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Seaplane down off Miami Beach
Something on CNN at the moment but couldn't be sure if it was an amphib, floatplane or what. They got divers out checking. They said it happened about 15mins ago so not the 195 from Sunday.
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Dec 19 3:17 PM US/Eastern
MIAMI BEACH, Fla. - A propeller plane carrying at least 17 people crashed Monday off Miami Beach, and at least two people were killed, authorities said. The plane went down shortly before 3 p.m. "We're still trying to get people out of the water," said Javier Otero, Miami Beach Fire Department support services chief. He said two people were confirmed dead. |
gotta link from the Miami Herald
Plane carrying 19 people crashes off Miami Beach; fatalitiesAssociated PressMIAMI BEACH, Fla. - A propeller plane carrying at 17 passengers and two crew members crashed Monday just off Miami Beach, and there were some fatalities, authorities said. The Chalk's Ocean Airways plane crashed into the water shortly before 3 p.m., said Miami Beach Fire Department support services chief Javier Otero. He said there were two confirmed fatalities and some survivors. "We're still trying to get people out of the water," Otero said. Otero said the plane was one that regularly schedules flights to and from the Bahamas, but he did not know immediately whether the aircraft was incoming or outgoing. Television helicopter footage showed a debis field in Government Cut, the channel that ships take into the Port of Miami past South Beach. Law enforcement boats and helicopters were in the area doing searches. The were joined by others in private boats, on Jet Skis and on surfboards. Chalk's Ocean Airways was founded in 1919. Its floating planes take off in the water. Chalk's aircraft have been featured in TV shows like "Miami Vice." |
Chalk Airlines
They fly some old Gruman amphibs (Widgeon's?) as a shuttle to a casino in the Bahama's. They have being covered in several articles in Flying etc
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... Gruman amphibs (Widgeon's?)...
Grumman Mallards converted to turbine (PT6) power. Witnesses (FWIW) report 'explosion' followed by wing failure. |
BBC: Seaplane crashes off Miami Beach
A plane carrying 16 people has crashed into water near Miami Beach in Florida, killing at least 12 people, US Coast Guard officials have said. Fourteen passengers and two crew were on the seaplane, believed to fly regularly to and from the Bahamas. The craft crashed into Miami's main shipping channel shortly before 1500 local time (2000 GMT). Scuba divers, speedboats and helicopters are combing the crash site, trying to rescue any survivors. Witnesses told local television that the airplane seemed to explode in the sky before it fell into Government Cut, the entry to the Port of Miami. "There was a huge explosion in the sky, a big ball of smoke," eyewitness Frank Amadeo told local television, Reuters reports. "It just sort of spiralled downward," he added. The propeller-driven Chalk's Ocean Airways plane, equipped with pontoons for taking off and landing on water, crashed just off the southern tip of Miami Beach. |
cnn.com has the video of the rescue.
