responsible for whatever punishments are meted out to them....I think that when all is said and done, they will be dismissed. Both knew the rules about drinking before duty in general, let alone in Helsinki. There is a strict 12 hour "no drinking" policy. That said, it did not help that one of the FA's pissed off Hotel staff...who subsequently went out of their way to report to the relevant authorities and the rest is history.
The crew were all met a/c (that's aircraft) side by the police and were ALL breathalysed...the two FA's one experiences crew and the other New (not both Senior as reported) were singled out and the frog-marched in front of the waiting pax to be interviewed etc.
By the way, it's not the first time the hotel staff have had a hand to play in the downfall of the crews...they seem to regard it as a passtime. Especially if you so much as piss them off....god forbid!!
SO in the end, this ends up being a simple story....don't be too big for your boots, or your boots will be taken from you!!
Funny that so many of you are caught up denying a media witch hunt against BA when tied to the same articles in the sunday papers was the article about the 757's with a big image of a BA, yes that's BA 757. This article did include supposed input from a BA captain, but as far as I am aware, there are far more charter airlines with 757's than scheduled, let alone BA. This is not just an issue affecting BA. It affects all airlines with 757....just another example to add fuel to your "witch hunt" fire.
To put you all in the picture.....the said FA's were indeed over the limit, and are therefore responsible for whatever punishments are meted out to them....I think that when all is said and done, they will be dismissed. Both knew the rules about drinking before duty in general, let alone in Helsinki. There is a strict 12 hour "no drinking" policy. That said, it did not help that one of the FA's pissed off Hotel staff...who subsequently went out of their way to report to the relevant authorities and the rest is history.
The crew were all met a/c (that's aircraft) side by the police and were ALL breathalysed...the two FA's one experiences crew and the other New (not both Senior as reported) were singled out and the frog-marched in front of the waiting pax to be interviewed etc.
By the way, it's not the first time the hotel staff have had a hand to play in the downfall of the crews...they seem to regard it as a passtime. Especially if you so much as piss them off....god forbid!!
SO in the end, this ends up being a simple story....don't be too big for your boots, or your boots will be taken from you!!
Funny that so many of you are caught up denying a media witch hunt against BA when tied to the same articles in the sunday papers was the article about the 757's with a big image of a BA, yes that's BA 757. This article did include supposed input from a BA captain, but as far as I am aware, there are far more charter airlines with 757's than scheduled, let alone BA. This is not just an issue affecting BA. It affects all airlines with 757....just another example to add fuel to your "witch hunt" fire.
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Congratulations and welcome Hubbly after your first post!
Surely, if BA crew are that anxious to avoid adverse publicity for BA, then they will refrain from breaking the regulations while employed by BA? Additionally, if BA crew wish to avoid being reported by Hotel Staff then they might be well advised not to upset them in the first place. In short, BA crew are required (by law in this case) to behave to the same standards as other airlines: A failure to do so may result in sanctions being taken against the crew, just as for other airlines.
The media article referred to concerns a type operated by BA, the national carrier, also the largest UK airline (by far) and includes input from a BA pilot. It doesn't seem that unreasonable to post an image of a BA aircraft, does it?
No fuel, no fire, no witchhunt - just a sad, regrettable and avoidable incident, unfortunately covered by the media.
I'll ask the question again though - why does alcohol vs flying appear to be a predominantly UK problem?
Surely, if BA crew are that anxious to avoid adverse publicity for BA, then they will refrain from breaking the regulations while employed by BA? Additionally, if BA crew wish to avoid being reported by Hotel Staff then they might be well advised not to upset them in the first place. In short, BA crew are required (by law in this case) to behave to the same standards as other airlines: A failure to do so may result in sanctions being taken against the crew, just as for other airlines.
The media article referred to concerns a type operated by BA, the national carrier, also the largest UK airline (by far) and includes input from a BA pilot. It doesn't seem that unreasonable to post an image of a BA aircraft, does it?
No fuel, no fire, no witchhunt - just a sad, regrettable and avoidable incident, unfortunately covered by the media.
I'll ask the question again though - why does alcohol vs flying appear to be a predominantly UK problem?
