Part NCC Stuff
 

Hi All

What with all the changes coming into force soon it seems FAA ATP's pilots will not longer be able to fly private aircraft based in the UK.

I know of someone in this situation and could anyone advise the easiest route for them to be able to continue to fly their Private Jet (Multi Crew) based out of the UK, it is a purely private operation so just really looking at the quickest cheapest option.

Spam

If the owner agrees to register the operation outside Europe, set-up a foreign operator, e.g.:

In the US:
Our best advised solution ~ USA Flight Operators

or in Morocco:
Problem | Papa Charly Aviation Ltd

Should the owner not wish that solution, a licence conversion is most likely to be the only other option.
I heard today that the April 8 deadline could be further delayed by another year or more though.

Let's wait for the Brexit :D

Third Country FCL issues more than likely delayed (see https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33...ice2016024.pdf) still to be confirmed, delay date TBA, the CAA claim they know nothing so far :D

Part NCC is another animal, slated for August (??) unlikey to be a delay there...

Part NCC
Having now attended a workshop it did appear that there are quite a few details that don't seem to have been highlighted which could affect Operators. I won't even go into the amount of paperwork, auditing, and compliance required.

For third country registered aircraft when you sign the declaration you are agreeing to comply with PART NCC regulations anywhere in the world. So you could end up flying a US registered aircraft in the US but having to comply with both FAR's and EASA. "Hopefully" if any conflicts and you take the most restrictive you "should" be OK.

On the 26th August you would have to apply the FTL and Factored Runway of the State of Operation as at the moment EASA have not created any rules. When they do you would have to comply. At the moment, and I'm not a pilot, this would not seem to cause an issue for private operations.

It seems possible that under Part NCC, to use the US aircraft example, you could not use a freelance US pilot, in the US, on a US aircraft unless they had EU licences! Maybe I'm wrong.

I do wonder what other details are hidden in the legislation as I'm not a lawyer.

However, no choice it has to be done
Mike Echo

It seems to me that many companies offering workshops / legal seminars etc. are trying to use FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt) to convince private aircraft to buy their (management, in this case) services - despite that, in my opinion, nothing will happen for the next several years at least. Remember EU-ETS?

Absolutely.

In this context: EASA will soon offer a template OM-A for non complex NCC operators. For free. If you attend the AERO in EDNY and the seminar by AOPA, then this might be of interest:

https://aopa.de/aktuell/ops-ncc-do-i...-der-aero.html

Several German soon-to-be-NCCs have teamed up with AOPA and IDRF (Interessengemeinschaft der regionalen Flugplätze - the german association of regional airports), EASA, the swedish CAA and the German LBA and have crafted a template OM-A, which is right now circulating within EASA for final comments. This OMA will be EASA compliant and thus a national CAA will hardly be able to reject it. It is high time that we (NCCs) participate way more in these matters, as the lobbyists do "plough their fields". EBAA are of now help, as they are - IMHO - hopelessly on the side of management companies and don´t want small ops to survive.

Totally Agree with the F.U.D. and have already had offers of "help" for quite eye watering sums of money. It's not that that bothers me too much but what I don't want is for our aircraft to be grounded and having to explain it to our owner without him being briefed.
I'm not convinced, like Booglebox, that nothing will happen as it is the best opportunity for years for EASA to jump on and regulate the Third Country Operators but I'm getting old and cynical.
The Isle of Man and now AOPA are producing templates for their operators but none of the other Authorities that I know are.

EBAA do seem to act more like an association for Management Companies but I'm at a loss how NCC's could work together

Interesting times over the next 6 months.

We took some money in our hands, employed a guy to write the manual and are involve ourselfs - that means to attend meetings and cross read the manual as it evolves and give our input towards EASA and the author. Our experience is that the national CAAs and EASA are quite thankful to get some feedback and involvement. They often simply don´t know how and what we do. Lufthansa is always there, BigAirlines and the likes - we are not. Our fault.

We NCCs have allowed wicked people like the EBAA to speak for us way too long and part of the problems in terms of overregulation is clearly our fault as we have not involved ourselfes. NetJets and others surely are represented (thru EBAA, have a look at their member list). Ask yourself why there is the plan to make 48 hrs of sim training mandatory within 3 years.
Hint: the guy who sits in several committees for GAMA is also working for Flight Safety....

Lets face it: thats how things are done in our new brave world.


I can say, the German AOPA guy, Michael Erb and the guy from IDRF, Thomas Mayer, are a massive help and both are "pushers" towards less regulation and regs that make sense. NOW is a critical time - involve yourself.

And let me add one thing: most of "us" have no idea what comes at them and seem to think we need "approval" - we don´t. You do give a statement to the CAA, thats it. Of course you need to be able to back that statement up with a structure.