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19 Said Killed in Plane Crash Off Miami By LAURA WIDES-MUNOZ, Associated Press Writer 12 minutes ago A propeller-driven seaplane carrying 20 people crashed off Miami Beach within sight of the city's high-rises Monday, killing at least 19 of those aboard, authorities said. Witnesses said the plane blew apart in the air, and the FBI joined in the investigation. Scuba divers and rescuers in speedboats struggled to reach the victims but found no sign of survivors as evening fell. The Chalk's Ocean Airways plane — a twin-engine Grumman G-73T Turbine Mallard — went down around 2:30 p.m. after taking off from Miami for the island of Bimini in the Bahamas, crashing in a narrow channel used by cruise ships, the Federal Aviation Administration said. The Coast Guard said 19 bodies were found. The plane was carrying two crew members and 18 passengers, including three infants, authorities said. Because of witness reports of an explosion before the plane went down, the FBI sent agents to assist in the investigation, but there was no immediate indication of terrorism or sabotage, said Judy Orihuela, spokeswoman for the FBI's Miami field office. "It's too soon to say whether we are going to get involved," Orihuela said. "We're just going to check it out." Sandy Rodriguez, 14, said he saw the plane flying low with white smoke trailing from it and flames coming from the bottom. The right wing then fell off as the plane went down behind a condominium tower on Biscayne Bay in Miami Beach, he said. "It exploded in the air and one of the wings flew out of there. The other part of the plane was on fire and it just went straight down," said Maurice D'Giovianni, 42, a surfer who was in the water at the time. Coast Guard spokesman Dana Warr also saw the crash from the Coast Guard office on Government Cut. "Everything looked normal, I saw the aircraft take off like it does every other times. I didn't think anything of it when I saw the black smoke from the pier, until I then heard the Coast Guard alarms go off," he said. The National Transportation Safety Board sent a team to investigate. The plane went down in Government Cut, a channel that cruise ships and freighters take past South Beach into the Port of Miami. The channel is up to 30 feet deep near the crash site, but parts of the plane could be seen in shallower areas. The skies were cloudy, but there was no rain or lightning in the area at the time of the crash. Coast Guardsmen and emergency workers wearing protective suits hauled bodies up from rescue boats, rushing to find victims before darkness fell. Law enforcement speedboats, divers and helicopters took part in the search and were joined by others in private boats, on personal watercraft and on surfboards. Chalk's Ocean Airways flies between Miami and the Bahamas, using planes that take off and land on the water. Chalk's aircraft have been featured in TV shows such as "Miami Vice." Its seaplanes take off in view of the port and the multimillion-dollar homes that dot islands in the bay. Founded by Arthur "Pappy" Chalk in 1919, the airline thrived during Prohibition, taking bootleggers, their customers and customs agents to Bimini. According to the airline, its most famous regular passenger was Ernest Hemingway, who flew to Bimini to go big-game fishing. One of its planes was hijacked to Cuba in 1974 and the company has since had a policy of not carrying enough fuel to get to Havana. Two years later, the airline was sold to Resorts International, which owned properties on Paradise Island. Donald Trump bought it in 1988 and sold it a few months later to Merv Griffin. The owner as of 1995 was Seth Atwood of United Capital Corporation of Illinois/Atwood Enterprises. According to its Web site, Chalk's operates 17-passenger Turbine Mallards. According to FlightSafe Consultants' Airline Safety Web site, Chalk's has had no known fatal accidents. Similarly, the NTSB database shows no fatal accidents for Chalk's since 1982, when the database started. The airline had no comment after the crash. |
There´s a pic of the aircraft just before it crashes, seem pretty badly on fire, see http://edition.cnn.com/2005/US/12/20...ash/index.html
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Christ, it looks like it was shot down, it wasn’t of course, but the early video I saw showed a wing on the breakwater and it showed definite smoke and fire damage.
How horribly sad.:sad: |
First thoughts on the Chalk Mallard accident is that those PT6 turboprops wouldn't take kindly to the maritime operating environment. Think sulfidation of turbine blades. You wouldn't need a large drink of water down an intake, just the relentless attack of salt to eventually weaken a blade or its fir-tree root. It's like rust.
I'll mount a photo of a sulfidated blade if I can find one. The only protection is to run a rinse-rack using very clean water. P-3 Orions and S-3 Vikings do that all the time at NAS rinse-racks (aka birdbaths). If a PT6 high-revving turbine wheel let go, or even just spat a blade and achieved a nasty imbalance, it could probably take the whole wing with it. That scenario accords with what's been reported thus far (smoky engine + explosion + wing separation). Sulfidation, if not addressed continually, can create real havoc with a turbine engine, particularly if it's got a reverse pitch capability to help induce and ingest the salty marine air. AFAIK all the Allison explosions were similar sudden events.... and wholly uncontained. The last one on my last squadron was anyway. |
PT6's are probably the most reliable turbine out there with a MTBF allowing Commercial IFR SE flight, please don't hijack. Don't know the frequency, but compressor washes and borescopes are mandatory. BTW there was a Beech 99 in AK that lost a blade. tore the engine off the mounts. The chances of a Grumman product losing a wing without fire or other ancillary cause is quite slim
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Sulfidation Rotting of turbine blades
http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/...36_photo_1.jpg Photo 1.