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Finals19
Not correct, there are checks on railways workers, and quite a few others.
If the rules are pubished and someone brakes them, well so be it, if you can't take the time, don't do the crime.
Not correct, there are checks on railways workers, and quite a few others.
If the rules are pubished and someone brakes them, well so be it, if you can't take the time, don't do the crime.
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So, Hubbly, if I understand your point, in order to pass a breath test it is better not to annoy hotel staff?
Because finally, this is the main issue: you must be able to pass the breath test! And whose responsibility is it? Not the hotel staff I think!
Frankly I have little simpathy for individuals that knowingly take a risk that tarnishes the whole cathegory of air crew, and even more their company (especially if, like BA, you have had more than one strike).
Because finally, this is the main issue: you must be able to pass the breath test! And whose responsibility is it? Not the hotel staff I think!
Frankly I have little simpathy for individuals that knowingly take a risk that tarnishes the whole cathegory of air crew, and even more their company (especially if, like BA, you have had more than one strike).
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I'll ask the question again though - why does alcohol vs flying appear to be a predominantly UK problem?
Several articles in UK papers have highlighted the problem over the last months (I remember one article form the Observer, where the journo joined police on what the Law later referred to as a "quiet night", plenty of disturbances and several injured people).
And that behaviour will not improve when they travel abroard - in fact, tour operators specifically promote "UK Culture Awareness" among local staff, i.e. they are warned about the kind of behaviour they will experience from the lad(dette)s. Look at the job offerings at http://www.senorstag.com, where the prospective clients (bound for Spain, and mainly "from the south of England") are described as being "typically drunk and loud" (I admit this is a Stag/Hen night oriented site, but still).
So the BA boys & girls have that nightstop. It's Helsinki, drinks are expensive, but what the heck, they're young and gorgeous, they work hard and they feel they ought to party hard. They have a drink or two to many. Maybe they opt to use some of that "typical" (not my words!) behaviour toward some lowly local hotel employee. Maybe somebody has an axe to grind, or otherwise feels that despite the cultural traditions on some island off the French coast, people under the influence (as defined in Finland) should not be in charge of an airplane, or its cabin. They alert the authorities.
Stand by for ppruners rushing to battle stations. Boo hiss! Bl**dy foreigners, can't take a joke, Hands off BA!, etc...
So after all, no I don't think alcohol vs flying is a predominantly UK problem. The binge drinking culture is.
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Thanks for the welcome Tightslot......
To answer you in short, I do agree with your point that the crew members broke company regulations...I have no argument over that fact. They were actually 1mg over the limit.....so they were not drunk as was reported. Despite ot being drunk, they were however over the limit and therefore subject to arrest under Finnish law. I think whichever airline you work for, all crew shold have some form of manners. All of us, however can tell a story of fellow crew members with bad attitudes and bad manners.......that is just put down to personality.
I do not think the BA crews on a whole have a problem with Hotel staff, it just seems to be an issue from time to time in Helsinki.
On the media withchunt issue, it is a case of certain papers always trying to give negative press about BA. It is simply a fact of being the biggest Airline in the UK. It does sometimes seem unfair, the (biased) criticism and blatant lying/exaggeration that these papers generate (I suppose that is how they make their money...). It would seem fairer if they were to report the issues that go on with other airlines on the same terms, but I am only voicing my opinion. I do understand that BA is the Biggest airline by far, but the fact is that we only have 14 757's....this is not a lot when you look at how infrequently they are used in comparison to the airbus, and how infrequently we as crew fly on these Aircraft. The comments in the papers made it seem like people were in danger of dying (crew included) if they set foot on one of these a/c. If that is not sensationalism, then tell me what is please.....
To answer your point regarding Uk airlines and Alcohol problems.....It is more a thing of culture...come into any flying job in the Uk and the drink culture is the first thing you hear about. For those of us lucky enough to nightstop/stop abroad...the rumours of infamous room parties abound. I don't look on it as a negative thing....it is a part of the bonding culture of Uk cabin/flight crews. The only issue really is control. You will always have people who lose control of what they are doing, it's a fact of life. Don't forget that the Uk media thrives off the errors of it's citizens...just open any paper and see this.