The whole NCC process, albeit messy, was started to create a level playing field and get rid of the cowboys who think they know best (" We have done it like that for years! so why do we need to change")... So if the industry is cleaning things up themselves than it will become even easier. And it is about time as I have seen too often attitude win over reason in our side of the industry and even worse seen too many owners push the pointy end to do stuff they shouldn't be doing :)

We will slowly see the flags of conveniences being pushed out and it is only waiting for the rules on economical ownership on off shore entities to be pushed through and we almost become a normal industry ;)

Even with all these goodies of IDRF to be handed out like manuals etc: DO NOT sign the letter of compliance before getting proper legal advice! The only one who will be happy when YOU sign it is your boss... And as long as the aircraft is owned through a leasing structure or an off shore entity YOU will be screwed if anything happens not your boss. So either get a pay raise or the best insurance in town but do not sign the letter unless you have talked to a lawyer (hint: if your boss pays the lawyer it might not be the right one for real independent advice. Another hint: if your lawyer does something else and aviation on the side he is not the guy to talk to!)

All regulation and laws are developed with the best intentions. NCC is a adoption of ICAO ANNEX 6 and all EASA has done is adopt it. The FAA has flat out ignored it and smaller countries will implement it.
What really upsets me is the capilization of all safety related regulation in industry today.
For example the Health and Safety industry is a billion plus money pit that does nothing more than apply common sense. i.e. Signage to hold a hand rails using stairs.

This is what exactly happened here, a good intention has spurned a huge industry, and companies and individuals are now looking to capitalize on the regulation. An example, is the now retired CAA experts that can go and consult.

I personally agree with NCC and what it can offer but authorities should be mandating a formula that we can all use to help us implement and pass on to the owners, because that is what they want. Cowboy outfits are usually instances of bosses ruling the operation.

Management companies have basically seen this as a blank check. This does not mean that there operations are safer and better than most of the one man bands. What they offer is a broad scope compliance, but these things are as only as good as the people following the regulation. All paper can be fudged what happens in real life is completely different. If they wanted to regulate we would have an inspector on every flight in the jump seat, or on the floor.
What I have learned, especially from Europe, is that they take regulation and dump it in the industry and wait for the waves to stop. They have no idea of the ramifications and damage they do.
What will NCC do? Basically it will be another paper, dust gathering exercise that will cost money to operations and shrink the industry further.
The die hards, as myself will do all we can to comply and do it cost effectively but there will come a time where it will dawn in the owners that owning and flying privately is not cost effective and operationally effective and give it all up as a bad idea.

Being part of an organization like EBAA is nothing more than a marketing tool for mangament and AOC operators and the standard line from these people, who you pay a huge membership fee to, is to use a management company.
We don't have a combined voice is because we are a motley crew of, in house owner operators that want to be left alone and do our thing. We don't want to be part of a bigger voice, as we like the small and quiet existence we lead, inconspicuous!

As I am part of a handling company as well, I have the advantage of seeing the different types of operations come though, and let me tell you, the private guys are always more professional and more courteous and there equipment and operation, better than the AOC and mangaged (multi crew) operations.
They seem to take more pride and care of there passengers and equipment than guys that are just there as pilots in a seat.
That's my observation and opinion so don't get all heated if you don't agree.
We can moan about what's happening and we an even push back but it will just make your life miserable.

When you think how so many non-EU registered aircraft drift around Europe and in and out of Europe with ostensibly no definitive 'home base' country, how on earth does a national civil aviation authority within the EASA zone track and monitor who is and who isn't based in their territory of responsibility? 90% of the time, they won't have a clue how to even contact the operator, let alone the owner of such jets with most being on registers of convenience, leased by one party to another, managed by someone else, titled to a different entity etc. etc.

Would love to see the UK CAA try and call up the bloke in charge of that Aruban/Isle of Man/Guernsey/Cayman etc. etc. jet, owned ultimately by a Russian, operated say by some Swiss outfit and spending much of it's life around London, to see if they've declared their Part-NCC compliance - good luck mate! And if they do wander over on the ramp one day at Luton to ask the crew, 'where are you based?' they just say 'USA', 'Dubai', wherever.....certainly not in Europe.

Well said, but in todays environment we can´t sustain this attitude.

Having done both, I agree. AOC operators have a tendency to be real cheap fukcs and this reflects on every aspect in the operation. If one tries to go the extra step as a pilot, he´ll often end up on the toes of somebody else. been there, done that...

Hi there

Got a job offer on a N plane, "based" in Europe (the hangar is in Europe...) flying worldwide, American AOC, part 91.

Timing is pretty bad with this Part NCC coming in force in a August

Will this plane be able to continue its operations or not ?
With FAA pilots ?
I can't found the answer, some say yes, others no...

Part 91 AOC. Are you sure ?

That's what i've been told.

