First Officer logging PIC Time. Yes or No?
 

Hey guys I need help...

If I am employed as an FO on a multi-crew, twin-turbine aircraft over 12,500 lbs, e.g. a B1900 or a J41 how do I log flying time?

I have been told that when I am Pilot-Non-Flying it is as SIC and when I am Pilot-Flying it is as PIC.

Is this correct?? I was under the impression that even if I am Pilot-Flying on say a 2 hour leg; those 2 hours are still SIC because I am the First Officer and not the Captain. Only the Captain is "PIC".

Licences concerned would be FAA and JAA. I'm looking forward to some good advice on this one as I am totally confused.

Its much appreciated. Cheers!!

You can log your PF time as PICUS.

The following is a section of LASORS

Its really quite simple, if you have a captains type rating you can be pilot in command, if you don't you can't.

FAA you can log anytime you are the sole manipulator of the controls as PIC. Technically if the a/p is on and you are p/f you cant log pic but i did it anyway since the cant check of the a/p was on or not ;)

JAA, you can't log PIC if you are f/o.
You can log PICUS as said but only if the company has a aproved PICUS program, and then only op to 150 hours. The PICUS program is for getting the 150 Hrs PIC required for the ATPL and since a lot of pilots with the integrated pilot program that go straight to a "ATPL" airplane dont have sufficent PIC hours to reiceive an ATPL. But remember writing PICUS is more than beeing P/F you have to be acting as commander under supervision, You also need to take all commander desicions. So part of the PICUS program is a command training , and usually done with copilots opgrading to commander. (at least here with us).

The value of hours picus is to be debated with a new job anyway. any comapany will understand that somebody with "to many" PICUS hours was flying as an F/O anyway

If you wanna keep track of your P/F hours just make a collum in your logbook with P/F

and remember if you are logging PICUS let the PIC sign your logbook.


Good luck,

SOAB

Son of a Beech
 

The distinction has to be made between PICUS and PIC. The original question clearly states PIC, I refer to my previous post, PIC on an aircraft that requires a type rating needs a full PIC type rating, I have SIC on the Hawker, I wish I could log some PIC but its just not on.

NuName, as far as I know, there are only PIC ratings under EU-Ops (JAR), I dont think you can get an FO/P2 rating.

At the company I work for, everyone does the same type rating, LPC/OPC, only difference is, to be a captain, you have to:

meet the company hour requirements
attend and pass the command ground course
pass the command sim assessment
complete the PIC line training and line check

south coast
 

I don't know about that, my UK licence is gathering dust somewhere, havnt used it for years, all I know is if you havnt got a PIC rating you cant be PIC, if you have that, all you need is the consent of the operator, insurance and commander and away you go.

As I said, I believe that is the only type of rating (PIC) one can do under JAR, so I dont think that principle works.

What happens then, if the candidate does not have the required 1,500 hours, FATPL EASA, CPL FAA, therefore cannot be typed on a >12,500 lb aircraft as captain (for hire and reward), FAA is obvious, do EASA recognise the candidate as PIC without a full ATPL? How does that work? Are you sure there is no EASA SIC rating?

I believe the rating doesnt determine whether you are captain or not, I believe it is firstly down to the licence you hold, (ATPL or CPL) and then your company internal requirements and assessments.

For example as I said at our company, everyone does the same type rating (as there is only one type available), and then the company determine who is a captain.

You can have to pilots flying together, with exactly the same rating, both with ATPL licence, one pilot with 3000 hours has passed the command assessment etc, the other could have 10,000 hours but not passed the command assessment and is not a captain, even if he was a captain at his previous company.

If you have to have a ATPL to hold a type rating to fly as captain on a particular aircraft for hire and reward, then, you cannot fly that aircraft as captain (for hire and reward) if you do not have an ATPL, it really must be as simple as that, no? The insurance implications speak for themselves.

Yes, but the point I was making was, even if you have a CPL (fATPL) you still do the same type rating as the guy who has a full ATPL sat next to you.

Anyway, doesnt matter, you are quite right in that the minimum you must have to be a captain is an ATPL and then adhere to your employer's requirements.

Thats all I was saying as per the original question, I hope I didnt appear argumentitive, allthough I can be, it was also for my info.

I am not sure why this question always seems to come up.
It is a simple answer, and spelt out in the FAA and ICAO regs. if you are not designated as a PIC, in your company, and on the trip authority then you CANNOT log PIC time. If you are designated by your company as a F/O. You CANNOT log PIC time. If you are not the PIC on the flight but are the PF, You CANNOT log PIC time. The fact that you are the pilot flying in a multi crew aeroplane does not automatically make you the PIC. The PIC is a designation, he is the Pilot in Command, not the Pilot flying.
And before you all start making excuses about CFI's and receiving duel, under the hood etc. We are talking about a MULTI CREW ON DEMAND/SCHEDULED COMMERCIAL OPERATION. There can be only 1 PIC.
PICUS is a different story

B200Drvr's statement is correct.:ok:

Contract4, As far as my legal understanding of EU-OPS goes, there is only one PIC, and thats the Commander of the aircraft. You cannot have both pilots of a two-crew aircraft claiming P1 at the same time. (Except P1/S..... see below)

Confusion seems to exist about the definition of PIC and PF. As a co-pilot you can only ever log time as P2. You may annotate your logbook as PF or PNF, but it all has to go in the P2 column.

