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-   -   Vistajet Future (https://www.pprune.org/biz-jets-ag-flying-ga-etc/616809-vistajet-future.html)

Daddy Fantastic 1st Jan 2019 09:51

Vistajet Future
 
Whats going on with Vistajet hiring and do they still do that 17/13 schedule for pilots or has that changed now?
I heard they are getting quite desperate for crews as well....anybody with current info?

dirk85 2nd Jan 2019 06:27

The salary is attractive pretty much only for Austrians, due to a tax loophole, otherwise for the amount of work you have to do the money is pretty bad.

Daddy Fantastic 2nd Jan 2019 15:06

Schedule
 

Originally Posted by dirk85 (Post 10349366)
The salary is attractive pretty much only for Austrians, due to a tax loophole, otherwise for the amount of work you have to do the money is pretty bad.

Well if they still do that 17 days on and 13 off that wont help their cause. Lots of pilots are married with families and dont like being away 17 days in a row. Great if you are 23 with not a care in the world but pretty much terrible for everyone else!!

SanHor 2nd Jan 2019 16:01

13 days OFF. Is that really OFF?

or do they still schedule recurrent training on these days? LPC/OPC DGR CRM etcetc

Daddy Fantastic 2nd Jan 2019 16:41

Off Days
 

Originally Posted by SanHor (Post 10349795)
13 days OFF. Is that really OFF?

or do they still schedule recurrent training on these days? LPC/OPC DGR CRM etcetc

Oh yes I forgot about that. Apparently they do so there is another slap in the face.

Globally Challenged 2nd Jan 2019 17:59

I think all your leave has to be taken in those off days in addition to all training.

Private jet 2nd Jan 2019 19:36

Unfortunately I think the Austrians and to a much greater extent the Deutschers are in a state of denial about the future, and I don't just mean in aviation...

Daddy Fantastic 3rd Jan 2019 11:09

Vistajet changes
 

Originally Posted by Private jet (Post 10349953)
Unfortunately I think the Austrians and to a much greater extent the Deutschers are in a state of denial about the future, and I don't just mean in aviation...

From what I have heard if Vistajet dont change they wont survive. Im told the 17/13 is too much and the crew are fed up.

I am not 100% sure on this but apparently positioning flights to and from the aircraft back home are all economy class and the hotels are not that great either.

I would be very interested to see how they go over the next 12 months.

what next 3rd Jan 2019 11:32

Hello!


Originally Posted by Private jet (Post 10349953)
Unfortunately I think the Austrians and to a much greater extent the Deutschers are in a state of denial about the future, and I don't just mean in aviation...

Looking ahead with a fair amount of skepticism and always having a plan B on hand is not the worst of strategies.And regarding the original question: A 17/13 roster combined with less-than-stellar pay is certainly not very appealing in times like these where airline jobs can be found around every corner. I would like to ask some former colleagues who went to that company for more details but they have already left...

Daddy Fantastic 3rd Jan 2019 15:40

12 months
 

Originally Posted by what next (Post 10350512)
Hello!



Looking ahead with a fair amount of skepticism and always having a plan B on hand is not the worst of strategies.And regarding the original question: A 17/13 roster combined with less-than-stellar pay is certainly not very appealing in times like these where airline jobs can be found around every corner. I would like to ask some former colleagues who went to that company for more details but they have already left...

Bar the economy tanking it, I would be very surprised if these guys can operate the way they are at present in 12 months time. Lots will go to airlines for a lot more money and far better schedules, as I said most have families and wont do 17 on 13 off for rubbish pay.

what next 3rd Jan 2019 16:04


Originally Posted by Daddy Fantastic (Post 10350729)
Bar the economy tanking it, I would be very surprised if these guys can operate the way they are at present in 12 months time. Lots will go to airlines for a lot more money and far better schedules, as I said most have families and wont do 17 on 13 off for rubbish pay.

Yes. But don't forget that we have the current situation since only about a year. Before that, the few airline jobs to be found were mostly pay-to-fly and with minimum-rest rosters which are no more family friendly than 17/13. At least Vistajet always hired people during those bad years and paid them something instead of taking money. Will be interesting to see what they (and many other bizjet operations) will come up with to keep their crews from running away.

