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EASA Lic for N Reg pilots domiciled EU.
N Reg Ops EU.
Met a guy recently, flying N Reg biz jet on FAA lic.based UK. Keeps failing his EASA licence exams and is being laid off next week due the EASA dictat re EASA licence required for N Reg ops . I thought the requirement had been delayed another year by EASA?? |
It has, 8th April 2017, Euro Parliament approved
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It has, 8th April 2017, Euro Parliament approved |
It has, 8th April 2017, Euro Parliament approved Wednesday, 9 March 2016 - Non-objection to an implementing measure: pilot training, testing and periodic checking for performance-based navigation The actual list of countries and their willingness to enact is documented in an Excel sheet to be found here: opt-out-from-regulations - scroll down to downloads and get "Derogations from Regulation (EU) 1178/2011 as amended" You are aware of the parallel thread, so we may keep only one on the issue? For BA flying and given the uncertainty with different european countries enactments, although my feelings are with the pilot being fired, but I do see the point of the employer as well. The pilot may relocate to outside EU and keep flying as is. |
I have read the link you sent, maybe it is me but I can only see reference to PPL holders in that document?
JetBlu posted a link on the private flying forum for CAA IN-2016/024 which confirms a delay... However we are now 3 days away from these changes. I suspect the EASA reference on the post above is specific to PPL holders because a BSA for them is in the final stages. Unfortunately, for professional holders a BSA is still a long way off. The CAA, for what it is worth, are not even aware that a BSA is taking place, this was taken from communication in March! WTF is going on with these guys? :ugh: |
The CAA, for what it is worth, are not even aware that a BSA is taking place, this was taken from communication in March! Yes the BASA applies to PPL holders only and from what I gathered this morning the 3rd country and BASA are of one or none so jump to your own conclusion re commercial licenses and 3rd country ;) Pace |
Not true Pace, the draft regulation includes all third country licence holders and is worded more or less like last year. The full draft includes all of the information which Europarl have made law. An extract below,
'whereas the draft Commission regulation is aimed at, among other things, prolonging by one year an existing transition period for holders of a private pilot licence, from 8 April 2016 to April 2017;' It is the 'among other things' which relates to third country licence holders engaged in Non Commercial Ops, which is included in the rest of the draft reg which is now law |
And here is the part you require in the main part of the draft which is low law,
Paragraph 4 of Article 12 is replaced by the following: '4. By way of derogation from paragraph 1, Member States may decide not to apply the provisions of this Regulation until 8 April 2017 to pilots holding a licence and associated medical certificate issued by a third country involved in the non- commercial operation of aircraft as specified in Article 4(1)(b) or (c) of Regulation (EC) No 216/2008. Member States shall make those decisions publicly available.' (4) Annexes I and VII are amended in accordance with the Annex to this Regulation. Article 2 This Regulation shall enter into force on the day of its publication in the Official Journal of the European Union. It shall apply from 8 April 2016. |
Personally I would struggle discerning 'other things' to mean that could/would/should include professional licence holders.
Historically the CAA normally release an update on either Feb or March each year confirming (another) delay. This year has been slightly different. Would this be because the individual handling this is out of office until several days after the 8th? Does no one else join me in thinking this is a huge mess?? :ugh: |
Full lawful draft regulation here regarding third country non commercial ops licence holders now ok to 8 April 2017.
No one needs to lose a job over this, as you can see it's been extended another year http://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/...16-INIT/en/pdf |
... but it is a draft, doesn't come in to effect until it is enacted.
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The Commission presented the draft to the EU Parliament. The EU Parliament raised no objections and it was implemented into law on the 8th March 2016 which you can see from a previous posters link above, hence this draft is now lawful.
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Thanks for the link to the document.
