Russian pilots to speak English
 

"MOSCOW, Nov. 11 (UPI) -- Russia says its pilots and air traffic controllers at the country's international airports will conduct all communications in English beginning next May.

The requirement could eventually be extended to domestic flights within Russia, The Moscow Times reported Thursday."

Russian pilots to speak English - UPI.com

Let's see if the French and Hispanics will follow this example.
Definitely an increase in air safety!

Knowing how pragmatic the Russians are, come 1st May, 2010 ALL airports WILL be speaking English. The language actually spoken might sound a bit Russian, but you will not be listening correctly. Box ticked, job done, next?

PM

2 issues are being confused here.

1. Whether all pilots and ATC should possess a certain level of proficiency en ingles as per ICAO. This is supposed to happen by 2011.

2. Whether all radio traffic should be in ingles. This is still TBD

I think this is a good idea and it is about time. In Canada we get a lot of pilots and controllers speaking french and it can lead to problems.

déjà vu?
 

Please tell me to what problems this can lead or how safety is compromised in a dual language ATC airspace. We already had this discussion on the hamster wheel-like ":yuk: French ATC" thread. The safety argument of monoglots upon investigating had very little basis and it turned very ugly on both sides with the usual below the belt and nationalistic arguments.

Thanks mods, for deleting my previous post. :hmm:

If now even the Russians can do it (or at least will try), why can't the French?

I've always thought the Japanese were exceptionally good about this.

You NEVER hear any Japanese on the frequency.

Their discipline has my admiration.
:ok:

I would say loss of situational awareness when some pilots understand the ATC and some don't.

Let's say a guy is reporting windshear in a different language and you are 3 NM beind him or maybe he's turning without ATC's approval and the ATC is trying to call him in french and you are not paying extra attention because you don't understand what is going on.

Or maybe you are on final at around 4 nm and the guy is authorizing another traffic to cross the active runway (happened to me in Spain) and i had to go around since at minimums i just saw the guy in the middle of the runway at the first intersection moving extra slowly.

The list is long and I think speaking the same language IS an increase in air safety.

It IS a déjà vu!
 

Right. So what about multiple tower or ground frequencies? Military colleagues on UHF? I am still waiting for the proof that single-language ATC is safer. What about just looking out and use common sense? Dual-language ATC airspaces have been around for a long time, where is the dreaded danger? This is usually the pet argument of monoglots.

Big deal. Sounds to me you have never been to ORD. Talk to me about situational awareness when you have flown and taxied a few years out of there. :rolleyes:

Presumably will also lead to the demise of the fleets of Follow Me vehicles leading Western carriers at Russian airports.

Until a couple of years ago, at St Petersburg this comprised an old-style Lada with a yellow flashing light stuck askew on the roof, leading Boeing's and Airbus's finest around the airfield.

"....If now even the Russians can do it (or at least will try), why can't the French?"

Quite agree.

Good on the Russians I say, who appear not to be putting national pride before safety concerns any longer. At least they seem to be making an effort. Unlike some others I could mention.

Talk about following a "follow me" at Russian airports, someone smarter than I warned me never taxi though a puddle as you dont know how deep they maybe!! :}

I'm OK with English calendars, it's the Roman religious calendars that I appear to have a problem with. Good spot: one beer owed. Maybe I should have said 2011 (or even left the year out)?

PM

Squawk 7777

You may be correct in your questionable assertion that the use of multiple languages is not in itself unsafe, but one indisputable fact is that does not, in any way, increase situational awareness and can therefore only compromise, and never improve, safety.

Hopefully their English will be better than this :eek::

YouTube - Air Traffic Control: Swiss Airbus Bird Strike

jetset320,
I've heard worse.....

But it does illustrate that, once something goes wrong, and way outside standard procedures and "standard English", we will always have problems.

Not sure that our Swissair friend wouldn't have had the same problems in the UK far North or the US far South....

At least both sides (Swiss and Russian) tried to slow down and articulate.

CJ

I disagree. If there is anything that might affect your aircraft, ATC is required to inform you. Situational awareness is multifaceted, yet too many people get distracted by hearing a foreign language.

That sounds like something my dad told me when he was teaching me how to drive! :E

Yikes! Talk about frustration indeed. It's stressful just listening to it. You sort of want to say "HE NEEDS A TRACTOR FOR GOD'S SAKE! :ugh: THEY CANNOT MOVE BECAUSE THEY SHUT DOWN BOTH ENGINES :{ "

Thank goodness they didn't have an engine out; with the increased workload and the chap in the tower not understanding much of the out-of-standard phraseology that would have been...epic. Sorry, can't think of any other word :eek:

I seem to recall an incident in the last five years when CDG ATC cleared a BA aircraft that had landed on 27R to cross 27L in English, into the path of an Air France that had been cleared for take off on 27L in French. Fortunately the technology in the tower alerted the controllers to the conflict and the AF340 was instructed to abort it's take off. I would suggest that's an indisputable example of dual language compromising safety.

