I have to kinda agree. ssg in its many iterations got banned for just spouting nonsense, but this post from 411A really bustet the normal standards of a normal discussion, he should be banned.

Banned? Why, we need our illiterate cousins around for entertainment

Exactly what is US English 411A? There is English and..........oh yes, English.

Having lived out in your country and being married to a yank, you have a good country, but your attitude is quite Draconian and doesn't endear itself to the US regaining popularity around the world. A population of 300 million that seems to unjustly get tarred with the same brush because of you're El Supremo. It will be a real schock to middle America when Barak or Hilary lands the top job, because you get bet your bottom dollar it won't be the Republicans again.....

As you say over there; get with the programme and try and work with people not against them..

Have a nice day now.

Not quite sure what 'bustet' refers to, however...the real objection to the USA seems to be, we have...

Lower fuel costs
Lower (or no, depending on the specific airport) landing fees,
Lower parking fees,
NO fees for filing a flight plan or obtaining a weather briefing,
And, a much larger business aviation fleet than anyone else on the planet, that is represented by powerful business interests that keep the regulatory authorities at bay, theirby keeping costs down.

In short, all the items that the UK/European business operators wish they had, but simply don't.

As a result, UK/European business aircraft operators (and their overworked/underpaid pilots, who have to stand in line at the US consulate for a visa...oh, boo hoo:{) are resentful...nothing more nor less.

One suggestion.
IF the pilots, and indeed the business aircraft owners/operators wish to avoid operating their private aircraft to America, they have two simple choices.
1. Fly commercially
2. Stay home

Simple as that.

But of course, they won't stay home.
They will continue to fly here, mostly for the many business opportunities available presently...and their respective pilots will continue to bit*h and moan, and will send their passports to the US consulate for a visa, like it or not, simply because it is required to keep employed and still fly to the USA.
Will this change?
No.
Will the EU require visas for the pilots of American registered business jets?
Quite likely not...simply because they cannot get their collective act together.
And, even if they could, we simply don't care.

Does anyone know who 411 really is. I guess he will not own up to his ownidentity. If somebody does please let me know, I think his employer should read his vitriolic claptrap

411A, some advice for you. If you are going to criticise someones spelling make sure your own is up to snuff, capische? Otherwise it tends to backfire and make you look stupid.


Which is good enough already but when you see that the US$ is in the sh1tter compared to those pesky european currencies it makes it even cheaper for us to bring you the business. Good thing too really because let's face it, you need our money what with yours being worth next to nothing. Hell, there are third world economies doing better than yours at the moment.

If dealing with redneck bigots like yourself is the price of having these things we'll go without thanks and just make do with our history and culture.

This is my favourite part. I'd say type for type most european pilots earn 50-100% more than their american counterparts. I earn roughly DOUBLE that compared to the US$ paid guys I meet on recurrent.


Funnily enough several of the businessmen I've taken to the US recently said exactly the same thing except they were a bit more predatory about it. They can buy out US companies for peanuts because of the parlous state of the dollar and manufacturing costs are a fraction of those in the rest of the civilised world. Congratulations, your workforce is on par with far east sweat shops. You must be very proud.


And while you were busy not caring (and being smug about it) it's all started falling apart. I don't know about Clinton or Obama, I think even Mugabe could improve on the state of things there at the moment.




Just remind us again how great y'all are ;)






(I most sincerely apologise to my American relatives, friends and colleagues but an arse is an arse regardless of nationality and 411A is yours. See you in the bar:O).

what arguments? This thread was never about bashing the US, it was about what the EU/Schengen countries must do to insure a level playing field. I don't try to tell the US how to manage their aviation security, but say that we should enforce reciprocity, so as to insure both a level playing field, and an incentive to the US to relax some of their more bothersome and useless measures eventually.

Now I don't know why 411A would go off on a tangent about fuel prices and whose willy is more potent, because it does not have anything to do with the subject. We pay US fuel prices in the US, and our prices in the EU, as do US operators... duh!!!

I don't know either why 411A feels attacked by this thread (incidentally most airports in Europe don't allow Tristars anymore anyway, so big deal for him...). It's only ever US-bashing if people like him make it so, choosing deliberately to misinterpret what others say..

On a personal note (yes, I do that...), and having read some of 411A's choicer tidbits in the Tech forum, I fully agree that he is a complete moron with an ego problem the size of a Tristar fuel bill....

And, with the personal attack, completely disrupt your entire arguement.
Hey, maybe the US consulate will, at some future date, require a two day wait in line for your personal visa.
Will I, personally, have to wait in line at some obscure European consulate for a visa?
Not likely...simply because the 'Europeans' can't get their collective act together.
Who's fault is that?:}:}:E:E

Hey, maybe the US consulate will, at some future date, require a two day wait in line for your personal visa.

Some of us already do, get with the program.

Will I, personally, have to wait in line at some obscure European consulate for a visa?

Like most of us think; yes you should be standing outside an obscure European consulate and be barked at by a rent a cop who is sleeping a the gate and opens an eyelid each time the bell rings.

Why should American pilots be treated different then their European counterparts?

Oh boy, do I really have to defend 411A ?

"Hey, maybe the US consulate will, at some future date, require a two day wait in line for your personal visa.
Will I, personally, have to wait in line at some obscure European consulate for a visa?
Not likely...simply because the 'Europeans' can't get their collective act together.
Who's fault is that?"

THIS is simply true. Not putting up with the US is the fault of our politicians, voted by (some) of us. Not being united, not having the same legislation in vital parts of life, IS our fault.