On a point of UK crews being a point of focus for scrutiny by police/customs/whoever....Can you imagine an Asian (Airline) crew memebr getting done for drinking too much??? It's not really a done thing in their Culture........I would imagine that US crews wold also not really bring too much attention on themselves. They are probably far to radical for that...i.e. tea totallers/fitness freaks/too old to be bothered....lol....In reality what I am saying is that the UK has some of the youngest crews and therefore seem as more outgoing, making them targets for unwanted attention. Just a sad fact that we have to deal with I suppose..........Anyway...that's my take on the matter....sorry about the essay.........
Hello Flyblue
I think you have taken my comments totally out of context
I did mention that the FA\'s were in the wrong for being over the limit in my first post. Guilty is guilty as far as I am concerned.
The fact that I already mentioned that they were 1mg over the limit is of no importance to me either, they were over the limit.
I do not think they tarnish the reputation of Air crew in general..that is taking thing a bit too far. They tarnished their own reputations, they also put their jobs on the line. I do not think the general public think ill of all Air crew because of this one incident. That is like saying a tesco\'s shop assistant shortchanged you, so all store assistants are bad.........a bit of a swweping comment methinks.
As for the hotel staff issue....I again only pointed out an general issue and fact amongst B crews..that there is some antagonism with the Hotel staff in Helsinki and the BA crews, and BA crews should behave in a polite manner to avoid undue attention. Nothing more than that.
I hope I made myself more clear now. I did not want you to think that I was totally behind these BA FA\'s. I am sort of on your side on this forum.
To answer you in short, I do agree with your point that the crew members broke company regulations...I have no argument over that fact. They were actually 1mg over the limit.....so they were not drunk as was reported. Despite ot being drunk, they were however over the limit and therefore subject to arrest under Finnish law. I think whichever airline you work for, all crew shold have some form of manners. All of us, however can tell a story of fellow crew members with bad attitudes and bad manners.......that is just put down to personality.
I do not think the BA crews on a whole have a problem with Hotel staff, it just seems to be an issue from time to time in Helsinki.
On the media withchunt issue, it is a case of certain papers always trying to give negative press about BA. It is simply a fact of being the biggest Airline in the UK. It does sometimes seem unfair, the (biased) criticism and blatant lying/exaggeration that these papers generate (I suppose that is how they make their money...). It would seem fairer if they were to report the issues that go on with other airlines on the same terms, but I am only voicing my opinion. I do understand that BA is the Biggest airline by far, but the fact is that we only have 14 757's....this is not a lot when you look at how infrequently they are used in comparison to the airbus, and how infrequently we as crew fly on these Aircraft. The comments in the papers made it seem like people were in danger of dying (crew included) if they set foot on one of these a/c. If that is not sensationalism, then tell me what is please.....
To answer your point regarding Uk airlines and Alcohol problems.....It is more a thing of culture...come into any flying job in the Uk and the drink culture is the first thing you hear about. For those of us lucky enough to nightstop/stop abroad...the rumours of infamous room parties abound. I don't look on it as a negative thing....it is a part of the bonding culture of Uk cabin/flight crews. The only issue really is control. You will always have people who lose control of what they are doing, it's a fact of life. Don't forget that the Uk media thrives off the errors of it's citizens...just open any paper and see this.
On a point of UK crews being a point of focus for scrutiny by police/customs/whoever....Can you imagine an Asian (Airline) crew memebr getting done for drinking too much??? It's not really a done thing in their Culture........I would imagine that US crews wold also not really bring too much attention on themselves. They are probably far to radical for that...i.e. tea totallers/fitness freaks/too old to be bothered....lol....In reality what I am saying is that the UK has some of the youngest crews and therefore seem as more outgoing, making them targets for unwanted attention. Just a sad fact that we have to deal with I suppose..........Anyway...that's my take on the matter....sorry about the essay.........
Hello Flyblue
I think you have taken my comments totally out of context
I did mention that the FA\'s were in the wrong for being over the limit in my first post. Guilty is guilty as far as I am concerned.
The fact that I already mentioned that they were 1mg over the limit is of no importance to me either, they were over the limit.
