Vistajet Future
Whats going on with Vistajet hiring and do they still do that 17/13 schedule for pilots or has that changed now?
I heard they are getting quite desperate for crews as well....anybody with current info? |
The salary is attractive pretty much only for Austrians, due to a tax loophole, otherwise for the amount of work you have to do the money is pretty bad. |
Schedule
Originally Posted by dirk85
(Post 10349366)
The salary is attractive pretty much only for Austrians, due to a tax loophole, otherwise for the amount of work you have to do the money is pretty bad. |
13 days OFF. Is that really OFF? or do they still schedule recurrent training on these days? LPC/OPC DGR CRM etcetc |
Off Days
Originally Posted by SanHor
(Post 10349795)
13 days OFF. Is that really OFF? or do they still schedule recurrent training on these days? LPC/OPC DGR CRM etcetc |
I think all your leave has to be taken in those off days in addition to all training. |
Unfortunately I think the Austrians and to a much greater extent the Deutschers are in a state of denial about the future, and I don't just mean in aviation...
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Vistajet changes
Originally Posted by Private jet
(Post 10349953)
Unfortunately I think the Austrians and to a much greater extent the Deutschers are in a state of denial about the future, and I don't just mean in aviation...
I am not 100% sure on this but apparently positioning flights to and from the aircraft back home are all economy class and the hotels are not that great either. I would be very interested to see how they go over the next 12 months. |
Hello!
Originally Posted by Private jet
(Post 10349953)
Unfortunately I think the Austrians and to a much greater extent the Deutschers are in a state of denial about the future, and I don't just mean in aviation...
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12 months
Originally Posted by what next
(Post 10350512)
Hello!
Looking ahead with a fair amount of skepticism and always having a plan B on hand is not the worst of strategies.And regarding the original question: A 17/13 roster combined with less-than-stellar pay is certainly not very appealing in times like these where airline jobs can be found around every corner. I would like to ask some former colleagues who went to that company for more details but they have already left... |
Originally Posted by Daddy Fantastic
(Post 10350729)
Bar the economy tanking it, I would be very surprised if these guys can operate the way they are at present in 12 months time. Lots will go to airlines for a lot more money and far better schedules, as I said most have families and wont do 17 on 13 off for rubbish pay.
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Next 12 months
Originally Posted by what next
(Post 10350748)
Yes. But don't forget that we have the current situation since only about a year. Before that, the few airline jobs to be found were mostly pay-to-fly and with minimum-rest rosters which are no more family friendly than 17/13. At least Vistajet always hired people during those bad years and paid them something instead of taking money. Will be interesting to see what they (and many other bizjet operations) will come up with to keep their crews from running away.
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Originally Posted by Private jet
(Post 10349953)
Unfortunately I think the Austrians and to a much greater extent the Deutschers are in a state of denial about the future, and I don't just mean in aviation...
Care to explain what you mean ? |
Originally Posted by Daddy Fantastic
(Post 10350828)
I agree with what you said but ultimately just like a business a pilot will always do what is in their own best interest with regards to jobs and money. Something will have to give and I suspect it will be Vistajet and not the flight crew who will be forced into a change.
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Originally Posted by His dudeness
(Post 10351462)
You think ? I think there are more than enough people on the market who will except ANYTHING just to fly a bigger airplane etcetc. The small operators are more and more a thing of the past and thus available jobs who suit individuals are getting less. Fit into the Vista or NetJets scheme - as an example - or donīt fly executive. Period.
Corporate flying is usually a lifestyle thing for a lot of flight crew. If you want stability then airlines are far better for you. |
Originally Posted by Daddy Fantastic
(Post 10351647)
If you want stability then airlines are far better for you. |
Originally Posted by Daddy Fantastic
(Post 10351647)
if its bigger planes to fly like you said then airlines are the way to go...
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Yes, rosters at Netjets are rock-solid. If you do not agree to extend or show a day early (for extra-$$$) then you just don't that and they will look for someone else on the fleet. In this sense we are the "airline amongst business jet operators". I personally would not go for another business jet operator outside Netjets, I'd swallow the bitter pill of going back to the airlines, if I had to leave. Exception: find a great private owner who genuinely takes care of his crew: then you get good money and you make your own roster, you pick your own hotels etc.. There are not too many around and you mainly get those jobs through connections.
At the moment I would NOT change company, the next economic downturn is around the corner and quite a few operators/airliners will not survive it. |
Netjets
Originally Posted by EatMyShorts!
(Post 10351685)
Yes, rosters at Netjets are rock-solid. If you do not agree to extend or show a day early (for extra-$$$) then you just don't that and they will look for someone else on the fleet. In this sense we are the "airline amongst business jet operators". I personally would not go for another business jet operator outside Netjets, I'd swallow the bitter pill of going back to the airlines, if I had to leave. Exception: find a great private owner who genuinely takes care of his crew: then you get good money and you make your own roster, you pick your own hotels etc.. There are not too many around and you mainly get those jobs through connections.
