Un-helpful, Un-Crew Orientated, Arrogant Captains
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In this part of the world we have an ICAN (Australia) or an OCR (New Zealand). I'm sure you have a similar safety/quality report documentation process.
Write one.
I have before.
Write one.
I have before.
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On behalf of all captains can I apologise to FJWanabee for the way she/he was treated by this particular captain. There are a small minority of people, and this includes a few cabin crew as well, that shoulnt take part in any activity were they come into contact with other human beings.
It dosnt matter how much CRM training an individual has had, you cant change peoples personalities, its something we all have to allow for, especially in line flying.
A friend of mine told me an interesting story. On joining a new squadron he was told that his first task should be to find the "********", there's always one. If you cant find one you know its you!!!!
Its wrong to expect the captain to come out of the cockpit to sort out a possible violent situation as a smack in the gob dosnt leave one in the best condition to operate the aircraft! Our co policy forbids it.
However airline check in staff and crew are not "Bouncers" and should never be exposed to this sort of behaviour. Check in staff let us down on many occasions by letting on passengers who are unruly or even drunk. I expect to be told about this but rarely are. cabin crew are sometimes slow to actually report awkard or unruly passengers to the captain. I expect to be told about this in the same way i discuss bad weather with the cabin crew.
Last year I overheard the load controller telling the number one that we had some noisy loud young guys on a stag night on board. I went down(yes against co policy) and told them if the cabin crew had any problem with them on the ground I would have them taken off and arrested and that if they caused any problem in the air i would arrange for police to arrest them on their arrival. Cabin crew later reported that they were reluctant to even speak from that point on.
The commander has a duty to safeguard the crew and the passengers from the moment they step on the aircraft. I treat that duty very seriously and I do not care how long the flight is delayed i will not fly with any person (crew or passnger) who may be disruptive in anyway. I also want any passenger who uses any abusive language to be removed from the aircraft.
Passengers need to be sent a very strong message that they are only onboard at the invitation of the crew and that the first time they step out of line, firm action will be taken and this is what the current law demands.
This particular captain has not only let down the crew but the airline industry in general. I believe that individuals such as these and they are in every airline(weak, arrogant, autocratic ,misguided characters) should be stripped of their rank, because they are not worthy of the title commander.
In this particular incident and i know its difficult, I would have expected the Number 1 to refuse to operate the service until the matter was resolved to his/her satisfaction. You may have caused a few ripples within your company but the CAA would have backed you.
If you had been injured during the flight the captain would have been guilty of negligence as you had brought the matter to his attention. This must always be a consideration when given information by the cabin crew. They are legally qualified to tell you about whats going on behind the flight deck door, to not act on this information is not only insulting and arrogant but very foolish.
To all of you cabin crew out there who do a great job, I thank you!
It dosnt matter how much CRM training an individual has had, you cant change peoples personalities, its something we all have to allow for, especially in line flying.
A friend of mine told me an interesting story. On joining a new squadron he was told that his first task should be to find the "********", there's always one. If you cant find one you know its you!!!!
Its wrong to expect the captain to come out of the cockpit to sort out a possible violent situation as a smack in the gob dosnt leave one in the best condition to operate the aircraft! Our co policy forbids it.
However airline check in staff and crew are not "Bouncers" and should never be exposed to this sort of behaviour. Check in staff let us down on many occasions by letting on passengers who are unruly or even drunk. I expect to be told about this but rarely are. cabin crew are sometimes slow to actually report awkard or unruly passengers to the captain. I expect to be told about this in the same way i discuss bad weather with the cabin crew.
Last year I overheard the load controller telling the number one that we had some noisy loud young guys on a stag night on board. I went down(yes against co policy) and told them if the cabin crew had any problem with them on the ground I would have them taken off and arrested and that if they caused any problem in the air i would arrange for police to arrest them on their arrival. Cabin crew later reported that they were reluctant to even speak from that point on.
The commander has a duty to safeguard the crew and the passengers from the moment they step on the aircraft. I treat that duty very seriously and I do not care how long the flight is delayed i will not fly with any person (crew or passnger) who may be disruptive in anyway. I also want any passenger who uses any abusive language to be removed from the aircraft.
Passengers need to be sent a very strong message that they are only onboard at the invitation of the crew and that the first time they step out of line, firm action will be taken and this is what the current law demands.