(3) Paragraph 4 of Article 12 is replaced by the following: '4. By way of derogation from paragraph 1, Member States may decide not to apply the provisions of this Regulation until 8 April 2017 to pilots holding a licence and associated medical certificate issued by a third country involved in the non-commercial operation of aircraft as specified in Article 4(1)(b) or (c) of Regulation (EC) No 216/2008. Member States shall make those decisions publicly available Member States may decide.... The CAA has not yet communicated to me, or anyone that I am aware of their decision to delay or not. They have insinuated that they might. But so far have failed to release anything official to state they have. Instead we have a circle of Chinese whispers 'my mate said this' 'well, in an email to me they said that'.... It is the may in the statement above that gives me doubt. I say again... WTF are the CAA doing?? :ugh: |
The Commission presented the draft to the EU Parliament. The EU Parliament raised no objections and it was implemented into law on the 8th March 2016 which you can see from a previous posters link above, hence this draft is now lawful. Set clear from the head text in the EASA derogation table already linked above: In accordance with Commission Regulation (EU)1178/2011 laying down technical requirements and administrative procedures related to civil aviation aircrew, as amended by Commission Regulation, (EU) 290/2012, 245/2014 and 445/2015, EU Member States and EFTA States may decide to postpone the application of certain provisions. When EU Member States and EFTA States decide to do so, they have an obligation to notify the European Commission and the Agency. Each country has to notify EU/EASA when they opt-out, some did not follow already a year ago and will not this time. UK CAA did opt-out according to the derogation table. |
I think it's the CAA's intention to enact the derogation, judging by their latest information notice in which they agree that additional year is to facilitate a BASA with the FAA.
https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/modalap...detail&id=7251 |
I am now even more confused...
Trying to get a straight answer from the CAA is like getting water out of a stone....
What is the bottom line then ? Can the UK CAA invoke this ruling even if not all member states have agreed to the derogation ? At the end of the day, will I be able to fly my N regitered aircraft around Europe without having an EASA license and what are the chances that they will get the BASA for ATPL holders done in this period... ? Questions questions, I know, but many people lives are going to be changed because of EU bureaucrats power hunger and not because of real safety concerns ! |
This is the thing though.... because the CAA has said done nothing to confirm or deny a delay everyone effected is now say 'i think' or 'they may'....
I'm not really bashing the CAA or anything... I just believe they are handling this whole fiasco in a dismal manor. Again, this is the same NAA who claim to know nothing about a BSA with the FAA in any capacity. When pushed further, simply blame EASA, close their eyes and hum a tune.... |
After talking with the CAA...
Our ops manager had a very informative conversation with the CAA.
Apparently they are confused as we are from whatever Brussels is doing... In the next few days they are expected to publish a two month extension to the derogation after which they expect to have the information from Brussels and extend the derogation officially to April 2017. However, as it was pointed out, the problem is not the new EASA FCL requirements but the part NCC new regulation that will prevent third party pilots to use their licenses in Europe.. (and that's kicking in August if I recall correctly) Watch this space. |
i) Update on on-going Commission adoption procedures – Information by the Commission - Regulation 1178/2011 Flight Crew Licensing, amendment delaying the implementation of the provisions for third country pilots licences. The Commission advised that the amendment is moving through the Council and Parliament co-decision process and should be in place by 8 April 2016. The change is intended to allow additional time to conclude a change to the EU-US bilateral aviation safety agreement to include new arrangements for Flight Crew Licensing. There is a meeting tomorrow Wednesday in Brussels and I hope a lot more clarity by friday |
UK AOPA confirmed in latest magazine.
Implementation delayed until at least 4/2017 |
AOPA has insider knowledge? Haven't had access to my copy yet... But thinking of print time... Mail time and editing... I'm curious that they proclaim this, even though the CAA themselves have not uttered a word to confirm the delay yet?
If it really is true, what does it say about the CAA?? |
I Don't think you can fault the CAA this time (although they provide plenty of opportunities to do so). They don't have the luxury of speculating what to do and they need to wait for EASA to publish the guidelines.
AOPA probably followed the logical path from the EU Parliament decision on 08/03 and made an "Educated guess". |
AOPA may not necessarily have more knowledge then is available from official side on the web. As stated and linked above, the EASA Derogation Excel Sheet lists the CAA as having applied for all opt-out.