Daddy Fantastic 3rd Jan 2019 17:18

Next 12 months
 

Originally Posted by what next (Post 10350748)
Yes. But don't forget that we have the current situation since only about a year. Before that, the few airline jobs to be found were mostly pay-to-fly and with minimum-rest rosters which are no more family friendly than 17/13. At least Vistajet always hired people during those bad years and paid them something instead of taking money. Will be interesting to see what they (and many other bizjet operations) will come up with to keep their crews from running away.

I agree with what you said but ultimately just like a business a pilot will always do what is in their own best interest with regards to jobs and money. Something will have to give and I suspect it will be Vistajet and not the flight crew who will be forced into a change.

His dudeness 4th Jan 2019 09:12


Originally Posted by Private jet (Post 10349953)
Unfortunately I think the Austrians and to a much greater extent the Deutschers are in a state of denial about the future, and I don't just mean in aviation...


Care to explain what you mean ?

His dudeness 4th Jan 2019 09:14


Originally Posted by Daddy Fantastic (Post 10350828)
I agree with what you said but ultimately just like a business a pilot will always do what is in their own best interest with regards to jobs and money. Something will have to give and I suspect it will be Vistajet and not the flight crew who will be forced into a change.

You think ? I think there are more than enough people on the market who will except ANYTHING just to fly a bigger airplane etcetc. The small operators are more and more a thing of the past and thus available jobs who suit individuals are getting less. Fit into the Vista or NetJets scheme - as an example - or donīt fly executive. Period.

Daddy Fantastic 4th Jan 2019 12:25


Originally Posted by His dudeness (Post 10351462)
You think ? I think there are more than enough people on the market who will except ANYTHING just to fly a bigger airplane etcetc. The small operators are more and more a thing of the past and thus available jobs who suit individuals are getting less. Fit into the Vista or NetJets scheme - as an example - or donīt fly executive. Period.

Well we will see over the next 12 months or so. As I said barring the economy tanking it pilots now have choices and if its bigger planes to fly like you said then airlines are the way to go.

Corporate flying is usually a lifestyle thing for a lot of flight crew. If you want stability then airlines are far better for you.

His dudeness 4th Jan 2019 12:49


Originally Posted by Daddy Fantastic (Post 10351647)

If you want stability then airlines are far better for you.

Whilst that is true for a lot of jobs, it ainīt for the Netjetters and a quite a few other people to. NetJets dudes do have very stable rosters, Iīm told...

His dudeness 4th Jan 2019 12:51


Originally Posted by Daddy Fantastic (Post 10351647)
if its bigger planes to fly like you said then airlines are the way to go...

Think a CJ or Mustang dude earning next to nothing. Opportunity to fly, say, an airplane with an APU and standup cabin ? Anytime, I would guess.

EatMyShorts! 4th Jan 2019 13:20

Yes, rosters at Netjets are rock-solid. If you do not agree to extend or show a day early (for extra-$$$) then you just don't that and they will look for someone else on the fleet. In this sense we are the "airline amongst business jet operators". I personally would not go for another business jet operator outside Netjets, I'd swallow the bitter pill of going back to the airlines, if I had to leave. Exception: find a great private owner who genuinely takes care of his crew: then you get good money and you make your own roster, you pick your own hotels etc.. There are not too many around and you mainly get those jobs through connections.

At the moment I would NOT change company, the next economic downturn is around the corner and quite a few operators/airliners will not survive it.

Daddy Fantastic 4th Jan 2019 16:32

Netjets
 

Originally Posted by EatMyShorts! (Post 10351685)
Yes, rosters at Netjets are rock-solid. If you do not agree to extend or show a day early (for extra-$$$) then you just don't that and they will look for someone else on the fleet. In this sense we are the "airline amongst business jet operators". I personally would not go for another business jet operator outside Netjets, I'd swallow the bitter pill of going back to the airlines, if I had to leave. Exception: find a great private owner who genuinely takes care of his crew: then you get good money and you make your own roster, you pick your own hotels etc.. There are not too many around and you mainly get those jobs through connections.

At the moment I would NOT change company, the next economic downturn is around the corner and quite a few operators/airliners will not survive it.

On the flip side of that coin look what NJ did to their flight crews after 2008 crash, it was not pretty and hiring stagnated for years. In saying that I would rather be at NJ than Vistajet and if I could get a corporate job (PIC or very quick upgrade) with good pay and a 5 on 5 off schedule for example I would leave my airline job in a heartbeat.