This particular captain has not only let down the crew but the airline industry in general. I believe that individuals such as these and they are in every airline(weak, arrogant, autocratic ,misguided characters) should be stripped of their rank, because they are not worthy of the title commander.
In this particular incident and i know its difficult, I would have expected the Number 1 to refuse to operate the service until the matter was resolved to his/her satisfaction. You may have caused a few ripples within your company but the CAA would have backed you.
If you had been injured during the flight the captain would have been guilty of negligence as you had brought the matter to his attention. This must always be a consideration when given information by the cabin crew. They are legally qualified to tell you about whats going on behind the flight deck door, to not act on this information is not only insulting and arrogant but very foolish.
To all of you cabin crew out there who do a great job, I thank you!
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I'm shocked (but unfortunately not surprised) that there are still flight crew out there acting like that after all the high profile cases of air rage in the media. But can I just stand up for the overwhelming majority who are absolute stars. Two incidents come to mind. Six hour on the ground with pax on board after diverting due to weather. All but one pax were good humoured. This one chap decided he had enough. Our six foot something built like a brick ****house captain heard the commotion, came out and basically told him where to go, to much smirking from the other pax - not a peep out of him for the remainder of the delay.
Secondly, I allowed a drunk pax who seemed good humoured at boarding to fly. After being refused alcohol, he started kicking off and making some quite personal comments. The flight crew were fab - sympathetic, demanding that I come and sit in the flight deck to calm down, organising police to meet the aircraft, completing most of the ASR, etc. After engine shut down, the captain was out of the flightdeck, speaking to the police, talking to other passengers, and made us a stong cup of tea. On the return again much sympathy and report writing to ensure the idiot never flew with us again.
To all the flight crew reading this, a sympathetic ear, a cup of tea, and a call to the police can make the world of difference to you crew. (But then again, most of you know that already!!)
Secondly, I allowed a drunk pax who seemed good humoured at boarding to fly. After being refused alcohol, he started kicking off and making some quite personal comments. The flight crew were fab - sympathetic, demanding that I come and sit in the flight deck to calm down, organising police to meet the aircraft, completing most of the ASR, etc. After engine shut down, the captain was out of the flightdeck, speaking to the police, talking to other passengers, and made us a stong cup of tea. On the return again much sympathy and report writing to ensure the idiot never flew with us again.
To all the flight crew reading this, a sympathetic ear, a cup of tea, and a call to the police can make the world of difference to you crew. (But then again, most of you know that already!!)
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Yes absolutely appalling show... how did you cope?
WHATUNION please don't apologise on behalf of me or practically all the captains I happen to know UNLESS you can elicit an apology from ALL CSDs, pursers, cabin-managers, etc ON BEHALF OF the pig-headed monster beer-hag ones that I've seen inflicted upon crews and passengers from time to time over nearly 20 years of flying. And there have been a few.
The sort who use ridicule and scorn to attempt to cow passengers and pilots, alike. I would've off-loaded those passengers just like I've offloaded a couple of cabin-crew that pushed it too far but thankfully it is rare in both cases.
How many pilots behave like this guy did? One captain makes an ass of himself and the thread draws whinges and complaints like flies. Wow... Anyway we've heard one side of a story here, does anyone seriously think there isn't another side to it? Sorry to ruin your fun.....
Try to remember when pilots have stuck up for you and even gone out of their way to be ...believe it or not... NICE. Instead of balling your eyes out about one jerk.
Cabin crew always cease to amaze me. You love to hate pilots and in your own arrogance, forget pilots would perform the same function the same way whether you're there or not.
Just because I'm (happily) married to a cabin crew doesn't mean I'm happy to read the above sort of pathetic crap.
WHATUNION please don't apologise on behalf of me or practically all the captains I happen to know UNLESS you can elicit an apology from ALL CSDs, pursers, cabin-managers, etc ON BEHALF OF the pig-headed monster beer-hag ones that I've seen inflicted upon crews and passengers from time to time over nearly 20 years of flying. And there have been a few.
The sort who use ridicule and scorn to attempt to cow passengers and pilots, alike. I would've off-loaded those passengers just like I've offloaded a couple of cabin-crew that pushed it too far but thankfully it is rare in both cases.
How many pilots behave like this guy did? One captain makes an ass of himself and the thread draws whinges and complaints like flies. Wow... Anyway we've heard one side of a story here, does anyone seriously think there isn't another side to it? Sorry to ruin your fun.....
