Gulfstream II
 

Well times are good, and we have recently been in the position to purchase a corporate jet.

Something that when I founded the company I never dreamed of being able to do.

Now I have been in talks with a broker with a Gulfstream II for sale, now I admit I know very little about these planes other than the research I have carried out myself.

And have found out that they might be banned from operating in the US and Europe, first how true is this?

I admit the interior looks very dated and we have got a quote to have it all ripped out and rebuilt to our specs, and although the exterior paint was only done 3 years ago we are looking to have it repainted in company colors etc.

So as for that side we have it covered.

As for usage. We operate in a number of countries and travel throughout the US, as well as England predominantly.

Therefore we have been looking at a jet that has the range to do Washington D.C to Birmingham, England.

As well as many cities in the US, typically Washington to Salt Lake City.

We would hire our own pilots, though we are not sure about a flight attendant, (is this required by law) As it will be staff flying therefore they can get their own food and drinks if required.

So basically does anyone have experience with this plane, and trans Atlantic travel, and is the ban true?

Any other advice would be great.

May I respectfully suggest that you hire a reputable aviation consultant before committing any hard earned cash to what is now a very dated jet with considerable costs associated to them. They will save you a lot of money in the long term.

Noise is only one factor to be considered. The costs associated with running 2 x RR Spey engines can make the eyes water, let alone the wallet. Old aircraft become maintenance hogs. Another factor is whether your proposed G11 is RVSM compliant. If not expect to spend more money making it compliant for European and US airspace or spend heaps more in fuel burn by being kept low all the time.

PL. Is right, the G2 is a great aircraft, but it's time is over I'm afraid - I would compair it with driving a 70's Lincoln Continental....

Broker / consultant
 

With respect, a G4SP, G450, G550 will do the job, and not require ear plug inplants, or a fuel tanker escort.

This was a regular run for me, and G4SP was OK....

PM if more details required, but a good broker / consultant is recomended.

I do know one G450 just on the market..Interior is 'different' but good value.

glf

Are they really that noisey inside?

Could anyone recommend any aviation consultant, and I will enquire today if it is RVSM compliant.

Bio: Have to agree with Lovett and Capt. Morgan, the GII is now a museum piece.

Yes you can pick them up quite literally for free these days but .. they are one of the most expensive business jets in the world to operate and .. as has been mentioned, have a number of operating restrictions.

If capital outlay is an issue then perhaps consider one of the NetJets programmes.

First off, what price range are you budgeting?

Please check your personal messages.

Thank you.

To play off GLF, used Challenger 604s are reasonably priced, modern, and will do your job.

GF

PLovett, I checked with them and it is already RVSM compliant, which I am guessing is a big plus.

Its not so much the intinal outlay just the ability because of the cost to customlise in inside and outside due to the saving.

I realsie the cost will be quite high, but as we are doing around 450 hours a year flying for at least 4 people at time, I am sure the costs will come in line with what we are spending on Business class alone.

I have also been told there are hush kits, is this true and do they make a difference?

I might shelf the idea for several years until we can afford the outlay for a more modern jet.

PM me if you are interested in a low time G550, we are not using a broker to sell.

PL

RVSM is a plus and yes, you can get hush kits, but, and it is a big BUT, operational and maintenance costs on a G11 are still going to be very high and I suggest, higher than what you currently spend on travel. In addition I believe Europe is to introduce still more severe noise restrictions that may well exclude even a hush-kitted aeroplane.

There are better options available, especially now with business confidence depressed with a lot of corporate aircraft on the market. Please seek out a reputable consultant and you will end up both with an aircraft more suitable to your needs that will not forever be requiring maintenance.

A number of people who have posted on this thread have a far more intimate knowledge of operating corporate jets than I so please read carefully what they have posted. The G11 was a great aircraft in its day but that day has passed. There are better options.

I started to look at Gulfstream-G550-GV and Bombardier-Global-5000 on a NetJets account although I still like the idea of owning one outright, at least I share the costs this way.

I will make a decision after speaking to some experts about costing’s etc, but thank you for all your input. It has helped so much.

Another stupid question and I never really thought about it until the other half brought it up,

We have a few dogs and always leave them at home when traveling although the hotels we stay in always accept pets.