P1/S is only loggable after a satisfactory check ride as a Commander....... an example of such would be a line check, or LST/LPC/OPC, and has to be countersigned by the check pilot.

We fly two crew corporate on various types. On JAR types there is no distinction between P1 and SIC as far as licencing is concerned. If a type rated crew member is driving (his or her turn, which in our outfit is most of the time) we let him or her log the time as P1. Simple really, - old farts in LHS don't need to log time, so why not give it away.

On types that a crew member is rated SIC only, (N or validated on other registrations), whatever role he or she flies, it is logged as P2 - only because they are not licenced to fly as P1, so it would be muppetry to try and claim it as such.

Deefer dog.

On the N an SIC does not allow you to log PIC.

The other consideration is insurance! Most insurance have a minimum set of hours to fly as PIC.

Basically if you dont have the insurance hour requirements to fly as PIC then the aircraft is not insured which in itself is illegal?

Pace

@deefer dog - what you say doesn't make any sense to me at all because that is not the point.

The point is who is responsible if things go wrong in your cockpit and who has the final say ? From what you're saying, it would be the pilot flying, because it is his leg and he is logging P1. Or is that the point where command suddenly gets retransferred ? Sure it is Multi Crew, but who is legally responsible ?

I am P1 rated on my current type, but if I am flying designated as First Officer I would never claim P1 status and log the hours with one exeption: my commander becomes incappacitated and I have to take full control.

Even JAR is quite clear on this, that the comander legally responsible claims to log the P1 hours. If it where otherwise this whole PICUS thing wouldn't make sense. PICUS is for training purposes towards a higher licence - therefor they can be logged as PICUS. The guy supervising is still PIC and can log those hours accordingly.

It is not about who flies the aircraft, but about who is legally responsible and accountable. Nowhere in the Law do I read the FO being accountable for anything.

These definitions should be understood equally by all in order to assertain a proper record of experience and to avoid distortons. If someone starts logging P1 who is not the commander, he is actually frauding his records and will put those of us, who log our hours the politically correct way at a certain disadvantage. What is the point of flight logging, if everyone does it in a different way, as it suits them ?

Actually there is a distinction between SIC (COP entry) and PIC ratings in JAA, however some countries, especially the UK, choose not to use that distinction (remember, licensing is still national law that incorporates some european requirements, not direct EU law like EU-OPS). In countries which support that there are some restrictions. With a COP rating you can obviously not fly as PIC and are restricted to flying on the usual copilot station, in transport aircraft the right hand seat, with a PIC rating you can only fly the usual PIC station, the left hand seat. If you want to fly in the other one you need to get special training and checking every 6 months to show proficiency there.

The Beech 1900 is not a multi-crew aircraft. It can however be flown in a multi-crew OPERATION.

A captain is someone PIC type rated, current and ASSIGNED as captain, by the company, for a SPECIFIC flight.
That means that if I am not assigned as captain for a specific flight, even though I am a captain with my company, I cannot log the flight as PIC time. My colleague will then be the one assigned as captain for that flight and we cannot both log PIC time for the same flight.

CP

Thanks Guys
 

Wow!

This sure is the right place to ask questions. As I had originally thought; I cannot log PIC time as I am not the captain. I was just really confused when I was told to the contrary by a supposedly 'knowledgeable' source.

Its always best to get a second oppinion, and a third, and a fourth.....

Thanks everyone for the advice.

:ok:

You can log anything you want. The real question is what the particular airline you are applying to considers PIC time.

Contract4
 

If you are flying in Europe with a JAA license, then your log book should be JAA compliant and to that end should not have an SIC column as this is an FAA term.

Under JAA regulation while acting as PF you may log those hours as PIC/US w
PIC/US stands for Pilot in Command Under Supervision.

While acting as PNF this time is logged in the P2 column

Under JAA regs there is only one type rating which is no different which ever seat you occupy.

Under FAA regulations they have the SIC qualification for those pilots that do not pass a full P1 type rating, we do not have this situation under JAA/EU regulations.

So many people have explained this in previous posts I hope this is now clear and that PIC is different to PIC/US in your log book, 2 different columns.

From a hotel room some where.

Mav:ok:

Maverick, please go back and read JAR FCL 1.080 again, especially FCL 1.080 (c) (5), think about the term "provided that the method of supervision is acceptable to the Authority", that there is absolutely nothing mentioned of who is at the controls while doing a PICUS sector, and then rethink your post. By the way, rereading this whole thread and those others floating around on this board wouldn't go amiss either.

