PPRuNe Forums - Falcon 7X Suspension of Flight Ops

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"No , The manual trim switches can only be used when the HSTA (Horizontal Stabilizer Trim Actuator) is controlled in back-up mode." :=

Not quite right. The manual trim switches work in Direct Laws as well. In fact, if the crew faced with the pitch trim runaway had forced the aircraft into Direct laws (there IS a way!) then they could have overcome the runaway. However, that would probably be a dangerous "undocumented procedure".

As far as the rather silly remarks about wanting cables and pulleys as backup, there have been plenty of control jams due to that "old' technology, and anyone who wants to go back to that is a Dinosaur!

@TATprobe

OK! thanks for the correction.

I can only hope that crews in a situation as the Malaysia flight will not go for the dangerous "undocumented procedure" :p

As for getting control of the Trim , I do know that Dassault is working on a Service Bulletin that will introduce a new switch on the emergency switch panel. This switch should allow direct control using the manual trim switches.

Frank, what an incredible post:mad:

Quote:

I'm not a falcon 7x guy, but all of the aircraft I've flown have been equipped to stop runaway pitch trim. I don't believe you can manually stop a 7X trim runaway as this crew experienced, you need to wait for the computer "laws" to kick in and recognize the problem.

This is a huge problem in my book. Do you falcon lovers really like flying something you can't control? Perhaps you can explain to the group what the pilots should have done to control and prevent the 11,000Ft altitude excursion. Food for thought, IF the computer had commanded down rather than up, their might be a smoking hole outside of Simpang.

... And please use FACTS to explain what should have been done rather than "boo-hoo you guys hate us, it was only once, we love our falcon" we have been forced to read to justify and defend this incident.

I would have done my own research, but Dassault is so insecure they forced Smart Cockpit to remove systems materials from their site as well.

Now to be fair, I still want the ASC to install cables on ALL the flight controls of my 650 that's on order!

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I'm not a falcon 7x guy,

Yes, that´s what I thought.....

Quote:

... And please use FACTS to explain what should have been done rather than "boo-hoo you guys hate us, it was only once, we love our falcon" we have been forced to read to justify and defend this incident.

FACTS.....Nobody!! justified and/or defended this incident. Au contraire, plenty of very smart people are working on that problem and they will find a solution!

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but Dassault is so insecure

Yes, you, as an expert, would certainly know that.....

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Now to be fair, I still want the ASC to install cables on ALL the flight controls of my 650 that's on order!

Jessus, the 650CV ( Cable Version )...did you call GS already??

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As far as the rather silly remarks about wanting cables and pulleys as backup, there have been plenty of control jams due to that "old' technology, and anyone who wants to go back to that is a Dinosaur!

:D

This was posted by you on the G650 thread.....

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First, Gulfstream clamps down the "cone of silence" whenever one of theirs has a problem.

Dassault apparently does not:ok:

LG

TAT probe, if you could explain how to get a 7x out of normal laws....

I for one have no idea, I know it is possible to "move up" (for lack of a better word), but to get out of normal laws?

Hey "Grey Lady"
It's always easy to attack the messenger when you don't have any solid answers, or knowledge. If you review the entire thread, you will see that rather than offering solutions to a potentially catastrophic failure, you and certain other posts simply spend line after line attacking me for asking that we stick to the facts, in this case that the aircraft can't be controlled by any means.

My requests were not "childish" or from a "Dinosaur". Simply an attempt to uncover the truth.

Sorry you feel the need to spend so many column inches attacking someone who wants to stick to the subject.

FR

For the benefit of those, like me, who know nothing about FBW aircraft, what memory or QRH actions are prescribed for the "trim runaway" scenario in a 7X?

On the 7X there are hardly any memory items, but essential pilot action is defined as an "Operating Technique". In the case of a pitch trim runaway, the Operating Technique is to counteract the out of trim situation by using the sidestick.

Interestingly, PITCH TRIM RUNAWAY is only referred to in the Manuals as being a problem when manual trim is being used (i.e. other than Normal Laws, where it is not available), so the scenario on the incident aircraft was not really foreseen, hence the engineering fix.

To Dassault's credit, they have been issuing daily updates on the problem via their customer portal, so anyone with a "need to know" is kept in the loop.

Of course, the merely curious are not privy to this information!
:ok:

One 7x took off this afternoon from LFPB, by 13:00

Looks that they've found a fix..?

Although most of the details are known, the official Service Bulletin for the "fix" is not out yet. Probably a ferry flight to a service station? I recon Jet Aviation, Basel will be overloaded for the coming weeks :oh:

Alfred, you're funny...

This was Airfix's, to Helsinki.
Maybe Dassault need Airfix more then ever... ;)

Yesterday morning another one, Portuguese, flew from Le Bourget to Istres Le Tubé (LFMI).

How much does a 7X cost ?

Sitting still @ factory request , do the owners get remedial lift, and if so on what large cabin aircraft ?
Dassault picking up the bill ? Anybody knows ?

Wooow

Yes, it was a ferry flight with ferry permit from Dassault. We had no problems and flight was done with special restrictions applied. 7X is still not released for passenger service. Dassault is promising a SB that will fix the problem by June 15... it will require about four days of ground time and some new wiring done.... so we will see, what Dassaults "passioned engineering" comes up with.... meanwhile for all 7X pilots: have a nice time off duty!

or if you prefer,

UK CAA's EAD

Quote:

Originally Posted by TATprobe

...if the crew faced with the pitch trim runaway had forced the aircraft into Direct laws (there IS a way!) then they could have overcome the runaway.

How exactly does one do that?

is the 7x still suspended ?

There was an AINonline item a day or two ago that said all but three a/c had returned to flight, but that some were still subject to significant flight restrictions (e.g. Mmo=0.85 not 0.90) and that there were further systems changes due in the near future. I believe the ADs are all still in effect to some extent.