At the moment I would NOT change company, the next economic downturn is around the corner and quite a few operators/airliners will not survive it. I dont really care about equipment and the latest glass cockpit etc but if I did go corporate I would want something no smaller than a Challenger 300/604/605 etc. Dont want a mickey mouse phenom 100 after flying on jets all above 40 up to 93 tons. Vistajet I think will either have to make some radical changes or find themselves in a lot of trouble. |
Originally Posted by Daddy Fantastic
(Post 10351857)
On the flip side of that coin look what NJ did to their flight crews after 2008 crash, it was not pretty and hiring stagnated for years. In saying that I would rather be at NJ than Vistajet and if I could get a corporate job (PIC or very quick upgrade) with good pay and a 5 on 5 off schedule for example I would leave my airline job in a heartbeat.
I dont really care about equipment and the latest glass cockpit etc but if I did go corporate I would want something no smaller than a Challenger 300/604/605 etc. Dont want a mickey mouse phenom 100 after flying on jets all above 40 up to 93 tons. Vistajet I think will either have to make some radical changes or find themselves in a lot of trouble. All the cost saving options were exactly that - optional. Initially went on Job Share (4yrs program alternating with year on / year off while on 60% salary throughout). My rating was renewed just before year off and I found an 11 month contract on the same type so got 2 salaries and continued with all the NJE benefits and protection from any compulsory redundancy for the 4 years. Then about 18 months in to the above, they dangled an attractive carrot for voluntary redundancy with 15 months full salary + 3 months for every year of service. Show me a company who treated their pilots better during the hard times and I will be impressed. |
Originally Posted by Globally Challenged
(Post 10351868)
I have no complaints in how I was treated by NJE during the downturn. All the cost saving options were exactly that - optional. Initially went on Job Share (4yrs program alternating with year on / year off while on 60% salary throughout). My rating was renewed just before year off and I found an 11 month contract on the same type so got 2 salaries and continued with all the NJE benefits and protection from any compulsory redundancy for the 4 years. Then about 18 months in to the above, they dangled an attractive carrot for voluntary redundancy with 15 months full salary + 3 months for every year of service. Show me a company who treated their pilots better during the hard times and I will be impressed. Dont want a mickey mouse phenom 100 after flying on jets all above 40 up to 93 tons. |
Originally Posted by His dudeness
(Post 10351884)
Exactly. Had friends in NJE at the time and even I - as a "fraggle hater" was impressed... I have seen many friends and colleagues (and myself) terminated over smaller things than a economic crisis.
What exactly from a PILOTS point of view is the attraction of flying an airliner that big ? (no pun intended, btw...) I had a few hours in a B737 sim for CCC (as it was called then...gettin old) - canīt say I was exactly thrilled by flying the numbers... the biggest I ever flew was a CL30 (17tons) and now I fly a C680 (14tons) these are real "pilots airplanes" and I often get to fly real visual approaches etcetc. Things like zooming out of places at 6000ft/min, flying VFR sometimes, going into difficult fields, going places others seldom do, empty legs etc. do appeal to me, as does not having a (closed) cockpit door. And not having a inflight monitoring system. (donīt fancy tea without biscuits) |
Originally Posted by Globally Challenged
(Post 10351868)
I have no complaints in how I was treated by NJE during the downturn. All the cost saving options were exactly that - optional. Initially went on Job Share (4yrs program alternating with year on / year off while on 60% salary throughout). My rating was renewed just before year off and I found an 11 month contract on the same type so got 2 salaries and continued with all the NJE benefits and protection from any compulsory redundancy for the 4 years. Then about 18 months in to the above, they dangled an attractive carrot for voluntary redundancy with 15 months full salary + 3 months for every year of service. Show me a company who treated their pilots better during the hard times and I will be impressed. |
It is all true. Whilst painful to go through, NJ’s treatment of staff in the late 2000’s was way beyond what anyone would expect. However, that was the old management.....it would not happen again now. |
Yeah we all remember the NJE guys happily accepting way below market rate to freelance in their year off while getting paid 60% from NJE, and screwing over all the other guys that were actually trying to make a living out of freelancing, but who were not lucky enough to have another guaranteed income. I would be banned if I said what I thought of them. |
Originally Posted by dirk85
(Post 10351992)
Yeah we all remember the NJE guys happily accepting way below market rate to freelance in their year off while getting paid 60% from NJE, and screwing over all the other guys that were actually trying to make a living out of freelancing, but who were not lucky enough to have another guaranteed income. I would be banned if I said what I thought of them. I'm sure they were doing what they needed to provide for their loved ones, the same as you. Don't conveniently forget that their year on during the job share option was also paid at 60%, so when given an opportunity they were plugging the 40% shortfall for 2 years. All the above detail is accurate, I've still got the bank statements to prove it. |
And the fact that they conveniently fired 153 captains overnight, with a wonderful choice to take : 3 months UK redundancy or a 13 months package; with no option to relocate... But I agree with what was said above, anytime I take my position back, even knowing the Damocles Sword, there is still nothing close ( as a package in the market, expect THE owner)
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Originally Posted by Daddy Fantastic
(Post 10351902)
I just meant I want a plane with an APU and something I can actually stand up in.