The US still is sort of sacrosanct, maybe still because of their role some 65+ years ago.

I don't think 411A should be banned and I think that might be a tad unfair. Perhaps some heavy handed editing by a mod might be in order at times.

Actually 411A's posts are a source of entertainment for me at times.

Edited. Duck.


IF I was in charge of the State Department (for those that don't know...the US State Department, the folks who set the visa requirements), I would eliminate all this nonsense for CREW...and continue the visa-waiver program for European/UK visitors.

Except for the 'complainers'...for these, they can wait in line for five days, if necessary.
Simply don't care.:E
Will the UK/EU reciprocate?
No.
For the reason that was mentioned previously...cannot get their collective act together. They simply don't have the nerve.
His Dudeness was spot on.

Edited. Duck.
As for visas in general, have a crack at obtaining a Schengen one! It's quite a demeaning and expensive route if you want to come up to Europe from South Africa, for example. As for the USA'ers being a trifle ticklish about entry visas to their country, who can blame them with, at least by all accounts, all of the English wanting to leave their own wonderful land because they themselves are being pushed out by the eastern hordes, a by product of their own mismanaged policies?:hmm:

No.

This thread will not deriorate into another 'across the pond' bitchfest. By all means debate the visa issue but the old chestnuts are verboten and threads will be deleted or edited accordingly.


Duck

There are valid points to both sides of this argument. It is a pain to deal with, but it all comes with the job.

To 411, the landing fees and nav fees in the US are rolled into the price of fuel. Any chance you can produce a copy where it states that you paid $1.67 for fuel? I haven't paid that kind of price in the US since 2000 or so.

This is just a political tennis match and we are the ball. None of us wants (or needs, given the extensive documentation of our licenses, medicals and passports) the hassle of obtaining visas for our work.

The U.S. in a post-9/11 frenzy $h!t on everyone--friend or foe in a vain attempt to secure its borders (funny, thousands of Mexicans seem to have no problem entering without a visa each year...:hmm: ).

If both parties were concerned about crew security, we all could submit to a security screening process and get a valid crew visa that would be good for several years and easily renewable (unless found drinking Budweiser in Europe! := ).

It's clear that the U.S. Government is not the slightest bit concerned about REAL security or making the lives of aircrew less complicated.

Now, if we could just get SAFA checks banned at the end of the KLAX-LEMD flight... :{ TC

Ever heard of Phoenix Fuel, and purchasing in large lots?

Once the 'cheap' fuel is used, then the price is negotiated, up/down...mostly up at the moment.
Those that plan ahead save big bucks.

Totally agree the visa thing must be reciprocal.

The Australian authorities over reacted a few years ago and demanded every passenger that arrived, from most countries, have a visa. Of course now when an Australian passenger goes abroad, they need a visa, when visiting those countries.

Same should be demanded of crew visas, if this BS is to continue. However I think the whole crew visa thing is a sham and should be scrapped.

411A - I am willing to bet without a doubt that your fuel price is not under $4.00/gal., anywhere in the US. Besides our flight department we own our own FBO and purchase fuel from Phoenix fuels on a regualr basis in bulk and the fact is that the base price of fuel, before taxes is close to $4.00/gal. When you add in all the taxes the actual fuel cost is around 50 cents higher. Dont know who you are trying to fool, but seeing that this is an aviation forum you have to bet that most people on here can detect bulls..t from the truth.

I myself am American (a very ashamed one at the moment), and cannot agree more that the EU should require US crews to obtain visa's since that is whats required of them when flying into our country. Fair is fair.

It is true that flying the USD is much cheaper than in the EU (no landing fee's, flight planning fee's, etc.) but there is a reason for that. The US is much larger land wise, so naturally corporate aviation is used much more here and is much more streamlined. But take a look around a major EU airport, such as Frankfurt Germany and compare that airport with LAX.... LAX looks like a Greyhound bus terminal compared with Frankfurt. It is embarrasing! I have also never landed at an EU airport with deteriorating runways/taxiways. Where as even at the largest corporate airports here like VNY they are in horrible condition. All this costs money. And BTW - the potential for user fee's in the US is not going away, it will be a reality here shortly as well. Its sad to say, but the US is broke and you can see evidence of that everywhere you look here.

On behalf of the more educated Americans, I want to apologize on 411A's behalf. He is obviously one of those un-educated ignorant Americans that no matter what happens will always say and think that the US is the best country in the world. I sure hope it will one day return to its previous splendor having learned from its mistakes, but until then we are far from the best.

Very good first post on pprune g4pilot.. Welcome aboard..

As one of these "eurotrash" living in the US I can fully understand you not being proud of your homeland at the moment. Every time I hear the phrase "the greatest country in the world" I laugh hysterically. 99% of those saying this have probably never left the US borders. Whenever I'm outside of the US and people ask me where I'm from (my foreign accent is hard to detect) I always say I live in the US, BUT I'm from "inserting my home country" only to avoid any kind of bashing. This especially when in arabic countries.

The truth is that the PEOPLE of the US are mostly a great people to be around, it's their leaders who are at fault giving hem a bad rep. Yes the people elected the prick, but they have finally woken up and smelled the roses and it can only go up from here. In the past whatever came out of DC was always considered to be the truth, now it's finally OK to question things.

There are great things on both sides of the pond and I take the best from both worlds as much as I can. I believe we will all benefit from the US losing this reputation they have picked up during the last few years.

Btw, g4flyer, if you frequent any of the US aviation forums you will know me as "flyzimex or swedespeed".

flytci