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Logbook entries
Aviators,
recently I had a discussion about what I can and what I can´t log in regards to flight time etc. Imagine the following situation, I fly under FAR (FAA, US) on a learjet 60 as an SIC in a part 91 operation. I tried to look for answers myself in FAR part 61 (certification), unfortunately without the desired outcome. Some of the questions might seem obvious but I would like to know where I can find that information in the FAR. 1: If the PIC performs the landing, can I still log the landing? 2: If the flight time is 3 hours and 2 of those hours were IMC, can I log these hours (actual instrument) on a flight when I am operating the aircraft as an SIC? Or can only the PIC log those hours? 3: Can I log instrument approaches when I am operating the aircraft as an SIC? What if the PIC flies the approach, and I assist him in that approach? (basically you do an instrument approach together, it's just that one pilot is actually flying and the other pilot (sic) is providing information/call outs on the approach) Any information to clarify this is very welcome and appreciated! Thank you in advance, DutchDutch :ok: |
If its a multi crew aircraft (MPA), or multi pilot operation, then you can log IMC time, night, approach etc also as PNF.
Personally I only log landings where I am PF and I think this is the way we are supposed to do it both in FAA and EASA land. CP |
Under FAR 61.51 (g) Logging instrument time. (1) A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.
The operative word here is "operates" You can only claim the landing if you actually do it. You can only log instrument if you actually flew it. If its my SIC's leg he logs both as SIC, I just log the time as PIC, if it is my leg, I log both and he will log the time as SIC. This is also on a part 91 operation in a two crew jet. Only one person can actually be a handling pilot at any one time, collaboration does not count. |
The operative word here is "operates" You can only log instrument if you actually flew it. |
Certainly not the case with the FAA, only one person can actually be flying at any one time, instrument time is that time when the conditions are less than VMC, many folks log instrument time as all the time on an IFR flight, also not correct unless a view limiting device is used. This can be researched easily on many websites, I am also a CFI, CFII, MEI and AGI.
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Like most questions, the FAA lawyers have posted their answer. This is from a letter in 1999.
"You first ask whether it would be proper under FAR 61.51(g) for a properly qualified SIC to log instrument flight time flown during instrument conditions while serving as the SIC in Part 121 operations on an aircraft that requires two crewmembers. The answer is yes. As a qualified SIC, and as a required crewmember, you are "operating" the aircraft within the meaning of FAR 61.51(g). Therefore, as the SIC operating the aircraft "solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions," you would log that time as SIC flown in instrument conditions. Naturally, the PIC logs the time as PIC flown in instrument conditions. You then ask if, for the purposes of maintaining instrument currency, an instrument approach on the above flight flown by the PIC can be logged as an instrument approach by the SIC. *The answer is no. As the SIC you have not "performed" the approach as contemplated by FAR 61.57(c) because you were not the sole manipulator of the controls during the approach." |
As posted by MarkerInbound my previous comment was not accurate:
2: If the flight time is 3 hours and 2 of those hours were IMC, can I log these hours (actual instrument) on a flight when I am operating the aircraft as an SIC? Or can only the PIC log those hours? The answer is obviously yes, I should have read the question more carefully. |
Answers
Thanks for this information, I appreciate it! I think we all agree that the rules are sometimes written in such a way that it's very easy to misunderstand. Below I wrote down my understanding of the information provided.
1: If the PIC performs the landing, can I still log the landing? ANSWER: When the PIC 'operates' the airplane during his leg/landing you can't log this landing as an SIC since you didn't 'operate' the airplane. However this does make sense to me, as far as I can tell there is not a written rule that states the above! (correct me if I am wrong) 2: If the flight time is 3 hours and 2 of those hours were IMC, can I log these hours (actual instrument) on a flight when I am operating the aircraft as an SIC? Or can only the PIC log those hours? Answer: Not only the PIC can log those instrument hours, the SIC can log these hours also even if he wasn't the PF but since a minimum of 2 crew is necessary in this case (multi crew jet) that rule is no longer 'effective'. 3: Can I log instrument approaches when I am operating the aircraft as an SIC? What if the PIC flies the approach, and I assist him in that approach? (basically you do an instrument approach together, it's just that one pilot is actually flying and the other pilot (sic) is providing information/call outs on the approach) Answer: No you can't, according to FAR 61.51G you must 'operate' the airplane to log those approaches. |