Sulfidation of number 1 GP turbine During the examination of the engine, it was installed in an approved engine test facility where a full test was attempted; however, the engine vibrated excessively and the test was aborted. Some smoke was evident during the spool down of the engine. The engine was then disassembled for inspection. Of the 38 blades on the number 1 gas producer (GP) turbine, 29 were damaged significantly. One was broken off close to its root, and most of the others were missing pieces. Examination of the remaining fracture surface of the blade that broke close to its root showed indications of a progressive failure (fatigue crack). The other fracture surfaces showed failure by overload. More detailed examination of the GP turbine blades showed extensive sulfidation corrosion1 (see Photo 1). The blade surfaces were flaking and there were fatigue cracks in many of the blades. The turbine first-stage nozzle labyrinth seal was damaged and the outer fibreglass packing was partially missing. There was soot at the joint between the turbine nozzle and number 1 GP turbine and thick, black, wet soot around the labyrinth seal and on the turbine coupling. On 10 February 2000, Rolls-Royce Allison issued a Commercial Service Letter, Hot Corrosion-Sulfidation, describing hot corrosion (sulfidation) and suggesting that operators look for it. However, no periodic maintenance inspection was directed by Transport Canada (TC) and none was implemented by the operator with regard to sulfidation corrosion. Engine compressor washing is recommended in corrosive and dirty environments. It is also prescribed when engine performance has depreciated, as noted from power assurance checks. However, there has been concern that some tap water can in itself be corrosive. Operators rarely do compressor washes when their helicopters are operating away from a salt environment. They will wash compressors when they can see dirt building up at the air intake, or when an engine is performing below specifications. It is not clear if compressor washing effectively cleans the GP turbine wheel. |
OVERTALK: You mentioned catastrophic failures of Allison engines.
A C-130B of the AFRES Squadron at Colorado Springs, CO, lost a plane and crew in the 90s. An engine lost a turbine blade, which might have sliced straight into the left wing, and into a fuel tank. There was too little time to get to a low enough altitude and airport before the wing exploded. :ugh: At least there seem to have been no passengers onboard. |
Not sure that the PT6 and sulfidation of the blades is an issue here...there are several companies, most notably Harbour Air and West Coast Air, based in the harbour in CYVR that use DHC-3t and DHC-6 products on a daily basis, and have done so for many (20+) years. The engines go through a compressor wash every day. I'm sure if they had a problem with turbine wheels letting go, then Transport Canada wouldn't be letting them fly single-engined (DHC-3t) over what amounts to open water...nor would the companies expose themselves to that kind of liability. 'Course, Chalk's might not wash evey day?
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One of the Chalks pilots told me a few months ago that the company had had a few engine failures in the last year! Adequately maintained PT6 turboprops have proved reliable in the maritime environment. Given that, and his comments, it will be interesting what final conclusions are drawn.
We don't wish these things on anyone, and yet we may wish someone else was flying.... |
Video of the plane crashing into the sea with the trailing burning wing can be seen on
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/12/20<br ...ash/index.html Look for the link to a 1:56 minute clip titled "Witnesses Recount Plane's Final Plunge". |
One would have to speculate pretty far on ones imagination, to suggest that a turbine blade failure could tear off a wing.
The historical data simply does not support it and neither does rumors nor hearsay. |
Jet engine corrosion
I flew Folland Gnats in the 60s at a seaside location in North Wales. I recall a procedure called a LIX wash whereby some anti corrosion fluid was sprayed down the engine, while it was running, about once a week. I don't recall any corrosion induced engine failures; this was the Bristol Orpheus engine.