I dont really care about equipment and the latest glass cockpit etc but if I did go corporate I would want something no smaller than a Challenger 300/604/605 etc. Dont want a mickey mouse phenom 100 after flying on jets all above 40 up to 93 tons.

Vistajet I think will either have to make some radical changes or find themselves in a lot of trouble.

Globally Challenged 4th Jan 2019 16:42


Originally Posted by Daddy Fantastic (Post 10351857)
On the flip side of that coin look what NJ did to their flight crews after 2008 crash, it was not pretty and hiring stagnated for years. In saying that I would rather be at NJ than Vistajet and if I could get a corporate job (PIC or very quick upgrade) with good pay and a 5 on 5 off schedule for example I would leave my airline job in a heartbeat.

I dont really care about equipment and the latest glass cockpit etc but if I did go corporate I would want something no smaller than a Challenger 300/604/605 etc. Dont want a mickey mouse phenom 100 after flying on jets all above 40 up to 93 tons.

Vistajet I think will either have to make some radical changes or find themselves in a lot of trouble.

I have no complaints in how I was treated by NJE during the downturn.

All the cost saving options were exactly that - optional.

Initially went on Job Share (4yrs program alternating with year on / year off while on 60% salary throughout). My rating was renewed just before year off and I found an 11 month contract on the same type so got 2 salaries and continued with all the NJE benefits and protection from any compulsory redundancy for the 4 years.

Then about 18 months in to the above, they dangled an attractive carrot for voluntary redundancy with 15 months full salary + 3 months for every year of service.

Show me a company who treated their pilots better during the hard times and I will be impressed.

His dudeness 4th Jan 2019 17:01


Originally Posted by Globally Challenged (Post 10351868)

I have no complaints in how I was treated by NJE during the downturn.

All the cost saving options were exactly that - optional.

Initially went on Job Share (4yrs program alternating with year on / year off while on 60% salary throughout). My rating was renewed just before year off and I found an 11 month contract on the same type so got 2 salaries and continued with all the NJE benefits and protection from any compulsory redundancy for the 4 years.

Then about 18 months in to the above, they dangled an attractive carrot for voluntary redundancy with 15 months full salary + 3 months for every year of service.

Show me a company who treated their pilots better during the hard times and I will be impressed.

Exactly. Had friends in NJE at the time and even I - as a "fraggle hater" was impressed... I have seen many friends and colleagues (and myself) terminated over smaller things than a economic crisis.


Dont want a mickey mouse phenom 100 after flying on jets all above 40 up to 93 tons.
What exactly from a PILOTS point of view is the attraction of flying an airliner that big ? (no pun intended, btw...) I had a few hours in a B737 sim for CCC (as it was called then...gettin old) - canīt say I was exactly thrilled by flying the numbers... the biggest I ever flew was a CL30 (17tons) and now I fly a C680 (14tons) these are real "pilots airplanes" and I often get to fly real visual approaches etcetc. Things like zooming out of places at 6000ft/min, flying VFR sometimes, going into difficult fields, going places others seldom do, empty legs etc. do appeal to me, as does not having a (closed) cockpit door. And not having a inflight monitoring system. (donīt fancy tea without biscuits)

Daddy Fantastic 4th Jan 2019 17:29


Originally Posted by His dudeness (Post 10351884)
Exactly. Had friends in NJE at the time and even I - as a "fraggle hater" was impressed... I have seen many friends and colleagues (and myself) terminated over smaller things than a economic crisis.



What exactly from a PILOTS point of view is the attraction of flying an airliner that big ? (no pun intended, btw...) I had a few hours in a B737 sim for CCC (as it was called then...gettin old) - canīt say I was exactly thrilled by flying the numbers... the biggest I ever flew was a CL30 (17tons) and now I fly a C680 (14tons) these are real "pilots airplanes" and I often get to fly real visual approaches etcetc. Things like zooming out of places at 6000ft/min, flying VFR sometimes, going into difficult fields, going places others seldom do, empty legs etc. do appeal to me, as does not having a (closed) cockpit door. And not having a inflight monitoring system. (donīt fancy tea without biscuits)

I just meant I want a plane with an APU and something I can actually stand up in.

Daddy Fantastic 4th Jan 2019 17:30


Originally Posted by Globally Challenged (Post 10351868)

I have no complaints in how I was treated by NJE during the downturn.