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Whispers are that the regulations re third country are not workable without certain consents by mainly the FAA. This is a ridiculous scenario which I am happy about that the 3rd country regs have been in place since 2011 yet are still not enabled and won't be till earliest 2017 or longer
Sidelined for six years? Why? because they are being nice to us poor pilots ? I doubt it :E more likely they don't legally stand up without a BASA and counter signatures and agreements with the FAA Other Whispers are that the BASA expected in November only apply to PPL flying so the 3rd country regs will still remain illegal on CPL ATPL until a BASA is agreed on Commercial licenses and that could take years There is a lot not being said to explain what has caused these regs to have been sidelined for so long and the real reasons behind that? My Guess another EASA mess-up and like the rest of the EU I don't suppose they know what they are doing either EASA was nearly disbanded by the commission years ago for trying to reinvent the wheel! Why they didn't take the FAA system lock stock and Barrel and adjust it to suit EU requirements God knows. It would have saved 100s of millions of EU money and a lot of aviation a mass of headaches. it would also have lead to an international standardisation of regulations and hence safety in aviation But no that was too simple too cost effective and too pro aviation for the EU Pace |
Last I heared was that PPL BASA will be effective this year. But the CPL/ATPL will take, as Pace mentioned, years. But the fault is not EASA but the FAA
Rumors about pressure groups (some of my sources are mentioning ALPA) that are pushing the FAA to stall these regulatory amendments on purpose in order to "Protect the US market"... If this is the case, is there a way to counter pressure the FAA ?? maybe get the NBAA to join in by noting how many Biz jet drivers will be affected (In the end bit they will loose members in favor of their European counterparts). Is there a way to make the FAA do the right thing ?? |
It isn't the fault of the FAA. Michael Brown from the FAA is working on the BASA and states,
'While there have been some initial discussions regarding the expansion of the agreement to include commercial and ATP licenses/certificates, there has been no formal proposal on this course of action. Should EASA opt to expand the agreement, I’m sure the FAA would respond favorably, and work toward that end would commence right away. That said, my guess would be that it would take an additional year (at least) to formalize such an agreement.' As stated the latest delay to April 2017 applies to all third country licence holders involved in non commercial operations |
Beaver
And that brings the point that if the PPL agreement is complete before 2017 but not the commercial aspect the 3rd country regulations for CPL ATP will have to be delayed further for those license holders as the needed BASA will only be relevant to PPL holders |
Of course it will take longer but it's up to EASA to make the move. Regardless, the current draft regulation now law by Europarliament applies to all third country licenced pilots flying for non commercial operations. They can now fly to 8 April 2017.
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Beaver,
Sorry for the ignorance but I don't know who Michael Brown is. All I know is that this is now a blame game between the two agencies which no one is going to come out better off. There is another threat though in the horizon which nobody right now is addressing and it is the Part NCC coming in August which, despite the derogation (Which still have no official announcement or publication that confirms the delay) will end up with the same result e.g third party CPL/ATPL will not be able to fly in Europe without EASA license. |
It crosses my mind that there may be a potential problem arising in August with Part NCC. The declaration that has to be signed includes that "all Flight crew members..... are trained in accordance with the applicable requirements."
I suspect that the "applicable requirements" is or was intended to cover the issues of FCL Do the more knowledgeable ones here think there is a problem or am I just overthinking this and that these are totally separate? |
I think there has been a misunderstanding, EASA Part NCC most definitely does not stipulate that you need an EASA licence to fly a non EU registered aircraft with EU based Operator.
Also you have to ask why would it when they have just extended until 8 April 2017. |
Ok, but I'm not miss understanding anything and agree that NCC does not stipulate anything. However, I do think there is a lot of details that may bite in the future with unintended/intentional consequences
I'll drop out of this thread but watch with interest. |
You cannot trust EASAs slight of hand or motivations
Pace |
Why they didn't take the FAA system lock stock and Barrel and adjust it to suit EU requirements God knows. It would have saved 100s of millions of EU money and a lot of aviation a mass of headaches. it would also have lead to an international standardisation of regulations and hence safety in aviation But no that was too simple too cost effective and too pro aviation for the EU Many public agencies don't serve the community but just themselves. On top of that, if a guy already has an FAA license with all ratings perfectly valid in Easa-land, no FTO will be able to make much money out of him. No validation, no checks, no FEES. Not good for local business and local CAA. |
Nail, head, hammer right there! ^^
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CAA Delay - May 7th 2016
http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/1163..pdf
Refer to the above link. There is a delay of one month to May 7th 2016. Why only one month? Who knows, I don't even think the CAA knows. :ugh: |
.... Because it is a temporary exemption which has been put in place until EASA actually get their act together and extend the opt-out option ...