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So they haven't found all the bodies yet and we have a probable cause. Don't know whay there is an NTSB then, just call pprune.
To add a little data. The PT-6 was originally designed as a stationary power unit for water pumping in very hot dry foreign places. In it's aviation use it is a reverse flow turbing, that is, it takes air in toward the lower rear of the engine and then the air flows foward to the first stage compressor. There is a huge amound of centrifical separation that occurs and tends to shed rocks, bolts, and other FOD before it gets into the engine. How anything but massive fire hosing of water would get through this I don't know. Please don't compare PT-6 to T-56, Orpheus, and other stuff like that. The TF-34 on the S-3 aircraft has a phenomenol reliability record and is maintained as has been previously suggested with frest water washdowns etc. In many installations (Beech King Air etc) of the PT-6 the engine oil provides the power for the prop pitch control so if the engine fails in a mode that results in oil pressure or quantity loss the prop feathers. Sympathy to the Chalk organization, pax and families. It is bad enough to get it like that, but to have lots of holiday pics on CNN of it...must be horible for the families. |
I recall that the PT-6 even with flights over the sea, from one island to another required a regular compressor wash.
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http://roger.ecn.purdue.edu/.../ jets/tprops/pt6.html
hopefully this pic works. The PT6 is equipped with inertial separators, on most a/c these are selectable either by Bowden Cable or electric actuators. these are used in icing conditions and most ground situations to avoid FOD/Ice ingestion. The actual engine inlet is annular, but is normally fed by a bottom pitot or ramp inlent. Further to the CS prop control, engine oil pressure is boosted from around 100 psi to about 750 psi and enters the prop hub thru an gland system into a single acting hub. With loss of oil pressure a spring will drive the blades to a feather position. The normal failure mode for the PT6 is due to a leak in the P3 line of of the prop governor to the FCU, the engine then falls back to min flow around 55%. good for electrics and bleed air but essentially produces no power. Thankfully the AFX system will normally feather the affected side. Several days back we had an low speed reject, due to a lose fuel line. the Captain shutdown after clearing the runway. |
One would have to speculate pretty far on ones imagination, to suggest that a turbine blade failure could tear off a wing. A DISK failure, however, is something else entirely. I've seen it cut a fuselage in two. (However, the fuselage appears intact in the CNN video) Do we know what brand props are used on the G-73T? If there is a fine-pitch failure mode (i.e. runaway), that might be a major issue. |
I've seen those Chalks flights takeoff from the sealane right from the Macarthur Causeway leading to Miami Beach many times. Almost went aboard once - ended up on a Metro gambling junket instead (30.00 US round trip to Nassau).
They are a good outfit - never lost a passenger til now, although 2 crew were lost near a cayos. Link to the beauty of flying Chalks from Miami to the Carribean: http://www.worldairroutes.com/Chalks.html This is a repost- my original was deleted . http://h1.ripway.com/eisler99/519_picture.gif |
PT6 shelling
Overtalk, I can see your point of view. I have witnessed Compressor blade failures and seizures and and Turbine blade failures. But I think everytime the Autofeather did the trick. Do these Turbine Mallards come with autofeather. Also I never heard a turbine failure resulting in uneven running and moving the engine off its mounts. They usually go "pop and stop". More than likely the reason for this would be some sort of prop failure, tip loss or blade loss. And lastly of all the PT6 failures Ive heard none of the Compressor blade, Turbine blades failures, have resulted in the engine shelling its components through the casing. I maybe wrong but never heard of it. The Casing that contains these whirling parts is extremely strong and tested. Sheep P.S. A few questions to be answered. Probably only from A&P Mechanics or LAMES that have worked on or have done the PT6 conversion. 1. Does the PT6 Mallard rebuild come with Autofeathering Props and also does it come with Fire Bottles? I am assuming for 135 ops it would be mandatory in such an aircraft? |
PT6A Engine
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Saw the video on CNN last night, I actually found it hard to watch. Poor souls never had a chance going in at that angle. May they rest in peace.
