VP-BAF Samedan 12th Feb 2009 (Split From Samedan Overrun)
 

Samedan again, Falcon 10 crash on the 12th of February

tagesanzeiger.ch: Nichts verpassen

http://is.blick.ch/img/gen/V/Q/HBVQv..._r_900x633.jpg

SpokoKolo

Looks really bad. Anybody got a metar for that time?

edit:

Now that's good journalism.... :ugh:

(free translation): The conditions for landings at Samedan Airport, located at 1707m are difficult at the moment, because the snow is several meters high.

What's their point? It's not on the runway, and there all winter :yuk:

Vis was 3km, OVC at 3000ft and light snow.

Two more images:

http://www.20min.ch/images/content/2...topelement.jpg

http://www.20min.ch/images/content/2...97853/32/2.jpg

No, I am not perfect. But I also wouldn't dream of flying into Samedan in 3k vis and ovc030. Of course I don't know if those were the conditions. And no, I am not too touched by this accident. I did not know anybody involved and I can't possibly be touched by all the other lifes that are lost everyday. And no, I don't believe in God either.

What FF says: shut yer trap and wait
 

Lszs 121450z 36006kt 320v020 3000 -sn Ovc030 M09/m11 Q1006=
Lszs 121420z 04005kt 3000 -sn Ovc030 M08/m11 Q1005=
Lszs 121350z Vrb02kt 3500 Vcsh Sn Ovc040 M08/m11 Q1005=

-metar Lszs
 

3000/3000 isn´t great for LSZS, but on the pic 18 minutes later it doesn´t look that bad...

rip.

http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/7070/samedanpe7.jpg

Who do you refer to?

RIP
 

FF

Mate, even if you tragically lost a friend during that sad accident, members of this network are free to add comments of their own. You and I might not share their views and inputs, but that is the way it is.

FallenFoul,

I'm genuinely sorry for your loss. For those of us who actually do this job, these sort of things do touch us. Deeply. Hopefully everyone else will treat this with the same respect as if it were one of their friends/colleagues.

Our prays are with you and the families.

Chips

Does this plane have a CVR?

PS: Thanks for cutting/censoring this post of mine, appreciated! I had made a comment that was not showing any bad will or attack on any one, it was just a remark: Sad, sad, sad.... I hope it was not an error by the crew through pressure of the client. I stand to my words, this was not any attack anyone, just a remark and that I wish that it was not this way.

why is that Duck? for legal reasons or in case someone gets all overcome with emotions and can't find the logout button?:E

after all this is just a comic book akin to the Sun or Daily Star (National Enquirer to our US comrades)

yes because they tragically were involved in an aviation accident they deserve all our condolances and thoughts and so on. Had it been under many, if not most, other circumstances no one on this thread (save friends and family that might be on here) would have even known about the loss, and if you had you would not have encouraged the rest of us to pray for them. If your thoughts have to be with anybody it should be with real sufferes of this world and that category of people is never the subject on this forum.

In my opinion this is no more nor less tragic then the loss of life in other circumstances, families suffer the same no matter how it happens but it seems that when it happens in aviation there is this exaggeration of how tragic it is, in both media and by some on here.

keep it real folks, it's tragic, they deserve our respect but please don't tell me who I should pray for

It has long been held on this site that those who actually know/knew the people involved in fatal incidents will be able to make their feelings known to their friends and families first hand so won't need to post such messages here.

By all means the rest of us can learn from and (properly) discuss the incident(s) while harbouring whatever thoughts we like but wailing and gnashing of teeth is quite meaningless as are guessing, speculation, accusatory comments and posts that say nothing other than "I never knew them but.....".

Yes, those involved and the bereaved deserve our respect. The best way that we, their fellow professionals, can show that respect is to bear the above in mind before clicking on 'Submit Reply'.

Duck

My condolences to the families that have lost their loved ones in this tragedy.

Can I suggest that the threads are split, as has been done, but one is clearly named as a "condolence" thread and the other as a "accident investigation" thread. Whilst I appreciate the sensitivities of discussing such an event it is nevertheless desirable to learn lessons from this and other peoples experiences; especially at an airfield such as Samedan; and if it is done sensibly.


A moment later Jonathan’s body wavered in the air, shimmering, and began to go transparent. “Don’t let them spread silly rumors about me, or make me a God. O.K., Fletch? I’m a seagull. I like to fly.....

from Jonathan Livingston Seagull by Richard Bach

As I've written in the past anyone is free to start a condolences thread.

Duck

For what it is worth, I was on a skibus from the Corvatschbahn heading towards Samedan at the time of the aircraft landing. I could see it was landing towards the NE and into a heavy snow shower. My own thoughts at the time were that the weather conditions were not very suitable to attempt a landing although I had no idea of what landing aids were available at the airport.

I was not aware that an accident had occurred until I read about it in the "Enagadiner Post" on saturday.

For information I am not a professional aviator, but I do hold an FAA PPL licence.