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Originally Posted by Arthur1815
(Post 10352030)
Dirk I'm sure they were doing what they needed to provide for their loved ones, the same as you. Don't conveniently forget that their year on during the job share option was also paid at 60%, so when given an opportunity they were plugging the 40% shortfall for 2 years. All the above detail is accurate, I've still got the bank statements to prove it. Wether one can look in the mirror is another question, one that one has to answer to himself. |
No, I wouldnt have done it, because I would struggle to look myself in the mirror knowing that I am undercutting someone, especially because they were doing that not to bring food on the table, but to retain a certain standard of life, since 60% of their salary was in many cases already better money than what a freelance was making in those bottom feeder operators to which those nje pilots were offering their services to. With the difference that those poor bastards had no golden parachute and were often left holding their d***s in their hands. |
Originally Posted by dirk85
(Post 10352621)
No, I wouldnt have done it, because I would struggle to look myself in the mirror knowing that I am undercutting someone, especially because they were doing that not to bring food on the table, but to retain a certain standard of life, since 60% of their salary was in many cases already better money than what a freelance was making in those bottom feeder operators to which those nje pilots were offering their services to. With the difference that those poor bastards had no golden parachute and were often left holding their d***s in their hands. |
Originally Posted by His dudeness
(Post 10352663)
Are freelancers undercutting fixed contracts ?
Or at least they shouldn't, but as we see in the above case, not everybody plays by the rules. |
Originally Posted by Humpmedumpme
(Post 10352722)
And what rules are those? Or do you mean subjective morals or ethics? There are no written rules that you should not work well below market price and undercut your colleagues. But please, go ahead, but then do not complain that our profession is going bad and T&C are going to hell. You might be happy to work for peanuts and have to pay for everything out of your pocket, but many others are not. |
Originally Posted by Humpmedumpme
(Post 10352722)
And what rules are those? Or do you mean subjective morals or ethics?
And regarding that "mirror thing": How far do we want to go? A vast majority (me included) of business aviators that I have met along the way had a completely different professional life before their flying dream came true eventually. Are we supposed to step back every time when times get tough and go back to our previous professions so that those among us who are "only" pilots can continue to fly? Certainly not me and my mirror image has no problem with that either. In our company two or three of those "60% NetJets pilots" were freelancing back then. They undecut no one and were paid exactly the same as the other freelancers. No regular freelancer flew less because of them. The only negative thing I heard about them (they flew on a different type than I did) had to do with their 45(or so)-minute-briefings that strained the patience of some colleagues to the absolute limit ;-) And another "mirror-thing" that would bother me far more personally: Who are the people who can afford to charter a Global or Gulfstream - or whatever else companies like the one we talk about here operate - in the parts of the world (Africa!) where they do lots of their business? Would I want to fly for that kind of people? Could I still look in the mirror if I did? |
I like how this thread about Vistajet descended into a pilot b*tch fight over Netjets or something... Professional pilots indeed.
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Ultimately quite a few pilots think that there's a fight between Vista and Netjets. There's competition, yes, but that's all about it.
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It is a normal trend, when you compare operators in the "business aviation" world, there is two big players. The legacy one, and the outsider. The first one grew from a stolen concept and claim it was his, and second one from the unfortunate withdrawal of a contender and the tax scandal from Austria.
All the other operators are just in between trying to make up a company, based on local niches and customers. The crews inside these entities ( the big ones) are just a commodity, we tend to think that we are doing the difference, but it cannot be more wrong than that. Our ego is satisfied from a Kiss Landing after 13 hours of duty and gusts at 30kt; but at the back, it is usually the 5 minutes delay from whoever upon arrival that will ruin their experience, along with the extra fuel charge or what else. This industry cannot make money generally speaking, we are off-setting costs, the best we can. So the answer of Vista is to make up some money by sending you on training in your days OFF; Netjets is to stretch your weekly duty to 70 hours in order to get you home... It is the same goal, just set differently. At he end of the day; do not think twice, just take the one that gives you the best balance for yourself. The day they will not need you anymore, you will be dumped, with no afterthought. |
According ppjn it is now 19 on 11 of. you have to be insane to accept that. |
Vista schedule?
Originally Posted by dboy
(Post 10353251)
According ppjn it is now 19 on 11 of.�� you have to be insane to accept that. |
Originally Posted by CL300
(Post 10353209)
Netjets is to stretch your weekly duty to 70 hours in order to get you home
Just to put some facts straight. |
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