However, you are now intrinsically reliant on someone else for your safety, since the use of dual languages has removed the ability to understand what instructions were issued to another aircraft, whether they conflict with yours or not. That CANNOT be an improvement in safety - or do you disagree?

What is so frustrating is the unwillingness of advocates of dual-language environments to consider this may be a negative safety factor. In every discussion there is some wishy-washy babble about how this is supposedly not really a problem. How much common sense do you need to understand it patently IS.

- GY :confused:

And the shorts tragedy at CDG where a crew member lost his head (English speaking)

A contributing factor was an French speaking aircraft was cleared for t/o in french, while there was a runway entry/incursion on an intersection, on the same runway. This aircraft was not aware the conflicting aircraft was cleared for t/o..

The Dan Air B727 at Tenerife. Spanish speaking was a contributing factor in that tragedy, IMHO.

Dual language communication is not a safety issue as ATC never ever get anything wrong and Pilots never need to know what any other aircraft is doing ....ever:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

I have submitted 3 MORs at french airfields due to loss of situational awareness caused by ATC issuing critical information in French only. (eg, closure of our 2 diversion airfields, Orly and Beauvais, due to thunderstorm activity!!).

If French was the language of international aviation, that is the language I would use as I believe that flight safety overrides any jingoistic tendencies.

well looks like there is going to be an even bigger shortage of pilots in russia when that comes in. The level of english in most companies is really questionable. I really dont know how AFL pilots manage to read those airbus manuals.

cowboys straight from a eastwood movie
 

i dont doubt the safety aspect of 1 language atc. its the best. but i also agree on multi language atc and here is why.

ive noticed that on my little island, there are a lot of venezuelan GA traffic, these guys are cowboys straight from a eastwood movie.
if you dare to speak english to some of them, they will answer you in english, but in reality, they did not understand a bit of it, and won't comply to what they read back.
dont ask for examples, just use your imagination.
now, the atc notices this, and will instruct immediately in spanish, and then they do comply.
so in "many" cases, i've noticed that using more then 1 language improves safety.

i just wished that all pilots would care enough for this aspect and improve their language skills. meaning learn english.
and then for the english speaking ones, no harm in learning and understanding basics of other languages spoken in the country ure working in. not all obviously. :ok:
i speak 6 languages :)

Another contributing factor that you omitted is that the Shorts crew did not maintain sterile cockpit. Read the accident report before pointing fingers. :=

Aren't you kidding? You lose situational awareness because of a foreign language? What kind of a pilot are you? I don't want to ever be in your plane. Besides, how do you know that critical information was transmitted, if you do not understand French? :ugh:

I couldn't agree more! Additionally, a person only capable of speaking one language is a monoglot. :hmm:

You are correct in your observation that it is usually the English speakers that almost act like drama queens by citing safety issues when flying in dual language airspace. This topic is continuously reappearing on pprune with the usual narrow-mind point of view. I have flown in dual-language environments where I did not understand the non-English language and I didn't feel my safety compromised in any way. Ask any other non-English native pilot who has done the same and none will act like those here on pprune. It's usually a favorite French bashing argument. :yuk:

I can't understand how anyone can think that not being able to understand everything going on on the frequency would not impact situational awareness. I flew UHF only military aircraft for 16 years and was very frustrated at not knowing what was going on around me. I have flown in Central America and Europe and not been able to understand the Spanish or French. I have also spent A LOT of time flying in and out of ORD where I was really glad I understood all of what was being said.

No, but I don't gain it. Therefore, not having as much SA as I could have IF everybody was speaking the same language.

This would only have made a difference IF everybody had been using the same language. The ultimate difference between not hearing a transmission, hearing only half of a transmission or not understanding a transmission is..........nothing.

That's his point. :mad:
How would you know? Answer this truthfully - How would you know that you hadn't missed a vital piece of information if it was transmitted in a language that you did not understand? Don't bother actually because it'll be nonsense. I'll answer for you. YOU WOULDN'T.

Thanks for the definition but there really is no need to state the bleeding obvious.

...and I didn't ask you for your personal yet useless opinion. Maybe you should stick to national flying, if you get soooo scared. Your counter arguments are generic, overblown, baseless and indicate very little experience.

Anyone,
Explain me how pilots, even with their T-CAS equipment (range around 30 miles ?:confused:), even with everyone speaking the same language can get any FULL situation awareness when the situation "spreads" over more than 150 miles around them, up to 30 planes on the same freq...
Controllers can be aware of a conflict more than 200 miles before the planes can even see each-other on their equipment.

I don't dare pretend being aware of the situation in the sectors next to mine, even though my colleagues speak the same language(s). That's why we need co-ordinations, whatever the language.

As I already said in other posts, I think my French colleagues and me are ready to speak only English on the freq (already the case more than 90% of the time in Brest ACC), but I don't foresee any improvement for pilot's awareness.

As for Russians speaking only English, I'm afraid the only result will be that some of the Russian pilots won't understand anymore (or as well) what they're requested for, as described by s_bakmeijer.
Hope not.

Lord Spandex Masher,Could you imagine that maybe a vital information (which YOU are concerned about) would be transmitted to YOU in YOUR language ?