1. PF logs landing.
2. Correct, both pilots log IMC, night etc. 3. Correct, but who logs approaches anyway?! Unless you need it for a training syllabus etc..... |
The FAA has their rules and then the Office of the Chief Counsel of the FAA will answer questions about them and give their interpretation. Since they are the folks that will write the violation, their thoughts matter.
You can put anything you you want in your logbook. However, if you use improperly logged events to show currency it will cause problems. 1. Your understanding is correct as explained by the the FAA lawyers. You need to separate "operate" and "manipulate." to count for currency, you have to be the "sole manipulator" of the the controls. Actually have your hands on the yoke. 2. Yes both can log it. I don't know what you mean by "that rule is no longer effective." Remember, operate v. manipulate. 3. Again, the the better answer is you must manipulate the controls through the landing. |
Markerinbound, let me try to explain what I mean with 'no longer effective'.
quote (from one of your previous posts) As a qualified SIC, and as a required crewmember, you are "operating" the aircraft within the meaning of FAR 61.51(g). Therefore, as the SIC operating the aircraft "solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions," Basically from what I understand is that you are saying because in this particular situation (part 91, multi crew, jet) it requires 2 pilot operation they can both log instrument time, however when it comes to landing the airplane (both pilots are still necessary since the sic is a required crew member) but one person can't log the landing. To summarize, because you are a required crew member (as a SIC) you can log instrument time as well as the PIC but this does NOT apply when it comes to landing the airplane even though you are still a required crew member. In my opinion it's confusing that you can log instrument time even though you are not flying or operating the airplane BUT you can't log the landings even though it's basically the same principle. (in my opinion) I hope I made clear what I am trying to say, but again thanks for the imput I have my answers and that's what it's all about! :ok: |
Even as PIC I've only ever logged instrument time when PF, reading the above posts I've perhaps sold myself short of a few hours over the years!
I'm one of those who logs all IFR time as instrument time (when PF), but according to NuName's post I'm possibly wrong in doing so. |
Being as I am normaly between FL300-FL400 even on crappy days I do not usually find myself in IMC for more than 20-40 minutes total for both ends.
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DutchBoy I agree it's confusing. Our Feds consider IFR as a condition like night time. And like RAFAT I've only logged the instrument time that I was the "handling" pilot. It is sort of silly when the autopilot does 96 percent of the flying.
Capt. Prop, in FAA land, you have have logged 6 approaches in the last 6 months to be current. Or have had a check ride blah, blah, blah. |
RAFAT,
I'm one of those who logs all IFR time as instrument time (when PF), but according to NuName's post I'm possibly wrong in doing so. |
Pontius
Absolutely correct and I find it stunning that anyone with more that one brain cell could think otherwise.
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DutchDutch: Take a step back and consider this........... What is the point of keeping a logbook?