Try to remember when pilots have stuck up for you and even gone out of their way to be ...believe it or not... NICE. Instead of balling your eyes out about one jerk.
Cabin crew always cease to amaze me. You love to hate pilots and in your own arrogance, forget pilots would perform the same function the same way whether you're there or not.
Just because I'm (happily) married to a cabin crew doesn't mean I'm happy to read the above sort of pathetic crap.
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WHATUNION please don't apologise on behalf of me or practically all the captains I happen to know UNLESS you can elicit an apology from ALL CSDs, pursers, cabin-managers, etc ON BEHALF OF the pig-headed monster beer-hag ones that I've seen inflicted upon crews and passengers from time to time over nearly 20 years of flying. And there have been a few.
OK I wont apologise on behalf of you or practically all the captains you happen to know.
Can i apolgise for the way you have expressed your views and changed the discussion to air views unrelated to the original post. Can I also wish you the best of luck with the charm school!
OK I wont apologise on behalf of you or practically all the captains you happen to know.
Can i apolgise for the way you have expressed your views and changed the discussion to air views unrelated to the original post. Can I also wish you the best of luck with the charm school!
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Phat Boy ,
I'm with you.
There is an underlying resentment or bitchyness toward flight deck from the cabin. eg. refering to me by my job title not my name, "dont do flight deck darling" "all you do is read the paper"etc ad nauseum. Also influencing new hires that we are a bunch of t0ssers. I am not A flight deck, i have a name and fly for a living...CRM is two way.
Most of the time Human factors disguise it, ie we get on , but occasionnally it surfaces, could there be more of a history that may have contributed to this event, after all ,all incidents are not random occurances, but the end result of a chain of events. I have had to bite my tongue and be proffessional when what i really wanted to do was throttle certain unnofficial policy makers in the cabin(crm stretched to breaking point), maybe he had just had enuf. not an excuse to be unproffessional but just another slant on it.
I'm with you.
There is an underlying resentment or bitchyness toward flight deck from the cabin. eg. refering to me by my job title not my name, "dont do flight deck darling" "all you do is read the paper"etc ad nauseum. Also influencing new hires that we are a bunch of t0ssers. I am not A flight deck, i have a name and fly for a living...CRM is two way.
Most of the time Human factors disguise it, ie we get on , but occasionnally it surfaces, could there be more of a history that may have contributed to this event, after all ,all incidents are not random occurances, but the end result of a chain of events. I have had to bite my tongue and be proffessional when what i really wanted to do was throttle certain unnofficial policy makers in the cabin(crm stretched to breaking point), maybe he had just had enuf. not an excuse to be unproffessional but just another slant on it.
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phat boy & Farty Flaps to put a numerical perspective on your accusations and to see if you were actually correct, I have done a quick count on the various posts on this thread. Of course I do not know all the posters here, but most of them are regular users of this forum and as such recognisable as Cabin Crew.
Posts made by CC on this thread: 11
Posts made by CC on this thread emphasising the fact that most pilots WOULD be supportive of their CC: 8
Not quite what the pair of you seem to be insinuating is it now?
While pilots are always welcome to join our discussions on the Cabin Crew forum, it would be rude of us to go to pilot specific forums and post all kinds of unpleasantness about the pilot community.
The same applies to yourselves (assuming you are pilots)when visiting here.
By all means complain, whinge even
about specific instances you have experienced, but please do not come in here to spout offensive generalisations about cabin crew's presumed attitudes.
And I'd like to take this occasion to apologise
on behalf of ALL CSDs, pursers, cabin-managers & the pig-headed monster beer-hags who you have ever had the misfortune of having to work with. They exist, and we are not proud of them.
Not on this thread and not on this forum do we make out that all pilots are tossers. We work with pilots every working day of our lives, and by and large we enjoy the experience.
The times when it is less than enjoyable, we have in this forum a place to seek advice and consolation from our fellows, colleagues amd friends.
We hash things out, we take each other's advice or not as the case may be, dry the tears and get on with the job feeling better because we have shared our worries with people who know where we're coming from.
Posts made by CC on this thread: 11
Posts made by CC on this thread emphasising the fact that most pilots WOULD be supportive of their CC: 8
Not quite what the pair of you seem to be insinuating is it now?