To paraphrase a recent email i received from a learned friend......CAA ..... Third Country Licensing.......EASA.......Part NCC........Left Arm......Right Arm.......Elbow........Arses.......Nuff said.

For the sake of a laugh (not very funny), call the CAA FCL lot and ask them about the Bilateral Safety Agreement and the delay re having to possess a validation if you are a third country licence holder......"Err...the bilateral what.....uh? I, erm.....we at the CAA......errr.....sorry, third country eh? Validation for erm....huh??"

HOPELESS ...... bloody hopeless!! Oh well, its not like I have a separate OPC check ride lined up for the 9th April, in order to get a validation or anything.....oh!! THANKS oh ye profit making CAA!!!! :D:D:ugh::ugh::suspect:

Bunch of :mad:

this is confusing, indeed...
I come from easa land.

So if you fly under part 91, you can NOT have an AOC.

Part 91 is private operations. It covers private aircraft of all types, from Pipers up to A380s if they are operated privately, that is if the operator does not "hold out" for hire. If I were to advertise flights online or in any medium in an aircraft, as an AOC does, I should need to be a part 135 operation.
A part 91 operation and an AOC operation are two completely different things.

Ok, and this part 91 operations are under the radar of the Easa.

This is the problem...

Will a N plane based in europe be able to operate withh FAA pilots after August ?

No a part 91 operator is not "under the radar" of EASA. They have to comply with all applicable regulations pertaining to FAR part 91 (private flights not for hire) as well as any applicable regulations in whatever foreign country they may be flying in at the moment.
As for your other question. If the operator of the aircraft is not based in EASA land then they can operate the aircraft as they would anywhere else in the world. It does not matter where the owner lives or where the aircraft is stationed at that present time, as long as the operator's base of operations is outside of Europe then they can use FAA pilots. If the operator is a management company based in Europe then it becomes a problem.

g450cpt

I'm a bit lost know.
 

While reading this post and the tread concerning the N reg pilots flying around Europe, It's getting me confused.

Considering the deadline for the EASA licenses has been pushed (still waiting for the official announcement to arrive before May 7th), Can someone explain to me, in layman terms, how does part NCC regulations now effect the pilots who are flying the part NCC compliant aircraft ??

Basically, after this delay, can I still fly an N reg plane, based in Europe, after 8 of August, under part NCC, still using my FAA ticket ?? and if not then why ?

Thanks in advance to everyone who answer...

I tried to understand that myself.
I'm done trying to now.

Will see

CAA have issued an updated opt-out on licencing here:

http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/1171.pdf

Paragraph 5 is the relevant one - only extends to August 2016 if "the pilot receives any remuneration or other valuable consideration for their services" - I guess that ties in the with the implementation of Part-NCC??

I don't see the relevance of the part NCC August date for this regulation if you are paid. Part NCC has nothing to do with holding an EASA licence or validation of a third country licence so it's laughable to see it included with the document.

I suspect they will be sneaking licence requirements through with Part-NCC?? Why else would they only delay until August?

If you read IN-2016/041 you will see it is only binding to UK airspace... my question now is, we have say France who have not delayed and you want to fly from the UK to Spain... is your flight through France now illegal because you do not hold a validation/Part-FCL?? same applies to a tech stop in France.

The CAA are telling me if you have a SAFA check (lets say now after August 25th) and do not have a validation or Part-FCL.... your plane will be detained until the crew have a relevant validation/licence.... :D

Thoughts.........

Interesting. Who told you that at the CAA ?

Maybe they are waiting for the results of the Brexit referendum in June, I am guessing but if the UK leave the EU all the licensing will possibly change again.

That's wishful thinking.
Even If the Brexit will happen (And I do hope it will), the UK CAA will continue to be part of EASA or at least follow EASA guidelines because that will be the easiest thing to do for them.

It seems that I can't get a straight answer from anyone nowhere. I'm still trying to understand which part of part-NCC which suppose to be dealing only with operating a non commercial complex aircraft suddenly became a limitation to 3rd country pilots ?

Or in the words of someone I just spoke to in the FAA ".. one of those sleek bastards manged to sneak this in under our noses..."

Someflyer, you have my sympathies. You won't find anything that states that part NCC includes 3rd country licence restrictions, and that's because there isn't anything. Part NCC has nothing to do with licences although certain individuals have jumped on the bandwagon to include it which they most definitely should not.
It's good you have called the FAA, good to get them involved in this rubbish, maybe you could knock it higher up there in their legal department ?

There are currently two completely different statements from Brussels and the UK CAA. According to a working group of third country licenced pilots the team in Brussels responsible for the derogation meant for it to be EU wide and not airspace or country restrictive. Also they have stated that all pilots paid or unpaid in private operations are allowed to fly unrestricted until at least 8th April 2017.
This is in writing and many of the third country licenced pilots in this situation have had visibility of the emails from the MEP's responsible for the regulation assuring them legally that they are fine to fly. Should you wish a copy of this them pm your email address as this information can hardly be argued with in any court of law. Print it out, and take it with you on your flights. The MEP has given permission for this information to be shared and for them to be contacted if necessary for verbal confirmation.