It`s main purpose is to provide a legal record of flight experience(s). Why on earth would you ever think that it was relevant for two pilots on the same crew to both be claiming to have performed a landing? This has nothing to do with being a "required crewmember". The same logic is obvious about the logging of Instrument Time as opposed to Time under IFR. When I used to to Base Training on the aircraft, in a year I may have "supervised" up to 400 landings without ever having actually performed one myself! Do you think that I should have logged these! Of course not! |
Pontius & NuName,
Back in the day when I was a young F/O and keen to ensure that my logbook was filled out completely correctly, I put the 'Instrument flight time' question to my Base Captain, he referred me to my logbook instructions page, and CAA regulations, which stated that instrument flight time is "Time during which a pilot is controlling an aircraft in flight solely by reference to instruments." Now, where I disagree with you both, although I stand to be corrected by a valid point of reference, is that IFR is relevant to this. NuName, when you're tootling along at FL300-FL400, IMC or VMC has no relevance as you're almost certainly in IFR airspace and navigating by reference to the instrumentation in front of you. That is clearly instrument time as defined by the above guidelines. If en-route you're cleared to a certain waypoint, you don't turn towards the waypoint using a visual reference, but again using the instrumentation in front of you. IMC alone does not determine instrument time. As I personally operate mostly in IFR airspace, as soon as the wheels come up I'm navigating on instruments, even if the autopilot is in and coupled I'm still monitoring it. The same is the case at the other end (unless cleared for a visual approach) with the approach being on instruments too, including radar vectors. |
RAFAT
For the FAA, instrument flight time is only that time when the conditions are less than VMC, or simulated instrument flight time when a view limiting device is used. At night it is flying at night, not instrument flight, at FL300+ the same apply's, I am not navigating with a half mil chart for sure but neither am I controllling the aircraft by SOLE reference to instruments.
It does not require a great deal of thought to fully understand why INSTRUMENT FLIGHT only should be logged and NOT FLIGHT UNDER INSTRUMENT FLIGHT RULES. A new PPL with no IR rating or IMC may file and fly IFR as long as they remain within the operating rules of their licence. Please explain to me the value of logging time spent under IFR, I am sometimes having a meal, going to the toilet, filling in the log or reading the newspaper, hell, sometimes I'm having a kip, should we make a note of whether we were awake or not. |
I agree with NuName; it is a nonsense to suggest that all IFR time is spent on instruments. Watching the autopilot follow the magenta line is not flying by SOLE reference to instruments. Looking out the window on a gin-clear day while the aircraft climbs in VNAV is not flying by SOLE reference to instruments. I'm quite sure the intent of recording instrument flight time is to ensure currency or experience to qualify for or maintain the relevant instrument flying rating. Flying in VMC, with the autopilot engaged and reading a book does not add to that experience and, in my mind, does not fulfil the requirements.
JAR-FCL 1.080(b)(4)(5) “Recording of flight time”, states: A pilot may log as instrument flight time only that time during which he operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments, under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions. Please note the operative word, "conditions", not rules. VMC in IFR is NOT instrument flight conditions. |
I asked same question about IFR and flight time in our respective JAA CAA.
Answer was, that if you fly according to IFR flight plan, then you must log IFR = flight time, and total time = block time. Landings as PF, PIC if you are nominated commander (and independent of PF/PM duties), as PICUS. PICUS only until fulfilling 250hrs PIC requrement for unfreezing ATPL. |
If you refer to the post by Pontius you will note that he has taken the trouble to quote:
"JAR-FCL 1.080(b)(4)(5) “Recording of flight time”, states: A pilot may log as instrument flight time only that time during which he operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments, under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions." Flight by the use of instruments in IMC or simulated IMC is totaly different than flying by IFR, by all means record all your time under IFR but do not think that this contributes to instrument flight time. IFR is obeying rules, flight by the use of instruments in IMC, or simulated IMC, is a skill that needs to be practiced and maintained, anybody that confuses the two obviously does not quite understand that. |
It's obvious from the language that you both choose to use and the way that you put your points across, that you're both absolutely fixed in your opinion and no one, even someone "with more than one brain cell" is ever going to convince you otherwise. That's just fine by me, you make some valid points with which I agree, and I disagree with you on others, but hey, I'm not going to lose any sleep over the issue.