Now I do not really mind this as its good to get a break, but she is dog mad and will not let them fly commerical which I agree with as I do not like the idea of them being caged up in the hold, but on a business jet can you have them in the cabin with you legally?

Think about a GV, can pick one up a descent one for less than 20 million. You get 550 range for a fraction of the price. Good time to be buying any second hand jets it's a buyers market.

If you buy a GII, I would budget on never getting the money back if you needed to sell it.

Go scheduled for the long haul stuff and buy a sensible, proven aircraft for jumping around Europe. See how ownership works before committing. Midsize jets which give you a good cabin and low operating costs with the versatility of being able to turn up pretty much anywhere (try doing that in a GII in Europe) rather than the nearest place that isn't noise sensitive. Excels and Hawkers can be had for (comparitavely) no money at the minute, will always be sell-able if looked after and it'll be a LOT easier to find a crew - are there even any G-II sims left?

The jumping will be more in the US, and US scheduled flights I must admit drive me insane with connections.

I guess I was spoilt in Europe with Heathrow, Manchester or Birmingham all being within 3 hours drive and could pretty much get me anywhere I needed to go direct.

As for reasons why we are looking at such an option, 12 of us fly on a regular basis. Often 4-8 at a time to the same location, and in some cases like last week Washington to Dallas with 5 hours’ notice so the price was through the roof, but it was for a large client.

As we have to take tools of our trade, our devices, computer equipment at times, it is a hassle checking this, as we work in anti/counter terrorism some of this equipment is very specialized and takes forever to explain to a TSA employee, as well as fines for going over the baggage allowance.

In fact 3 weeks ago, we were unable to load some important equipment on the plane as it was too heavy and I guess the flight was at the limit, so an employee had to no longer catch the flight (having paid for the ticket) and drive down as we needed it the following morning (a 16 hour drive.)

Not talking huge weights just more than allowed.
Flying to Europe would be four to five times a year minimum, myself personally did 10 trips last year and 6 of these 7 other people came with me, and business class tickets soon mount up.

As for resale value, in the scheme of things I know I am paying nothing for the jet in the first place so I understand the resale will be nothing.
As mentioned we are looking at netjets for a fractional ownership account, but the kudos to the company owning our own plane outright I think counts for a lot.

With the breaking of ground on our first factory being manufacturing in-house and no longer outsourcing in November, being located in the Midwest and our head office in near enough D.C the increase of flights over the next few years will be massive.

We saw the Gulfstream II as a stop gap for 4-5 years as the business grows and we get over the costs of building a 56,000ft factory then upgrading to a more modern jet, and writing the cost off tax wise over the five years.

So there is an urgent business need to find a suitable form of transport and soon, however we have reached out to a few consultants today as well as netjets, and the advice on here has stopped us from making the purchase because it seemed like a great deal at the time.

I look back upon my years in the GII and GIII fleet fondly. It was the most fun I ever had flying...

But do not even think about buying one!!! In my last GIII position, we spent on average $80,000 USD per month to keep it in the air. Yup, 80k a month!

You'll spend less buying a 7 million dollar GIV than a 1 million dollar GIII

FR

Challenger 604
 

just to keep the type battle running Galaxy Flyer especially..... I agree the 604 would do the job just as well, and having read the recent posts, totally agree.

I have over 2500 on both types, and loved the 601 and then the 604..... but passengers seem to prefer the G450/G550......

For the mission as detailed, either type would work.

A very interesting thread, with real input and help being offered.

G4phil, Where is your 550 located, (Coventry.?????).

FrankR, Running costs on a G2 G3, are sky high, but as you said great fun to fly, real aeroplanes.

Re the OP, comments about heavy and delicate kit, there is no substitute for an Executive jet.





Glf

I think that’s the key point despite costs is the transferring of kit which is important to work.
Going to go over the options and finally make a decision of the next few weeks, but thank you for all your help.
Must admit I not hear one person other than the broker we went to first who has said get the Gulfstream II

Have a look at the Embraer legacy. Good hold space and cheap compared to the other modern kit. Will need a fuel stop westbound back to the us though which can be done in less than 30 mins on the ground. Fantastic dispatch reliability as well.

Good luck.

D and F :8

So I taken the advice from here as well as a third party and we have found a jet that suits our needs and within budget, we have been advised to get a tech report, I guess the same as a house survey which I would not even think of having it completely looked over by an expert before parting with that kind of cash.