@washingtondave: you might be a critical witness, may I suggest to contact the Swiss Air Accident investigators, called BFU, under:


BFU - Kontaktformular

Since Samedan is a pure VFR airfield, holding "only" a PPL does not mean you aren´t a pilot that could not have been flying there...

Although I can't locate any official statement on the BFU web site various media report that all operations have been suspended at the Samedan airport due to the excessive amount of snow around the runaway (apparently there is only 8m worth of usable airstrip although I find this hard to believe...).

Might or might not been a contributing factor...

According to the article in the "Engadiner Post" at the time of the accident it was cloudy with visibility of 3km and a cloudbase of 3000 feet. I saw an aircraft, which I assume was the one involved in the accident, making an approach through a very heavy snow shower. Being on the ground in a bus at the time I cannot say what the visibility would be for an approaching aircraft.

I had been able to see the airport from the ski-slopes during the week and the runway and taxi-way appeared clear. However, there had been heavy snowfall in the region and all railway lines and roads were cleared through the snow with high banks of snow at the edges. I would assume that there would be considerable amounts of snow accumulated at the edges of the runway from the runway clearance and that the aircraft involved in the accident has hit one of these snow-walls ( ".... prallte gegen eine Schneemauer" - Engadiner Post).

Interesting Snippet Posted On Swissinfo.ch
 

February 16, 2009 - 8:04 PM http://www.swissinfo.ch/08/images/icons/print.gifhttp://www.swissinfo.ch/08/images/icons/send.gif http://www.swissinfo.ch/08/images/icons/rss_feed.gif
Flights halted at Samedan

No planes will be permitted to land at the airport in Samedan, near St Moritz, until the authorities there have met international guidelines for clearing snow.

The Federal Civil Aviation Office imposed the ban on Monday, as part of its investigation into a fatal crash at the mountain airport on Thursday.
A Falcon jet smashed into a bank of snow and broke up, killing two of its occupants and seriously injuring a third.
Investigators said the walls of snow around the runway were between 1.5 and four meters high, whereas they should not exceed one meter. Furthermore, the runway had only been cleared to a width of eight meters instead of ten.
The office said it may demand further steps in the light of its investigations. Other Swiss aerodromes will be examined in the next few days to check that they are conforming to the guidelines.
The airport at Samedan is Europe's highest, at 1707 meters. Thursday's accident was the first fatal jet crash in the airport's history.

Small consolation to the bereaved, but looks as if the blame lies squarely with the airport authorities then.

I for one hate going into these places, Sion and to a lesser extent Chambery and would be pleased to see them all shut....

It never ceases to amaze me how dumb some of our rich punters are insisting that we roll the dice of fate rather than taking a ride from a more sensible destination like GVA or ZRH.......

The wx reporting at these places is pretty cr£p too. man just pops his head out of the office looks up and confirms we have 8K and 8000 feet.therefore good to go.........
Turned the corner in the valley and solid IMC...........God help us if a donkey had quit.

A contact I have reckoned that an I- registered Premier 1 had taxied back to the ramp instead of taking off on the afternoon that the Falcon crashed. They weren't sure if it was due to the weather closing in (which it apparently had), or due to another reason (tech/pax). Apparently the aircraft had only landed 30 minutes earlier, and the weather had changed fairly quickly.

Don't know if this info is accurate, and how long before the Falcon accident it was???

[quote]=[It never ceases to amaze me how dumb some of our rich punters are insisting that we roll the dice of fate rather than taking a ride from a more sensible destination like GVA or ZRH......./QUOTE]

That TT is why you have a job! If they wanted to go to GVA or ZCH, they could get there very cheaply and frequently by scheduled airline. Neither of those airports are anywhere near Samedan (3 hr drive from ZCH and about 5 hrs fm GVA).
If you call Engadin tower before departing, in my experience, they will give you an extremely good forecast of the local conditions for the next 12 hours or so. You can go to their webcam and look for yourself if you don't believe them.
As observed earlier, this is the first fatal jet accident at LSZS; sure it requires extra care, but then so do many others in Europe.
So maybe your "punters' are not so much dumb, but expecting you to be a professional and tell them whether they can get in or not!

Paradise lost +1

+1 !

If you don't like flying to special airports, maybe you should consider EasyJet or Air Berlin as an employer. The fly to GVA and ZRH only :)

Or you could join Ryanair who for a long time have got away with flying into "special Airports".......................one day they will have a Samedan.

Despite the Ra Ra macho brigade bareing their chest hairs I actualy agree that Samedan was an accident waiting to happen (first fatality but anecdotally there have been a lot of near misses). I too dislike Sion as well as Samedan.

These destinations are intrinsically dangerous and with the commercial pressure to go, the dice is loaded against all but the most professional and strong willed. ......and dont kid me that with the mortgage to pay and jobs scarce there are not those who go when they should not.