In the u.k. the PIC/US rules are remarkably lax, but in nearly all other european countries you can only log PIC/US time during an approved course that specifies a rigid "method of supervision", usually the command course. Othwerwise you have to log all flights as Co-pilot.

Threads like this make me wonder why I spent all that time, energy, money in playing it straight....

I will just say this, yet again....if the chief pilots are going to allow in all this parker pen time, that is where the problem starts....it's not with a few of the pilots playing this game....

Surely a pilot with a brain cell know's when he is pilot in command. If he is any doubt then he certainly should not be there. A log (lie) book should show appropriate SIC time and its not hard to spot when it does not. This whole conversation must be about peeps trying to portray something that is untrue or marginal at best. Most of the professional pilots I know no longer bother with it and fill in their log books as a matter of duty, legality or justification of requirements. If your not sure if you can log PIC then obviously YOU CAN'T.
PS. I do accept that one can write anything they like in their personal flying log book but I am assuming this thread is about what one can truthfully write. :cool:

For me this is simple. Are you licenced to fly that particular aircraft as commander of that aircraft.

I know that if I fly a corporate jet with a guy who has an SIC he is flying from the right and we do an altitude bust its me who will carry the can not him.

The commander of the aircraft is just that if your in the right seat, something goes wrong and you carry the can then you are PIC. If you point the finger at the guy in the left seat and say my mistake BUT im only the FO he is the Captain then ???? There has to be a /US

Pace

If you are signing the tech log, PIC. If not, then not - no matter how much you wanna be or think you sould be. Are you the one who's gonna carry the can when it all goes to a ball of ****e? - if not, it's not PIC.

This is very obvious to me and I wonder why the question has even been asked.
If you are employed as a first officer then ALL your flying is P2.
If you are employed as a captain then all your flying is P1 unless you fly with another Captain and forfill the role of a first officer. There is only one Commander.

End of. If not you are lying to all and yourself.

JAR-FCL 1.080 (c) is clear, unambiguous, and will dispel the myths evident in this thread.....

End Of.

BM

First Officer logging PIC Time. Yes or No?
 

You know, I don't care what anything says. If you read the above its an oxymoron, if you are the first officer then quite simply you are not the pilot in command. :ugh:

I think the misnoma here is PIC U/S. This is a 'get out' term used for the benefit of the First Officers traning with respect to being brought up to speed to pass a command course.

The AOC holder MUST nominate the aircraft commander and will specify the requirements laid down to do so.

If you do not meet the AOC holders requirements, i.e. You haven't passed the command course, you are Co-Pilot and therefore NOT PIC. If the AOC holder considers all pilots to be equal and all to hold the rank of PIC then a designated Commander for each individual flight must be nominated, the other pilot become the FO and thus Second in Command.

The FO, no matter if holding the same rating, licence or with more experience and hours, is not the PIC and can only log PIC if the Captain croaks during the flight.

One Commander, who will allow PIC U/S to be logged only if they want to and the company rules allow.

The purpose is not to log P1 time but only for meeting the requirements to unfreeze an ATPL.

There is no reason to log PICUS once unfrozen and at that point everything is P2.

Wow - EVERYONE needs to slow down on this one.:mad:

First and foremost, for the legal side of things there can only be one Pilot-in-Command during a flight. Period. Got it? :ok:

Pilot-in-Command under supervision (PICUS) is a Training Event during which time the First Officer may log Pilot-in-Command time so long as they meet certain minimum requirements as outlined in the regulations and the Company Operations Manual.

PICUS does not denote who is legally in charge of the aircraft. Although the First Officer must operationally make all the decisions, they do not hold the licence and are therefore not legally the pilot in command of a Transport Category aircraft. They are, however able to log the time as Pilot-in-Command as it is considered training. The actual Pilot-in-Command is also able to log, Pilot-in-Command time.

Here are the requirements as it applies to a specific airline in Canada:




1. PICUS may be aquired from the co-pilots seat provided all the PIC functions described below can be performed from that seat, otherwise a minimum of 10 hours under PICUS must be conducted from the Pilot-in-Command seat:2. The conditions for PICUS applicants are as follows:3. The applicant who meets those conditions are credited with:There are some additional references to who the training pilot can be, some paperwork stuff and other "non-essential to the discussion" information, but I'll leave that all out.

Suffice it to say that you just don't go ahead and log PICUS - you have to be approved in your COM, the Training Pilot has to be approved by the operator and the Pilot has to complete paperwork much the same as your initial Line Indoc, you can only log so much, and the aircraft has to be able to perform almost all the tasks from the right seat as from the left and if you're doing it from the left, you cant have people in the back.

You do have to make a notation in the "REMARKS" Section of your personal log too that shows it as PICUS, e.g YYZ-YOW-YUL-YYZ (PICUS). That way they know that when you have written in 3.0, they are only counting 1.5 (and if you write in 1.5 they are going to doc that down by 1/2 so always put in the full amount UNLESS STATED OTHERWISE IN THE COM).

I hope this all helps.