It also only applies to UK airspace. |
Until things have been officially tied up and the CAA officially informed I cannot see what else they can do but cover for a short period of time.
Maybe the regulators and all concerned in Brussels should get their act together and spend less time in wine bars on lavish expense accounts and instead do their work which they are paid a fortune of needless wasted EU money to do ? Pace UK Licence Validation Requirements for Holders of ICAO Annex 1 Flight Crew Licences 1. The Civil Aviation Authority (“the CAA”), on behalf of the United Kingdom, pursuant to article 14(4) of Regulation (EC) No. 216/2008, exempts any holder of a pilot licence issued in compliance with the requirements of Annex 1 to the Chicago Convention by a third country, from the requirements of paragraph A of Annex III to Commission Regulation (EU) No.1178/2011 concerning validation of licences by the United Kingdom Civil Aviation Authority as competent authority, where: a. There is no agreement concluded between the EU and the third country covering pilot licences; and b. The licence holder does not comply with the validation requirements of Annex III; and c. The holder wishes to exercise the privileges of the licence on a flight which is not for commercial purposes in an aircraft specified in Article 4(1) a, b or c of Regulation (EC) No. 216/2008; and d. Aircraft operation is conducted within UK airspace. 2. This Exemption has effect from 8 April 2016 until 7 May 2016, or until a derogation under Article 14(6) Regulation (EC) No. 216/2008 applies, whichever is the earlier. S Baugh for the Civil Aviation Authority 7 April 2016 Explanatory Note: Temporary exemption from the requirements of Regulation (EU) No. 1178/2011 Annex III requiring the holders of ICAO Annex 1 flight crew licence holders to have their licences validated. This will enable continued operations pending confirmation of extension to 8 April 2017 of the EU Commission opt-out and subsequent UK derogation from the requirements specified in Regulation (EU) No. 1178/2011 Annex III. The latest version of this document is available in electronic format at Publications | UK Civil Aviation Authority, where you may also register for e-mail notification of amendments. 7 April 2016 Page 1 of 1 |
EASA 1 Year Delay
We knew anyway there was yet another delay and NAA's could opt out. When it arrives on the EASA website Doc 2016/539
"COMMISSION REGULATION (EU) 2016/539 of 6 April 2016 amending Regulation (EU) No 1178/2011 as regards pilot training, testing and periodic checking for performance-based navigation" -Contained therein- Page L91/1 " (5) The period during which Member States may decide not to apply the provisions of Regulation (EU) No 1178/2011 in their territory to pilots holding a licence and associated medical certificate issued by a third country involved in the non-commercial operation of certain aircraft should be extended, because of the ongoing negotiations of the Union with certain third countries aimed at facilitating the conversion of such licences and medical certificates. It should be clarified that, where a Member State takes or has taken such a decision, it should publish that decision in an appropriate manner which allows all parties concerned to take note of it and ensures that the requirements of transparency and legal certainty are fulfilled." -And- Page 91/3 "(3) paragraph 4 of Article 12 is replaced by the following: ‘4. By way of derogation from paragraph 1, Member States may decide not to apply the provisions of this Regulation until 8 April 2017 to pilots holding a licence and associated medical certificate issued by a third country involved in the non-commercial operation of aircraft as specified in Article 4(1)(b) or (c) of Regulation (EC) No 216/2008. Member States shall make those decisions publicly available.’" Understanding now, the UK CAA have not seen this document themselves yet, or are not aware of it (!) and issued a one month delay until they have further news. Does that make sense to folks? :ugh: |
the UK CAA have not seen this document themselves yet, or are not aware of it ( That change was voted by the commission weeks ago Pace |
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