All the cost saving options were exactly that - optional.

Initially went on Job Share (4yrs program alternating with year on / year off while on 60% salary throughout). My rating was renewed just before year off and I found an 11 month contract on the same type so got 2 salaries and continued with all the NJE benefits and protection from any compulsory redundancy for the 4 years.

Then about 18 months in to the above, they dangled an attractive carrot for voluntary redundancy with 15 months full salary + 3 months for every year of service.

Show me a company who treated their pilots better during the hard times and I will be impressed.

Well if everything you say is true I stand corrected and will admit that is impressive.

buzzc152 4th Jan 2019 17:42

It is all true. Whilst painful to go through, NJ’s treatment of staff in the late 2000’s was way beyond what anyone would expect. However, that was the old management.....it would not happen again now.

dirk85 4th Jan 2019 19:27

Yeah we all remember the NJE guys happily accepting way below market rate to freelance in their year “off” while getting paid 60% from NJE, and screwing over all the other guys that were actually trying to make a living out of freelancing, but who were not lucky enough to have another guaranteed income.
I would be banned if I said what I thought of them.

Arthur1815 4th Jan 2019 20:37


Originally Posted by dirk85 (Post 10351992)
Yeah we all remember the NJE guys happily accepting way below market rate to freelance in their year “off” while getting paid 60% from NJE, and screwing over all the other guys that were actually trying to make a living out of freelancing, but who were not lucky enough to have another guaranteed income.
I would be banned if I said what I thought of them.

Dirk
I'm sure they were doing what they needed to provide for their loved ones, the same as you. Don't conveniently forget that their year on during the job share option was also paid at 60%, so when given an opportunity they were plugging the 40% shortfall for 2 years.
All the above detail is accurate, I've still got the bank statements to prove it.

CL300 5th Jan 2019 01:37

And the fact that they conveniently fired 153 captains overnight, with a wonderful choice to take : 3 months UK redundancy or a 13 months package; with no option to relocate... But I agree with what was said above, anytime I take my position back, even knowing the Damocles Sword, there is still nothing close ( as a package in the market, expect THE owner)

His dudeness 5th Jan 2019 09:02


Originally Posted by Daddy Fantastic (Post 10351902)
I just meant I want a plane with an APU and something I can actually stand up in.

Plus 1 then !

His dudeness 5th Jan 2019 09:10


Originally Posted by Arthur1815 (Post 10352030)

Dirk
I'm sure they were doing what they needed to provide for their loved ones, the same as you. Don't conveniently forget that their year on during the job share option was also paid at 60%, so when given an opportunity they were plugging the 40% shortfall for 2 years.
All the above detail is accurate, I've still got the bank statements to prove it.

I know people who did not fly in their years off, but setting this aside: Dirk, would you not taken the opportunity ? Life isnīt fair and in this respect NJE pilots are not worse than others (I think). I have been annoyed (and undercut) by lawyers, medical doctors, executives, even policemen - people who did not need to make their living in this very profession for many years. Such is life in a profession with NO solidarity at all and a hit-and-run mentality of a lot of people involved.
Wether one can look in the mirror is another question, one that one has to answer to himself.

dirk85 5th Jan 2019 13:32

No, I wouldn’t have done it, because I would struggle to look myself in the mirror knowing that I am undercutting someone, especially because they were doing that not to bring food on the table, but to retain a certain standard of life, since 60% of their salary was in many cases already better money than what a freelance was making in those bottom feeder operators to which those nje pilots were offering their services to.
With the difference that those poor bastards had no golden parachute and were often left holding their d***s in their hands.

His dudeness 5th Jan 2019 14:37


Originally Posted by dirk85 (Post 10352621)
No, I wouldn’t have done it, because I would struggle to look myself in the mirror knowing that I am undercutting someone, especially because they were doing that not to bring food on the table, but to retain a certain standard of life, since 60% of their salary was in many cases already better money than what a freelance was making in those bottom feeder operators to which those nje pilots were offering their services to.
With the difference that those poor bastards had no golden parachute and were often left holding their d***s in their hands.

Are freelancers undercutting fixed contracts ?

flydive1 5th Jan 2019 14:55


Originally Posted by His dudeness (Post 10352663)
Are freelancers undercutting fixed contracts ?