Beaver,

Thank you for this info. I will PM you shortly to get copies of the MEP's mails. I've just got a termination of contract letter citing part NCC as the main cause and I'm absolutely livid.

If i'm getting sacked, the least the boss can do is to tell it straight and not hide behind some misinterpreted regulations.


There is too much confusion about who and what it's becoming (Sorry, it is already) an absurd........

I was really going to keep out of this but a couple of things came to mind;
The FAA will have no interest whatsoever in what happens in EASA land.
FAR 91.Subpart H, addresses the U.S. commitment to the Treaty. Specifically 91.703(a)(2) states: “When within a foreign country, comply with the regulations relating to the flight and manoeuvre of aircraft there in force;”
Basically U.S. operators are required by FAR to operate in compliance with the requirements where operations take place.
To the FAA the aircraft and crew are fully certified and qualified - which ends their oversight. The fact that EASA are adding their own requirements potentially grounding third country if they feel like it would have to be taken to an even higher level than the FAA and get Lawyers involved. Mainly US pressure curtailed a lot of the Emissions Trading scheme nonsense but the airlines and AOC Operators are not affected by Part NCC.

I really wouldn't hold my breath awaiting a FAA legal interpretation.

I'm not sure of the SAFA check as there is nothing (that I know about) where they tick off the Operators base of operations, which is crucial for deciding if Part NCC applies, for non commercial operations (There is in the AOC section). There will be many thousands of Third country aircraft passing through the EU so how they are going to work out who is based in the EU or not could be quite difficult. Grounding a perfectly serviceable aircraft and certified crew on safety grounds is ridiculous but I suppose could and will be done.

Part NCC does not containing anything specific about licences. However, being old and very cynical, when the Part NCC declaration form is signed
Part of the statement in this states “All flights will be carried out in accordance with the procedures and instructions specified in the operations manual”. Part of the Ops manual is sure to contain some line as to complying with a countries regulations.
There are much cleverer people than me who may know better.

Like a lot of EASA regulation the whole issue is complex and badly written. The problems tend to occur with what is not written.

What a mess, so I'll continue planning my retirement :)

M.E.

Beaver,

Send me a PM and I will happily share what I have been told about detaining aircraft.

There's no surprise someone, somewhere is trying hard to put an end to the whole Third Country licencing issue.

It cyclical and has been for years. Who remembers when the DFT made a specific attempt to have N-Reg and N-Reg pilots banned outright in the UK? How quickly was that put to bed when the right folks started to kick up a stink... then a different tactic was tried, one of the previous years was only delayed in part because a group of professional aircrew took on a solicitor to poke holes and look for probability of a successful outcome if they went to court (and there was)... this time it seems that the whole Third Country licencing issue is turning into such a bloody mess they will make another attempt via Part-NCC perhaps to block it??

Its priceless when your own NAA claim to know absolutely nothing of any BSA, when you furnish proof to the contrary they stick their heads in the sand and say its nothing to do with them,,, they're not 'privy' to such discussions.

To anyone hoping we get the 'good' old CAA back after Brexit, it will never happen ... EASA is here to stay (sadly)...

I keep saying it and will continue to do so... Politics has NO place in aviation :ugh:

and another one ... :

http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/...ice2016041.pdf

Ok so please all explain, am I F00ked now? Or am I F00ked later?

This is so stupid now

The 25th August part NCC date on the information notice link above has no relevance to flight crew licenses, the UK CAA know this. Ignore it and continue flying until at least April 2017 when this mess will likely be delayed again. Euro parliament have confirmed that 25 August 2016 does not apply to remunerated pilots of private flight ops.

Care to paste a link to confirm that, Beaver?

An old colleague has it directly via email from the lead MEP from the EU TRAN committee who approved the unrestricted delay (both unrestricted in EU airspace and unrestricted remunerated or non remunerated pilots) to 8 Apr 17. In their own words they represent all EU countries and all committees

Oh well! I don't understand anymore.

I am going to put my pink furry handcuffs in my flight bag and wait patiently at the door of every landing for the sky cops to come get me.

If I am going down, I am going down in style !!!

Beaver, the problem is that it doesn't make any difference if the MEPs say "we didn't mean that". It's what is actually written that will be enforced. This is equally common in UK law, not confined to EU/EASA!
This is nothing to do with NCC per se, just the CAA have decided to use the same date.
The important thing is that this is an operator requirement, so this notice from the CAA affects UK operators. If, as someone has posted, France has decided not to take up the derogation at all then all French operators should already be complying. Of course, in France nobody pays any attention to such regs so everyone there is happy.