They are NOT dangerous. Pilots who cannot make up their own mind and take a responsible decision whether the weather is good enough to land or not are dangerous. I have been flying to Sion, Samedan, Chambery, London-City, Biggin Hill etc.for a few years now. Be a man and say NO! if it is not good enough. If you get into trouble for sasying NO! you are probably with the wrong employer and better leave. If you do not leave, please stop whinging.

Excuse me Sheik, but I strongly disagree. Samedan certainly requires a pilot that has made up his mind for the evantualities, but the hype that is been made by various authorities on airports that have been turned into "simulator" and/or procedure only airfields is already enough. (Like Bolzano, Chambery, Ajaccio, Albenga, Lugano, London City) If you cant go in LSZS without wetting your pants, then don´t do it. I have been there about 50 times with airplanes varying from C172 to Challenger 300 and I can´t say I find it dangerous. More demanding than the regular airfield, but manageable.

I have been on all the mentioned Airfields before the regulations and I can´t say where it really was necessary to regulate, at least for VFR conditions. London City in a KingAir or CJ? WTF would one need a simtraining???

We certainly don´t need more of this bulls...

His Dudeness...

I couldn't agree more strongly. The over categorisation of some airfields is quite shocking. However some basic training is very important. This is an unfortunate accident. We are paid, in this job, to go to destinations such as this. If you don't like it, leave, go to an airline flying the same boring routes day-in and day-out.

I regularly operate out of Sion, Chambery, La Mole, Samedan, Bolzano and a few others to name. As a Line Trainer, I also take Crews to these places. They are safe, as long as the Crews involved are properly trained.

As for commercial pressure...that should NEVER affect your decision, even if your job is at stake. That is the unprofessional attitude which results in an accident.

My deepest condolences for the families of those involved.

SKP

What does anybody not understand about 'VFR only' with regards to approaching fields like Samedan and Sion, etc. With respect to snow berms alongside the runway, that is a different matter.

All right ,you hairy-chests,or perhaps hairy a$%%ES,perhaps you could ,in your professional capacities,give the figures you use for your aircraft,or the Falcon,if you know it, for the LDR,TODR,ASDA,ETC,for the conditions(use the piccy as a reference).Also,as you all seem to operate there,or thereabouts,what do you know about the requirements for runway swept clearances and braking action checks,at such airfields and how they are measured/utilised/passed to aircrew in flight?What is the MAProc,if it turns crap?Does theairfield spray `graffiti` paint on snow berms/banks as is common in Canada in the snow season,to show where the edges are,?,or do you all pull the `private plug` and hope you`ll be ok ?

PS,forgot,is the runway grooved,and sanded?

I guess you refer to me as well? (oh, I´d love to have hear on the chest...)

I for one would not land in 3 km vis at LSZS. I would not land on a snowcovered rwy with no BA report. And I operate (these days) G.

But let me add: I definetaly don´t judge the pilots of that Falcon. If you go overhead and see the airfield and you feel you can "make it" safely, then...a Metar is a report probably 29,5 minutes old.

What I for one won´t do - or at least I try to avoid that - is to put me in a "no alternative available position"

If I could see the field but would have to race against time and a solid thick shower - pull up, see the alternate.


I have not seen the notams/snowtams for LSZS on that day. IF there was no BA report and the rwy looked on the approach like it looked on the pics AFTER the accident, I probably would have not tried to land.

Anyways, always easy to judge with hindsight.

MAPproc? You MUST be able to stay VFR AND climb above MSA. Thats (in my book) the whole story there...

Runway
 

All these types of airports require special care and planning. It´s obvious. The pilots of this aircraft were regular visitors, I was told the following day, having landed an aircraft with a 20m wingspan in vmc. The chart material states that the runway width is 40 meters. Someone mentioned Falcon 10 having a span of 13 m. Swiss VFR regs alllow flying to Samedan in surprisingly low visibility. Only condition: Ability to turn in valley. Obviously this is very useful for those who are familiar with the surroundings. If you´re not, personal judgement is required, always. Following a valley down low VMC, turning a corner and facing IMC conditions, as described earlier by a contributor, well....phew!! Tricky. In any case, good planning, phone call to the tower, webcam, checking webcams in surroundings (swisswebcams.ch)...radio call to the tower etc...and Samedan is a great place to visit, fun to fly into and perfectly safe. Great Latte at the cafe, good pie. And the view! the view!:D

Does anyone know who the operator of VP-BAF is ?

If the airport is indeed closed to fixed wing traffic, does that mean that aircraft are trapped there (based a/c or visiting aircraft that were on the ground)?

I'd imagine there would have been quite a few machines on the deck as it is prime skiing/school holiday season/

Yes, They would be stuck there. Thats why a lot of us would quick turn there to get out as many operators cant afford having an aircraft weathered in. Easier to jump to Zurich until the pax need collecting or they can drive out to meet their aircraft elsewhere. so yes, its a VFR airfield for departures too..

I think the question was more about aircraft being stuck there until the airport's status has been decided and it re-opens rather than due to weather.

Sometimes it pays to read the whole thread ;)