No.
Or at least they shouldn't, but as we see in the above case, not everybody plays by the rules.

flydive1 5th Jan 2019 16:32


Originally Posted by Humpmedumpme (Post 10352722)


And what rules are those? Or do you mean subjective morals or ethics?

Yes, of course Morals or ethics, you can call the subjective.

There are no written rules that you should not work well below market price and undercut your colleagues.

But please, go ahead, but then do not complain that our profession is going bad and T&C are going to hell.
You might be happy to work for peanuts and have to pay for everything out of your pocket, but many others are not.

what next 5th Jan 2019 16:43


Originally Posted by Humpmedumpme (Post 10352722)
And what rules are those? Or do you mean subjective morals or ethics?

Theoretically there is even a legal rule. At least there used to be rule that a certain percentage (a majority!) of crews were required to be on fixed contracts, thereby limiting the number of freelance crews and preventing them to undercut the employees. I am pretty sure that rule still exists but I know that it is "interpreted" in different ways by companies and authorities in different countries.

And regarding that "mirror thing": How far do we want to go? A vast majority (me included) of business aviators that I have met along the way had a completely different professional life before their flying dream came true eventually. Are we supposed to step back every time when times get tough and go back to our previous professions so that those among us who are "only" pilots can continue to fly? Certainly not me and my mirror image has no problem with that either.

In our company two or three of those "60% NetJets pilots" were freelancing back then. They undecut no one and were paid exactly the same as the other freelancers. No regular freelancer flew less because of them. The only negative thing I heard about them (they flew on a different type than I did) had to do with their 45(or so)-minute-briefings that strained the patience of some colleagues to the absolute limit ;-)

And another "mirror-thing" that would bother me far more personally: Who are the people who can afford to charter a Global or Gulfstream - or whatever else companies like the one we talk about here operate - in the parts of the world (Africa!) where they do lots of their business? Would I want to fly for that kind of people? Could I still look in the mirror if I did?

Intrance 6th Jan 2019 07:26

I like how this thread about Vistajet descended into a pilot b*tch fight over Netjets or something... Professional pilots indeed.

EatMyShorts! 6th Jan 2019 08:51

Ultimately quite a few pilots think that there's a fight between Vista and Netjets. There's competition, yes, but that's all about it.

CL300 6th Jan 2019 08:56

It is a normal trend, when you compare operators in the "business aviation" world, there is two big players. The legacy one, and the outsider. The first one grew from a stolen concept and claim it was his, and second one from the unfortunate withdrawal of a contender and the tax scandal from Austria.
All the other operators are just in between trying to make up a company, based on local niches and customers.

The crews inside these entities ( the big ones) are just a commodity, we tend to think that we are doing the difference, but it cannot be more wrong than that. Our ego is satisfied from a Kiss Landing after 13 hours of duty and gusts at 30kt; but at the back, it is usually the 5 minutes delay from whoever upon arrival that will ruin their experience, along with the extra fuel charge or what else.
This industry cannot make money generally speaking, we are off-setting costs, the best we can.

So the answer of Vista is to make up some money by sending you on training in your days OFF; Netjets is to stretch your weekly duty to 70 hours in order to get you home... It is the same goal, just set differently. At he end of the day; do not think twice, just take the one that gives you the best balance for yourself. The day they will not need you anymore, you will be dumped, with no afterthought.

dboy 6th Jan 2019 09:32

According ppjn it is now 19 on 11 of.��

you have to be insane to accept that.

Daddy Fantastic 6th Jan 2019 10:36

Vista schedule?
 

Originally Posted by dboy (Post 10353251)
According ppjn it is now 19 on 11 of.��

you have to be insane to accept that.

Is that Vistajet schedule you are talking about? Who in there right mind would accept that. You would have to be insane.

EatMyShorts! 6th Jan 2019 13:44


Originally Posted by CL300 (Post 10353209)
Netjets is to stretch your weekly duty to 70 hours in order to get you home

Wrong, or rather incomplete information. Netjets has to ask crew members if they are willing to exceed 60 hour and they cannot force anyone to accept. If you say no, no questions will be asked, your plan will change and go home within the 60 hours (there maybe some extreme circumstances like going AOG in Petropavlovsk where you can't go home from quickly). And if you accept to exceed the 60 hour limit, you'll get paid extra for it. Shorthaul crews can go up to 65 hours, longhaul the limit is set to 70 hours.

Just to put some facts straight.


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