Mere curious speculation: I was thinking maybe an engine fire might have heated the wing spar to the point of failure? Didnt such a failure down a turboprop in Canada a few years back, after a landing gear fire in the gear well started from a brake dragging on T/O? |
The CNN amateur video shows the a/c going down trailed by what looks like a wing section in flames.
This could be a structural failure that ignited fuel by arcing of breaking electrical wires. |
Mere curious speculation: I was thinking maybe an engine fire might have heated the wing spar to the point of failure? Didnt such a failure down a turboprop in Canada a few years back, after a landing gear fire in the gear well started from a brake dragging on T/O? |
PaperTiger-
Thank you for the clarification-and for posting the link to the Metro incident. My suggestion though, was not that a hydraulic or landing gear issue caused this, but simply that heat from a fire could cause a structural failure of the wing. From the TSB report on the Metro incident-"The initial event in the break-up sequence was the failure of the front wing spar, caused by intense heat." Of course a fire may ignite due to an unkown number of circumstances, but an engine nacelle is one of the more susceptible locations for obvious reasons. I really need to stop speculating though....I think I'll bow out till the NTSB has had a chance to do their job. |
Regarding PT6 operations in salt water, several companies in Vancouver and Seattle have used turbo beavers, otters, and caravans for years. The standard (I believe) is a compressor wash after every flight day. There is a freshwater garden hose hookup on the PT6 for this purpose. I'm sure any seaplane operation worth its, er, salt would do same.
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unctuous thanks that was the pic I was trying to load the pt6 has 3 governors. one for the FCU, two for the prop, and one for prop runaway ie: the hydraulic overspeed governor. The N1 or FCU controls fuel flow governing N1 speed set on a rear mounted accesory pad. prop governor sets speed of prop with the FTG set at normally 106% of selected prop releases p3 bleed air which reduce fuel flow on the FCU mounted on the top of the reduction gear box primary prop gov/FTG are combined, the HOG releases prop hub oil to govern as a last ditch in Prop overspeed situations. Don't know if the Turbo Mallard has the centripetal start lock system, this allows props to start in the ground idle position.
Anyway guys we hijacked this thread long enough lets move this to a separate thread. My Heart goes out to the families. My Condolensces |
My suggestion though, was not that a hydraulic or landing gear issue caused this, but simply that heat from a fire could cause a structural failure of the wing. |
Just wondering...
Are those planes fitted with CVR / FDR ? --alexT |
I believe that it has a CVR only. Unrecovered as yet.
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(Non-reporting journo here.) In these older aircraft, is it possible within reason to retrofit them with FDR's? In my radio station, we can take any paramaters we wish from the meters into whatever state-of-art devices come on the market, with little difficulty. Are there any basic FDR's which can be hooked up this way to at least give some clues in the event of an incident?
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Just saw the video on the news here tonight and I am extremely saddened.
I have a couple thousand hours Twin Otter on floats and several thousand more on wheels and all I can say is that seeing that video on the news here tonight has been one of the most distressing I have seen and reminds me of one of the main reasons I got out of the float game. Structural failure was the biggest worry I have ever had having seen how some of the aircraft we flew were cleaned. Little wonder DHC mandated stainless control cables. I later flew the –6 Island hopping and even their we washed the bird at the end of every day. Where ever or for whatever reason….. once that wing let go it was game over. I love old planes and I love the sea but unfortunately they don’t mix, nothing will replace the Mallard, or even the Twin Otter on the few remaining niche jobs that exist and require these specialised machines. Condolences to all involved |
PaperTiger
I see your point. Now that you mention it, the C 130 wing failure in 02 comes to mind as well-although there were other issues invloved there anyway. http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id...21X00954&key=1 |
One no-go item on the Twin Otter is the PT6 Beta Back-up system which dumps the oil if the prop. spring busts so the prop. doesn't 'go into reverse'.
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