When you hear a controller screaming : "Immédiatement, tournez a gauche 30 degrés pour évitement, immédiatement, à gauche 30 degrés !", then you may consider this info is not for you.
When you hear : " Immediately, your callsign, turn left 30 degrees, avoiding action, immediately, your callsign, left 30 !", consider you are concerned.
You will get the traffic infos in YOUR language in a few seconds... However, as you were already aware of the situation, should I assume you already know why you've got to turn ?

Squawk7777,

Can I ask how many languages you speak?

Weary

Oh well, you got it anyway, if you don't want opinions or comment then don't get involved in discussions. If my comments are so generic, overblown, baseless and inexperienced then you should have no problem at all in addressing them, funny that you didn't though. The rest of your extremely presumptuous attempt to discredit me is, and can only be, groundless nonsense.

All of my professional flying has been international. I, therefore, have a fairly good working knowledge of all the languages of all of the countries that I fly to and over. On many occasions I have had to translate what is going on for my F/O, ergo the F/O has less SA than I do, if nobody is able to translate then both the F/O and Captain have less SA than they could. Get it yet?

Also as I have such experience, and by no means am I the only one, I can see both sides of the argument.

BrATCO, of course I expect that. But, I have witnessed ATC, obviously stressed, attempt to transmit repeatedly to a non-national airline in his own language at high speed several times until the penny dropped and he transmitted in English. Then the message got through but...!

There are also many national airlines who employ non-national crew. Now you have a national airline callsign, usually using the national language, being spoken to, as is the habit, in the national language but with nobody on board who speaks it! Again................and the penny drops.

Not only that but even if you don't think the information is pertinent to me, and 99% of the time it may not be, it's still a little bit of gen I can store away and use if and when it becomes necessary.

There is only one solution to these problems - Chinese Mandarin, it is the most widely used language in the world.

Look its like this. ATC should be in english. If they arent it is to you to request that information in english. If you think its unreasonable for you to ask 30 other planes that information in english... so do they. Afterall theyre there to work it out and its what they think. The Russians arent gonna speak english and the spanish arent and french arent and youll have to deal with it sorry! Safety first is what theyll say

A gentle reminder. It is the pilot community who chooses the language in which to communicate in - Not ATC. A pilot talks to ATC first in the language of their choice. Is it not therefore the pilot's community's choice on what represents a better working environment for SA and any other aspects one wants to derive from this?

I vote for Esperanto : no jealous...:}

Some companies use "surprising" languages sometimes : pilots from a Quebec company speak English or French, some "French" pilots (with a French national company's calsign) speak English, some "N" registrated speak French... depending on the crew's nationality, of course.
When it happens, we write a big "GB" or "F" on the strip.
This procedure won't be possible anymore when we change to e-stripping...
Just wait for it.

:ok:
You may be correct here, after all.

Hello also for Squawk7777...
I enjoy sometimes to communicate in some other then English language with ATC. And here is a question for French ATC.
I will put it in English somehow.

Why they do not come to SIMPLE way of saying the numbers,
(not at home but over RT)
Why they pronounce 132.985 as
( hundred and thirty two nine hundred four times twenty ten and sixteen)
cent trente-deux neuf cent quatre-vingt-quinze

Any New French Phraseology for Pilots coming from Montreal ?

(unite trois deux neuf huit cinq)
so much easier, right ?

Green Guard,
In fact, we would say "Cent trente deux, neuf cent trente cinq" ("hundred and thirty-two, nine hundred and eighty-five") just because that's the way we speak "at home".
"Un trois deux, neuf huit cinq" (one tree two, nine eight five) sounds weird. But we may have to use it with frequencies like 130.235, which can be heard 132.135 in French.

English pilots do the same : they often forget they have to speak English phraseology, which is a bit different from English language.

"2" has to be pronounced "too"
"3" has to be pronounced "tree"
"5" has to be pronounced "fife"...

I often hear readbacks sounding like "One thee thee thee thee five" for 133.225 (or was that 122.225, or maybe 133.335, or...) with a perfect English accent...:p

BrATCO
 

"neuf cent trente cinq" ("nine hundred and eighty-five") just because that's the way we speak "at home".

Then I guess your home is not in France.

OOOps !:eek:
That must be the reason why my job is not at home... not easy to focus with the children around...:O

I assume this pilot will call back to confirm the freq...("neuf cent quatre-vingt cinq")

And you're right : I live in Brittany.

Lord Spandex Masher

You say that Chinese Mandarin is the most widely used language in the world. Don't you really mean that it is the language spoken by the largest amount of people in the world? You don't hear the language much outside of China.

T21, indeed, I was only being facetious but thanks for pointing out my error.

Nothing is going to stop people using their own language whilst talking to people of their nationality. We'll just have to live with it.

BrATCO,
Esperez que vous avez recu les gamins au lit sans probleme.

Curiosity compels me to ask if Brittany is considered to be French or not?

Technically, Brittany is part of France.

Now, if you ask a Britton, the answer could differ a bit, even though we don't ask for independence any more.