While pilots are always welcome to join our discussions on the Cabin Crew forum, it would be rude of us to go to pilot specific forums and post all kinds of unpleasantness about the pilot community.
The same applies to yourselves (assuming you are pilots)when visiting here.
By all means complain, whinge even
about specific instances you have experienced, but please do not come in here to spout offensive generalisations about cabin crew's presumed attitudes.And I'd like to take this occasion to apologise
on behalf of ALL CSDs, pursers, cabin-managers & the pig-headed monster beer-hags who you have ever had the misfortune of having to work with. They exist, and we are not proud of them. Not on this thread and not on this forum do we make out that all pilots are tossers. We work with pilots every working day of our lives, and by and large we enjoy the experience.
The times when it is less than enjoyable, we have in this forum a place to seek advice and consolation from our fellows, colleagues amd friends.
We hash things out, we take each other's advice or not as the case may be, dry the tears and get on with the job feeling better because we have shared our worries with people who know where we're coming from.
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A few diverse opinions and some that are OTT but in general supporting FJW.
Well here is my opinion. I think you were let down badly by your Captain. His attitude is reprehensible and he should have supported you when you felt threatened. The Cabin Manager appears to be very weak and should have given consideration to taking the cabin crew off the aircraft. Did he/she?
The Captain had a duty to consider your safety and he ignored it! That is a serious error on his part.
Did he make a report and the flight's end, or later? If he did not he almost cdertainly went against SOP's and this needs bring to bought to the attention of your particular boss. Ask if a report WAS made. If it wasn't my advice would be to make one and follow it through. I would certainly try to get your colleagues to go along with too.
IF.........you do nothing you will regret it if there is another incident.
Well here is my opinion. I think you were let down badly by your Captain. His attitude is reprehensible and he should have supported you when you felt threatened. The Cabin Manager appears to be very weak and should have given consideration to taking the cabin crew off the aircraft. Did he/she?
The Captain had a duty to consider your safety and he ignored it! That is a serious error on his part.
Did he make a report and the flight's end, or later? If he did not he almost cdertainly went against SOP's and this needs bring to bought to the attention of your particular boss. Ask if a report WAS made. If it wasn't my advice would be to make one and follow it through. I would certainly try to get your colleagues to go along with too.
IF.........you do nothing you will regret it if there is another incident.
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Passengers need to be sent a very strong message that they are only onboard at the invitation of the crew and that the first time they step out of line, firm action will be taken and this is what the current law demands.
Curious interpretation of the law.
(No. I'm not defending yobbish behaviour by passengers and support severe punishment for threatening or violent behaviour.)
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Engineer
Sorry cannot go with your theory. CC are not qualified or trained to make a prognosis as to the future state of a passenger who is already showing symptoms of intoxication or being abusive.
What CC do know is that intoxication increases with altitude due to there being less available oxygen at altitude, as well as knowing that whilst they are still on the ground and have the doors open they have a ready solution available to the problem. The Captain is not qualified or trained to assess intoxicated passengers and assume they will quieten down once airborne and in this case seems to have paid them scant attention.
I think this was a bad judgement call as all the captain's efforts to get away on time and go home could have come to nought if a passenger had become violent and a non-scheduled landing enroute had been required.
Additionally I would like to know why the captain didn't talk to his crew when back at base either in the crew room or, better still, over a beer.
What CC do know is that intoxication increases with altitude due to there being less available oxygen at altitude, as well as knowing that whilst they are still on the ground and have the doors open they have a ready solution available to the problem. The Captain is not qualified or trained to assess intoxicated passengers and assume they will quieten down once airborne and in this case seems to have paid them scant attention.
I think this was a bad judgement call as all the captain's efforts to get away on time and go home could have come to nought if a passenger had become violent and a non-scheduled landing enroute had been required.
Additionally I would like to know why the captain didn't talk to his crew when back at base either in the crew room or, better still, over a beer.
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Passengers should be screened prior to boarding an aircraft. They are more concerned of someone carrying a plastic folk on board as opposed to 10 rude-intoxicated passengers. They should just refuse them entry till they sober up and if they dont, split them apart in the aircraft.. If they act like kids, treat them like kids.. Very simple. I will never let a passenger get away with threatning violence upon my work colleague. That shows lack of team work if your captain doesnt do anything about it.
Ladies and gents, be tough but professional. Im sure you know all know how to play the game.