I have a fee of $2,000 a day and around $1,500 for travel for a tech to do the report, is this a fair price?

Pre Purchase Inspection
 

Hi

This is called a pre purchase inspection its your chance to have the AC gone over from Nose to Tail. This is done at a service centre which is a qualified facility approved by the Airframe manufacturer.

You are responsible to pay your qualified Engineer who will go over all tech logs as well as any other documentation, and do a full inspection ,the current owner is responsible to cover the cost of the inspection at the facility. Your Engineer should give you a report on any snag or discrepancy. After this you negotiate what the owner is prepared to have fixed at his cost and what final price you are prepared to pay for the AC.


In this market you should insist on all defects or major items be covered by the owner, you should leave the facility with a freshly inspected current up to date AC.

I hope this helps you should you have any questions feel free to contact me.

Regards,

Bob

I realize it was the same I guess as house survey pointing out everything that is wrong with the aircraft before the sale.
However I was wondering was $3500 including the travel a fair price as I just asked the broker if they recommended anyone and that was the price I was given, if it massively wide of the mark or even too good to be true I will look elsewhere.

Rethink this one
 

First of all, the engines are nearly impossible to get parts for. The fuel burns are outrageous and the avionics will not be compliant with EASA requirements without great expense. Here in the US, we commonly refer to GIIs as "geranium planters". GIIIs are nearly in the same boat. The least expensive Gulfstream that is reasonably operationally efficient is a later GIV SP. The best "bang for the buck" is a GV. They go for about $20 mil and have reasonably upgradeable avionics and decent fuel burns. Anything that you spend on a GII is a total write off in very short order.

Oh dear, US$2,000 a day - for an individual? And, you think it can be completed in one day? You're not taking it to an authorised service centre?

I see the fun is just beginning......:ugh:

The pre-buy on our last G-III took several weeks, a team of 5 in the hangar going over the aircraft, and two guys in a single wide going over the log books from day one.... Gulfstream used to charge $60,000 (ballpark) for this in 2000. It should be noted that a GIII was worth 8-10 Million U.S. in those days...

If it saved you from a several hundred thousands in oooppppssss, big repair bills, and losing your job...

FR

why not just lease an aircraft, or lease to purchase. dispatch, logs etc are all done for you.

Hi Bio,

Do you have any ideas where to find base and shelter for your aircraft in the Washington area, at reasonable cost and reasonable distance to your headquarters? It is the second most important question after the purchase decision.
Besides, I've witnessed the doom results of a "wow, it's cheap to buy this big airplane" attitude in my vicinity. The aircraft is sitting in a hangar since, abandoned and waiting for some miracle...Be careful. Consider the advices of experts in the previous posts.

Cheers and good luck,

b

P.s: Any feedback on the outcome of your story would be appreciated.

balaton

Before we even looked around for a a/c we looked at local airports/fields and we are lucky there is one near ourselves that has space as well as two runways, but due to Ronald Regan and Dulles being local to it, within 40 miles it is someone what under used.
When in fact it is the largest region airport in the state, and as its city owned the rental is not to bad.

Bio,

As people have mentioned, please take the aircraft you are looking at to a service center to have a proper pre buy done! It will save you sooooo much money in the long run. A proper pre-buy can not be done in a day or by one guy who says he can do it for you cheap.

If you like, you can PM me and I will give you the contact information for our Director of Maintenance who can lead you in the right direction. He has been supervising Pre-Buys and doing Log Book inspections for Banks and independent clients for years.

Good luck on your purchase.

J

You are going to lose your shirt with a G2.... we have operated G2's and G3's, right now they are sitting on the apron and we cant even give them away :) It is apparent that you know nothing about the costs of an aircraft or maintenance, so be very careful as you are running the risk of bankrupting your company.

To jump from airline flying to corporate ownership of a large jet is utterly crazy. I would strongly suggest getting an aircraft share in Netjets or similar to gain the experience of corporate flying, then in a year or two, reassess the costs and decide if you can afford a "reasonable" corporate jet.

Mutt

So let me get this straight.

On October 1st you told us that business was looking up, and that as it had been an ambition of yours to own a private jet you were now contemplating the purchase of a G2.