I do not think they tarnish the reputation of Air crew in general..that is taking thing a bit too far. They tarnished their own reputations, they also put their jobs on the line. I do not think the general public think ill of all Air crew because of this one incident. That is like saying a tesco\'s shop assistant shortchanged you, so all store assistants are bad.........a bit of a swweping comment methinks.
As for the hotel staff issue....I again only pointed out an general issue and fact amongst B crews..that there is some antagonism with the Hotel staff in Helsinki and the BA crews, and BA crews should behave in a polite manner to avoid undue attention. Nothing more than that.
I hope I made myself more clear now. I did not want you to think that I was totally behind these BA FA\'s. I am sort of on your side on this forum.
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Hubbly,
What you say of "Asians" may be true of Chinese and (to a large extent SE Asians), but you obviously have never socialised with Koreans or Japanese - they are some of the hardest drinkers I know.
Having said that, even there it seems somehow much more controlled, and you get very little of the ugly scenes that are all too common now in the UK.
What you say of "Asians" may be true of Chinese and (to a large extent SE Asians), but you obviously have never socialised with Koreans or Japanese - they are some of the hardest drinkers I know.
Having said that, even there it seems somehow much more controlled, and you get very little of the ugly scenes that are all too common now in the UK.
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Hubbly,
thank you for your reply. It clarifies some of the things on your first post.
I would only like to add that I do not agree with:
First, it is not just "this one incident" because unfortunately there have been several cases in the last 4 years, and as you state too the media jump on it every time this happens. The echo from the last case has not died down that there is another one on line.
Second, you must not forget that this kindof news flows out of the borders, and that in other countries people do not share the same "social drinking" culture of the UK. This causes a cultural misunderstanding. I'll try to explain (and I'll base my observations on the fact that I worked as a CC in 3 different countries one of which UK). In the airline I have worked and are currently working (outside UK), we often meet for a drink. Sometimes in the hotel bar, sometimes outside, sometimes in a room. Usually (but not always) the Captain pays one round. And that's it. There's only one round. We are thirsty, we drink, and spend the time chatting. There's seldom a second round except in room parties (popular especially on Long Haul) but then not everybody is drinking alcohol and the second round could be a soda. Being tipsy is viewed as impolite and will make you appear as someone who cannot keep control. There is no understanding at all of "why" it is fun to have 4 pints. On the other hand for example, French are unable to have dinner without a glass or two of wine. It is funny to go out to dinner with French and British people. The French will dine on wine and have little else after while the Brits will start drinking after.
I remember, when I worked in the UK drinking in uniform was forbidden with a capital F. Here it's normal to have a drink in Uniform before getting to our rooms when we arrive at the hotel. Because people will assume you have ended your duty if you are drinking, and that you are chilling out with an odd glass of wine. Nobody "expects" anything different. There is no longing for the "first after landing pint".
It is difficult to explain a different culture because it is so deeply rooted on what we perceive as "normal" that whenever someone tries it is the norm to hear a tut-tut or two in the audience. But especially we aviation people must remain open to the diversity and keep in mind things we do might have a different meaning in a foreign country:
In conclusion, do you understand the bad that the news we were referring to can cause to the reputation of air crews and a specific airline on the public opinion of a country that doesn't have a "social drinking culture"?
Third: pax blame us even for delays due to ATC and weather. Would you expect them not to do so when air crews are caught one after the other breaking flight alcohol limitations?
thank you for your reply. It clarifies some of the things on your first post.
I would only like to add that I do not agree with:
I do not think the general public think ill of all Air crew because of this one incident.
Second, you must not forget that this kindof news flows out of the borders, and that in other countries people do not share the same "social drinking" culture of the UK. This causes a cultural misunderstanding. I'll try to explain (and I'll base my observations on the fact that I worked as a CC in 3 different countries one of which UK). In the airline I have worked and are currently working (outside UK), we often meet for a drink. Sometimes in the hotel bar, sometimes outside, sometimes in a room. Usually (but not always) the Captain pays one round. And that's it. There's only one round. We are thirsty, we drink, and spend the time chatting. There's seldom a second round except in room parties (popular especially on Long Haul) but then not everybody is drinking alcohol and the second round could be a soda. Being tipsy is viewed as impolite and will make you appear as someone who cannot keep control. There is no understanding at all of "why" it is fun to have 4 pints. On the other hand for example, French are unable to have dinner without a glass or two of wine. It is funny to go out to dinner with French and British people. The French will dine on wine and have little else after while the Brits will start drinking after.