Ladies and gents, be tough but professional. Im sure you know all know how to play the game.
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I have read through this debate with interest, and i am left wondering about a couple of things.
1. Do all the postees work for UK based carriers?
2. Do all UK based airlines not have to follow the same rules and regs set out in the general module for SEP in conjuntion with JAR OPS?
The reason I ask is that with company I work for (UK based) it states clearly in our SEP rules and regs that the CSD/SCCM has the ultimate say over pax offloads until door closure/pushback. If he she wishes to offload a pax for any valid reason the Captain/Dispatcher (or anyone for that matter) cannot overrule their decision. I have had to do this more than once and on every occaison I have found the Captain to be more than supportive.
Sounds to me like the Captain mentioned in the initial post needs to think more about the overall safety of his aircraft and less about OTD' s. Nothing can be taken for granted when in comes to safety, just ask any crew member that has been involved in an incident involving violence onboard.
Happy flying all.
1. Do all the postees work for UK based carriers?
2. Do all UK based airlines not have to follow the same rules and regs set out in the general module for SEP in conjuntion with JAR OPS?
The reason I ask is that with company I work for (UK based) it states clearly in our SEP rules and regs that the CSD/SCCM has the ultimate say over pax offloads until door closure/pushback. If he she wishes to offload a pax for any valid reason the Captain/Dispatcher (or anyone for that matter) cannot overrule their decision. I have had to do this more than once and on every occaison I have found the Captain to be more than supportive.
Sounds to me like the Captain mentioned in the initial post needs to think more about the overall safety of his aircraft and less about OTD' s. Nothing can be taken for granted when in comes to safety, just ask any crew member that has been involved in an incident involving violence onboard.
Happy flying all.
Last edited by cheeryguy; 27th May 2004 at 15:09.
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I'm uncomfortable with this thread, not just because of the very serious accusations made, but also because of some of the necessary information that is missing. After a little digging, I'm reasonably sure that I know the company and base involved here, and have some knowledge of the procedures involved.
It is unclear how the rest of the Cabin Crew dealt with the incidents described, in particular, the Cabin Manager. In these circumstances, I would expect the Cabin Manager to take up a central role in liaising with the Flight Crew and relaying the concerns of the Cabin Crew. The CM would be responsible for ensuring that the Captain fully understands the seriousness of the situation, and also would assist the Captain in reaching a solution. In this incident, that communication process seems to have either broken down, or become corrupted in some way. One possible reason for this would be that the CM and/or other Cabin Crew members did not assess the level of threat as being as significant as that perceived by FJW. If the other crew did perceive the same level of threat to the safe operation of the flight, then there are important questions to be asked about how this was not communicated adequately to the Flight Crew. There is a specific phrase that Cabin Crew are trained to use with Flight Crew, intended for use in precisely this kind of situation: The intention of the phrase is to alert the Captain to the fact that the Cabin Manager is making a serious, formal point, and is designed to snap the attention of all involved to the seriousness of the matter: I would be interested to know whether this phrase was in fact used?
The paperwork trail is also slightly confusing. If the Captain failed to sign the DPR, was this fact mentioned in the body text of the DPR itself? Have Security or Safety responded to the Crew about the Disruptive Passenger Report, or has their been any response to the Flight Report? What have been the responses of both the Cabin Crew Base Manager and the Pilot Regional Manager? Have any Crew members actually filed with CHIRP yet? What I'm getting at here is that there are a variety of internal managers and departments that will automatically become involved once a written report has been filed about an incident - both because they are interested and because they have no choice. Given that I would expect the Crew to be irate about the days events, I would have thought that the feedback response would be fairly rapid.
At a small base, where everybody knows everybody else, this kind of incident will tend to be discussed amongst all the Crew, and has the potential to become divisive and disrupt smooth operations. Because of this, and in order to prevent the same thing happening again in the future, all available channels for dealing with the incident should surely be used. It could be said that there is almost an obligation on the crew to do so. Pprune is many useful things, but one thing it is not is a substitute for CHIRP or official procedures. I don't mean to belittle what was clearly a very unpleasant situation for a crew member trying their best to cope, with what was clearly, little or no help from those who should know better. However I do think that more should be done than to complain on PPrune, and that we should all be careful with this as there may be aspects of the situation that FJW is not fully aware of.