I said in an earlier post that "I'm one of those who logs all IFR time as instrument time (when PF), but according to NuName's post I'm possibly wrong in doing so." Well you've actually convinced me to maintain what I've done before. In reply to the JAR-FCL reference that was mentioned, if you have a glimpse at General Requirements in Section 2 Subpart A - Amdt 4, on pages 28-35 there is an example JAA log book. With the exception of the 'Remarks' column where instrument flight time can be recorded "as part of training for a licence or rating", where in that logbook does one record instrument flight time? In the explanatory notes it states that column 9 (Operational Condition Time) is used to "enter flight time undertaken at night or under instrument flight rules if applicable." In answer to NuName's point about eating, going to the loo or making a note of whether he is awake or not, the same can point can be made in regard to IMC, do I make a note every time I enter and leave a cloud, then total the time up at the end of the flight to record as instrument flight time? If I "watch the autopilot follow the magenta line" and we enter cloud for a minute or so, do I record a minute of instrument flight time? It would be interesting to hear what you've both actually logged as instrument flight time during recent flights. |
RAFAT
My language was not intended to be offensive and I sincerely hope it wasn't. Let me explain myself a little more. The whole point of logging instrument flight time is to indicate ones experience in manipulating an aircraft using instruments alone with no visual references. Just like logging total time and time on type. If a person was to log all IFR time as instrument FLIGHT time, especially in a two crew operation, it gives no indication whatsoever of that persons expected capabilities. In fact, they have diluted it to an extent that it is no longer of any real value. Nobody who really needs to know is going to accept that, for example, a 5,000 hour pilot who has 4,500 hours of instrument time. In answer to your question I have 8,013 TT, 6,455 PIC, 5,814 Jet, 736 total instrument time and 599 actual instrument time. Nobody needs or wants to know how many hours I have spent in upper airspace drinking coffe, chatting to the boss, trying to undestand ATC or all the other things that one does on a long flight. I once had an equipment failure on the approach to Biggin Hill at the end of a long night flight, it took me by surprise, I was very stressed but completed the go around manouver successfully only due to the previous instrument FLYING experience I had gained in the past, and I have to admit, it wasn't pretty but it was safe. I can understand that some pilots may like to see big numbers under instrument flight time, but, REALLY! You go ahead and log your time as you did before, nothing wrong with that, but, I do hope you are keeping a record of the time you have actually flown an aircraft using instruments alone, in the real sense. |
NuName - I respect and applaud the value that you attach to your instrument experience, and like you I don't agree with the fact, as pointed out in an earlier post, that both pilots can log the instrument time gained on a single flight.
Logging instrument flight in the way that I do only amounts to one quarter of my total time, a little more than using your method yes, but certainly not big numbers. That's all from me on this subject, I think the OP has his answer by now. |
Under JAR it is pretty simple. You may log IMC time at your leasure, but nobody is really interested as that is not a requirement under JAR. It has to be logged in the remarks column (JAR FCL 1.080 (b) (4) (v)).
You have to log operational conditions, one of them is flying under IFR rules (JAR FCL 1.080 (b) (5)). That is a requirement and has to be done. For those of us flying IFR only that means that IFR time is the same as total time. For others that fly mixed operations that may differ. PICUS may be logged if the method of supervision is acceptable to the authority (JAR FCL 1.080 (c) (5)), it has to be countersigned by the pilot in command (JAR FCL 1.080 (c) (1) (v)). This is a statement that is open to debate. The uk has guidelines in its LASORS that allow every line captain to supervise a PICUS flight, in many other european countries that is not possible and PICUS can only be flown in an especially approved program, usually during the upgrading process. |
Denti
Hello, I will try to make this brief as its becoming a bit boring. I don't know if you fly or not but to say "You may log IMC time at your leasure, but nobody is really interested" could not be further from the truth. I looked up (JAR FCL 1.080 (b) (5) (v)) out of interest, and, apart from saying that you may not log taxi time as instrument time (now there's a surprise) it only say's that they are waiting for EASA to clarify what constitutes instrument flight time. Please answer this: If a PPL with no ratings were to file and fly on a IFR flight plan in VMC, should he log that flight as instrument flight in his log and wish this time to be considered when trying to achieve an instrument rating?
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Actually, thanks for pointing that out. There is no point (v) in JAR FCL 1.080 (b) (5). It is of course point (b) (4) (v) which describes what may be logged into the remarks column. Operative word being "may". There is no requirement and everything logged in there is of no concern to licensing according to JAR FCL (which changes come april).