I remember, when I worked in the UK drinking in uniform was forbidden with a capital F. Here it's normal to have a drink in Uniform before getting to our rooms when we arrive at the hotel. Because people will assume you have ended your duty if you are drinking, and that you are chilling out with an odd glass of wine. Nobody "expects" anything different. There is no longing for the "first after landing pint".
It is difficult to explain a different culture because it is so deeply rooted on what we perceive as "normal" that whenever someone tries it is the norm to hear a tut-tut or two in the audience. But especially we aviation people must remain open to the diversity and keep in mind things we do might have a different meaning in a foreign country:
In conclusion, do you understand the bad that the news we were referring to can cause to the reputation of air crews and a specific airline on the public opinion of a country that doesn't have a "social drinking culture"?
Third: pax blame us even for delays due to ATC and weather. Would you expect them not to do so when air crews are caught one after the other breaking flight alcohol limitations?
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Hi Flyblue
Of course pax will blame us for being the cause of a delay...whatever the reason..all the worse because the crew were guilty of drinking on duty.
Another flight crew was immediately dispatched to HEL by the way and the flight left 3 hrs delayed. I know that the pax were okay onboard and did not cause too much of a fuss.
Funnily enough all of the furore about this incident has now died down....so it proves in a way that there is weight to my argument that no one really cares about this.
Finland does have a very big social drinking problem..this is why booze costs so much. They are trying desperately to control a problem that has already spiralled out of control, so the social drinking argument does not apply there. Although this incident was widely reported there.
Of course pax will blame us for being the cause of a delay...whatever the reason..all the worse because the crew were guilty of drinking on duty.
Another flight crew was immediately dispatched to HEL by the way and the flight left 3 hrs delayed. I know that the pax were okay onboard and did not cause too much of a fuss.
Funnily enough all of the furore about this incident has now died down....so it proves in a way that there is weight to my argument that no one really cares about this.
Finland does have a very big social drinking problem..this is why booze costs so much. They are trying desperately to control a problem that has already spiralled out of control, so the social drinking argument does not apply there. Although this incident was widely reported there.
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Finland does have a very big social drinking problem..this is why booze costs so much
Hubbly, that statement is so far off the mark that it takes my breath away.
If you don't know anything about a subject, keeping quiet is much better than flounting your ignorance on a public forum.
It is furthemore astounding to see a statement so xenophobic in tone on a forum for people who are truly world citizens and as a rule lack the gene for xenophobia.
It is not often that I read something here which is well and truly stupid, but your post made the grade.
I shall leave it to any passing Finns to try and explain to you the reasons behind the Finnish (and generally Scandinavian) alcohol pricing politics. If they can be bothered that is ....
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Hello..
I am in no way trying to be xenophobic..sorry if you perceive it as such.
I am not saying that there is an alcohol problem in Finland I am saying that there is a big social drinking problem...meaning that you do not wish to have an alcohol problem..that is why I mentioned a problem that it has already spiralled out of control....perhaps I should've mentioned in other countries....this would've clarified it better for you..hence the cost of alcohol.....so please read again before you label my comments/opinion as stupid!!
I am in no way trying to be xenophobic..sorry if you perceive it as such.
I am not saying that there is an alcohol problem in Finland I am saying that there is a big social drinking problem...meaning that you do not wish to have an alcohol problem..that is why I mentioned a problem that it has already spiralled out of control....perhaps I should've mentioned in other countries....this would've clarified it better for you..hence the cost of alcohol.....so please read again before you label my comments/opinion as stupid!!
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am not saying that there is an alcohol problem in Finland I am saying that there is a big social drinking problem...meaning that you do not wish to have an alcohol problem..that is why I mentioned a problem that it has already spiralled out of control....
so please read again
drinking problem?