It is unclear how the rest of the Cabin Crew dealt with the incidents described, in particular, the Cabin Manager. In these circumstances, I would expect the Cabin Manager to take up a central role in liaising with the Flight Crew and relaying the concerns of the Cabin Crew. The CM would be responsible for ensuring that the Captain fully understands the seriousness of the situation, and also would assist the Captain in reaching a solution. In this incident, that communication process seems to have either broken down, or become corrupted in some way. One possible reason for this would be that the CM and/or other Cabin Crew members did not assess the level of threat as being as significant as that perceived by FJW. If the other crew did perceive the same level of threat to the safe operation of the flight, then there are important questions to be asked about how this was not communicated adequately to the Flight Crew. There is a specific phrase that Cabin Crew are trained to use with Flight Crew, intended for use in precisely this kind of situation: The intention of the phrase is to alert the Captain to the fact that the Cabin Manager is making a serious, formal point, and is designed to snap the attention of all involved to the seriousness of the matter: I would be interested to know whether this phrase was in fact used?
The paperwork trail is also slightly confusing. If the Captain failed to sign the DPR, was this fact mentioned in the body text of the DPR itself? Have Security or Safety responded to the Crew about the Disruptive Passenger Report, or has their been any response to the Flight Report? What have been the responses of both the Cabin Crew Base Manager and the Pilot Regional Manager? Have any Crew members actually filed with CHIRP yet? What I'm getting at here is that there are a variety of internal managers and departments that will automatically become involved once a written report has been filed about an incident - both because they are interested and because they have no choice. Given that I would expect the Crew to be irate about the days events, I would have thought that the feedback response would be fairly rapid.
At a small base, where everybody knows everybody else, this kind of incident will tend to be discussed amongst all the Crew, and has the potential to become divisive and disrupt smooth operations. Because of this, and in order to prevent the same thing happening again in the future, all available channels for dealing with the incident should surely be used. It could be said that there is almost an obligation on the crew to do so. Pprune is many useful things, but one thing it is not is a substitute for CHIRP or official procedures. I don't mean to belittle what was clearly a very unpleasant situation for a crew member trying their best to cope, with what was clearly, little or no help from those who should know better. However I do think that more should be done than to complain on PPrune, and that we should all be careful with this as there may be aspects of the situation that FJW is not fully aware of.
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Flaps forty,
My generalisations are based on 20 yrs and 12000 hrs of personnal experience.Specific incidents would be innapropiate, and pointless. Bitchiness is a way of life in this industry and if you dont think so then you are either nieve or hiding your head in the sand , but certainly not qualified to warn me about my opinion. ( ps it didnt sound arrogant until i typed it . oops there we go crm again when i didnt really need it , but didnt want anyone blubbing)
Please dont confuse moderating a forum with trying to stifle an opinion, particularly if its painful.
cabin is always a good forum, dont ruin it by assuming the MO of the flight deck forums which is normaly agree ,be one of us or be slagged.
by the way its never personnal just business.
dont do cabin crew darling, only marry them.
My generalisations are based on 20 yrs and 12000 hrs of personnal experience.Specific incidents would be innapropiate, and pointless. Bitchiness is a way of life in this industry and if you dont think so then you are either nieve or hiding your head in the sand , but certainly not qualified to warn me about my opinion. ( ps it didnt sound arrogant until i typed it . oops there we go crm again when i didnt really need it , but didnt want anyone blubbing)
Please dont confuse moderating a forum with trying to stifle an opinion, particularly if its painful.
cabin is always a good forum, dont ruin it by assuming the MO of the flight deck forums which is normaly agree ,be one of us or be slagged.
by the way its never personnal just business.
dont do cabin crew darling, only marry them.
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farty flaps that's about the size of it. Well put-into-words what I was trying to say, in both your posts.
Don't do flightdeck, Darling... yep that sums it up.
PS cabin crew forum... yes... but last time I checked at least one of those 'P's in PPRUNE stood for "Pilots".
Oops I did it again, when will I learn to behave with the proper humility my lowly status as pilot demands? Maybe when I start giving a rat's what the old boilers think of my wings.
Don't do flightdeck, Darling... yep that sums it up.
PS cabin crew forum... yes... but last time I checked at least one of those 'P's in PPRUNE stood for "Pilots".
Oops I did it again, when will I learn to behave with the proper humility my lowly status as pilot demands? Maybe when I start giving a rat's what the old boilers think of my wings.