JAR FCL 1.080 (b) (5) just says: (5) Operational conditions: (i) Night (ii) IFR A PPL that files an IFR flightplan without having a rating is outside the scope of legislation and regulation and may do whatever he pleases, it is illegal to begin with. If he has an instrument rating of course he has to log his flighttime according to JAR FCL as IFR time, again, that is not time in IMC, it is IFR time and JAR FCL does not deal with anything else. Instrument time (which again is not IMC time) should be logged during initial training for an IR rating though, however that can be done in the documentation of the approved FTO in which one works towards obtaining that rating. However instrument time is of no concern to renewal of said rating. That is one of the big differences between JAR FCL and the american system where actual IMC time should be logged. That is simply not the case in europe. |
It is perfectly legal for a PPL to file and fly under IFR, they would have to remain within the privileges of their licence so that would mean maintaining VFR and outside controlled airspace, exactly the reason I asked the question, would you consider this to be flight controlled solely by the use of instruments and logged as such?
A PPL would only need a rating to enter IMC or controlled airspace, no rating required to fly according to instrument flight rules. Also, being as the direct quote is: Instrument flight time: aircraft in flight solely by reference to instruments.Time during which a pilot is controlling an How can fight in IMC be not logged as this is absolutely what the above describes. And the word controlling is used as opposed to operating. |
In mainland europe it is not legal to file IFR without an IFR rating. That may differ in the UK or other nations but that is outside the scope of JAR FCL and everything else under european regulation, it is purely a national thing and may change considerably come april. One of the reasons is that IFR outside CAS (i.e. class G which exists only below 2500ft AGL in some places, below 1000ft AGL in most) is not allowed. The only exception is class F which may only contain one IFR flight at a time and is only activated for that sole purpose to provide higher VFR minima (5km vis, 1500m lateral spacing to clouds and 1000ft vertical spacing to clouds).
Your description of instrument flight time is correct and straight out of the definitions of JAR-FCL, however it is something that may only be "logged" in the remarks column and is of no regulatory interest. Operation of the aircraft according a certain set of rules however is of very much regulatory interest, hence the requirement to log IFR time. |
Hi again Denti, you correctly guessed that I was refering to UK regs, and like you I do not know much about such things in other lands as I do not find myself in that situation, ever.
All I can say now is, if you are correct in what you are saying, and I have no other information at hand to prove you wrong, EASA will introduce a system that will remove any hope of assessing a pilots likely performance when FLYING an aircraft in inclement weather. For me, I still understand, and read, Instrument flight time: aircraft in flight solely by reference to instruments:Time during which a pilot is controlling an to mean as I said before, and that can be the only intention of the statement, as for me, to log IFR flight when I am eating my lunch, taking a wee wee, chatting to the boss, reading the newspaper or playing solitair on my iPad, is time that should play no part in my record of experience other than total time. I hold UK & FAA licences and on the several occasions when I have had to state my various flight times there has never been any questions about it. |
Aye, from Appendix B to Section A LASOR it seems under national rules in the UK you have to log instrument time. However if you are using the privileges of a JAR license you also have to log IFR time. The latter is sadly under a heading "Recommended information", but alas it is explained that it should be logged for JAR licenses. Checking JAR-FCL 1.080 then explains that you have to log IFR time as operational condition and may log instrument time if you really want to. The thing that muddles some things up is that some seem to be of the opinion that instrument time is only possible in IMC, however that is not the case, it is time whenever you fly solely in reference to the instruments, which in my opinion is pretty much always when airborne in a jet, even in full VMC my flightpath is maintained solely in reference to instruments.
Flying under an uk issued license therefore requires you to log both, for the purpose of JAR-FCL and most probably the coming EASA rules only IFR-time is required. By the way, i have known a CAA that argued one can only log instrument time when flying manually as the pilot needs to manipulate the controls himself to be in full control of the aircraft with the sole reference to instruments. Quite sad really, but they do have a point. |
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