It was pointed out by many here that in 1967 the aircraft was a wonderful airplane, but now it can only be described as a noisy, gas guzzling, worthless museum piece that will cost you a fortune to keep flying. Nevertheless, you persist, and within a couple of days you have decided that there is merit in re-upholstering and re-painting a sows ear to turn it into a silk purse, despite the fact that most here have advise you will never get your money back.

Now I don't know very much about cybertronics, let alone the bio variant, but if I was going to buy one for circa $500,000 I would certainly heed the common advise given in any cybertronic forum. More than that, if I did find a forty year old cybertronic model that took my fancy, I would engage the services of a cybertronic appointed service centre to do the pre-purchase inspection - and not some muppet who will do the job in a day or two for pocket money!

If you go ahead with this plan you really are gonna make the seller and his broker very happy people. My advise mirrors that of everyone else here...stop thinking of a G2, and believe us....you can NOT afford it!!

Bio,

You need to take good advice before you move any further forward with your plan. That isn't as easy as it may sound - the aviation world, as with most, has too many people out for themselves and not the customer - be careful who you listen to and get advice from various sources.

For me, if you want to operate an aircraft that will allow, at times, up to 12 Pax in comfort, your statement;

'I realsie the cost will be quite high, but as we are doing around 450 hours a year flying for at least 4 people at time, I am sure the costs will come in line with what we are spending on Business class alone.'

is, IMO, way way off the mark. The jump from Business Class ticket to 12 Pax aircraft doing 450 hours a year is huge. As you say though, you do get superb availability, speed and point to point routing - however, it will cost you far more than I think you realise.

If you still have any doubts? - this is a pilot forum and pretty much everyone is telling you to think again.

Good luck.

Most interesting thread on pprune :E

bio, perhaps you could tell us what your budget is and how much you intend to spend on the plane per month or per year? This would immediately identify the aircraft which are available to you, and would eliminate comments posted by some such as "you will not afford it bla bla bla". I'm sure there are lots of experts here who could provide you with good advice on what to purchase, provided they know how much money you have to spend.

Good luck to you Sir :ok:

The last few posts have finally brought some desperately needed home truths to the intrepid biocybertronics!

At first I thought the original post may have been the action of a teenage aviation enthusiast but now I don't know what to think!

I have a suspicion that this enquiry is a flight of fancy more than a genuine situation involving someone who is going to buy an aircraft anytime soon.

Keep it real.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-0...0Fortescue.png
GF

Bio - You need to talk to someone that has researched, bought, put on line, managed, and flown corporate jets as a Chief Pilot.

Anyone saying a G5 or Challenger is a viable alternative doesn't have a clue as to the real world capitol cost difference.

What you need to do is sit down with someone that is objective, not trying to sell you a plane, take a hard look at your travel history, what realistically you need to accomplish...then be super conservative as a move into your first big jet.

Three points:

First, I'm shocked! Shocked to learn that some posts here on PPruneare not genuine!! How could this possibly happen? OK, IMHO, maybe 35% of the posts here are flat out bogus, rants, or are severely skewed by a toxic mixture of anger and/or an inflated ego. However, many of the kind replies provide worthy learning points.

Second, regarding this post, the cost of capital is treated differently depending on the current situation of the person or entity. Sometimes, you may want to sink "all cash" into an aircraft, other times, leverage with a 90% loan (If you can get a loan), and other times, go the nothing down route and lease!

Regardless, you should be looking at the 5 year cost of ownership, not the purchase price alone. In this case, I bet a $9 million dollar GIV is way cheaper than a $1.5 million dollar GII over 5 years.

Finally, I've seen many a time where a client ended up with a crazy choice for an aircraft. One owner I know fly's 50 hours a year on 500 NM legs, and owns a G550, another owner fly's from LA to London every month buys an aircraft requiring two fuel stops each way.

Ours is not to reason why,

FR

reply to silly people
 

The initial cost of purchase is only the start.

The cost of ownership over, say 5 years, for a G5 or CL, in relation to the cost of ownership on a G2 is a balance between reale value, as well as hourly operating costs.

The OP has a quantity of delicate and sensitive equipment to transport, as well as SLF.

I gather he requires rapid dispatch, and secure hangerage......

450 hours a year is good utilisation for any corporate jet, GLf of Cl.


Is it 35 % or 95% of us here that are legit or what...Sometimes PP actually helps other...

glf