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KingAir down

Old 25th Oct 2002, 21:03
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KingAir down

NTSB LAUNCHES GO TEAM TO INVESTIGATE
CRASH OF TWIN-ENGINED AIRCRAFT IN MINNESOTA

WASHINGTON, D.C. - The National Transportation Safety Board today dispatched
a Go Team to investigate the crash of a twin-engined aircraft in Minnesota.

At 10:20 a.m. Central Daylight Time today, a Beech A100 (N41BE) -
known as a King Air - crashed several miles from the Eveleth, Minnesota
airport while on approach. There were 8 persons aboard. It has been
reported that United States Senator Paul Wellstone and members of his family
were among the passengers.
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Old 25th Oct 2002, 21:09
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Further info from the BBC news website.
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Old 25th Oct 2002, 21:39
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He was an ardent liberal politically, opposed Bush's plans for war on Iraq, and was openly critical of Israel's treatment of Palestinians.

He made a few enemies, but this crash looks innocent to me.

My condolences to the remainder of his family.
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Old 25th Oct 2002, 21:55
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Poor weather, light snow, not impossible but makes for difficulties if under pressure and anything else goes wrong.

I shouldn't really comment but the CNBC gave out the report just as I logged on.
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Old 25th Oct 2002, 22:10
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This is the second Democratic senatorial candidate to be killed in a small aircraft crash just before an election (previous was Carnahan (spelling?) just before the 2000 election). For those who deal with such statistics, this would certainly seem an oddity.
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Old 25th Oct 2002, 22:17
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For more info.

Goto...

story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=578&e=1&cid=578&u=/nm/20021025/ts_nm/crash_wellstone_dc


The other guy to suffer a similar fate was the a Senator in Missouri whose wife took over his position.

andy
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Old 25th Oct 2002, 23:59
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Question Grew up with Super and Kingairs

I remember a B200 driver looking at a 100 in the hangar. We never operated them, and cursing the whole damn concept.
Can someone put my mind at rest, as I can never remember. Was it a 200 body on 90 wings and engines, as my fuddled memory recalls. Or the othe way around, 90 body on 200 wings and donkeys. I put it in very crude terms, so plse forgive me.
Any loss is a sad loss.

Bored
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Old 26th Oct 2002, 03:27
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A sad situation indeed. The press from here across the pond is covering this heavily. The Senator was a well liked member of the Democratic party.....

Having flown the aircraft involved in the accident (BE A100) I can give a very good guess as to what happened. It seems to me with the conditions being poor weather and icing involed there was a good set up for a classic"Tail" stall situation. The stab on the BE 10 is low (unlike its BE20 cousin). The King Airs perfom well in moderate levels of ice but great care must be taken when getting into the approach phase. Flap selections (especially below the approach setting) must be made with great dilligence. Boots must be working well. Any disruption of airflow (AOA changes etc) over the tail in icing conditions can lead to disaster very quickly. The proper procedure for recovery of a tail stall is check back and reduce power. Something we are not taught in flight school. If this was the case the crew would have only seconds to react successfully. Only my theory of course.


Boredcounter: The BE10 is a BE20 fuselage with a BE99 wing. Low wing, low tail, PT6-28 engines. A great airplane as I have fond memories of it. I liked the BE20 better but the 10 is a great A/C in its own respect.


Sorry to hear it happened.
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Old 26th Oct 2002, 07:10
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Factors

The METARs at the time show a degredation of conditions throughout the day and notably between 1434z and 1454z. The Auto at KEVM is updated every 20 minutes. IMC conditions, and altimeter settings dropping (though in a fairly linear fashion).

The Be10, from what little I've read, was fairly new. -1998 from MSNBC's account-. What kind of terrain is around KEVM? From 1515Z to 1534Z the ceiling drops from sct 0004 to ovc 0004. Though I've not heard any decent times of the accident occurance. The temp and dew point are overly friendly. So there is a lot of met going on.

If there was an over-reliance on the radar altemetry, it has a lot of the ingredients for a CFIT.

Last edited by DeskDriver; 26th Oct 2002 at 08:17.
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Old 27th Oct 2002, 09:16
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aviationpolicy.org http://www.aviationpolicy.org has posted a fair amount of info on this crash More will become available as it, well, becomes available...
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Old 27th Oct 2002, 19:26
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KingAir loss

Another sad loss.
We don't know the cause of this crash yet but on examining the VOR approach chart one has to wander why these charts are constructed with such low altitudes and resuling shallow flight path angles.
If the angle had been 3 degrees all the way from the 10nm "Walls" WP, the aircraft altitude at that point would be 4600 ft and not 3300 ft. The FAF (5nm) alt would be 3000 ft not 2900 ft.
Could this have made a difference ?? Maybe.
With a ground speed of 100 Kts, the rate of descent from "Walls" (4600 ft) to the 50 ft threshold crossing height would be 530 fpm, quite comfortable.

When are the chart drawing people going to wake up ?? How many more CFIT accidents do they want ?? There are far too many shallow approaches in existance out there. Time to do something about it !!!

Thermostat.
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Old 29th Oct 2002, 15:01
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CNN has reported, in part:


quote: Radar data showed that the plane was traveling just 85 knots (98 mph) at the time of the crash. Hilldrup would not speculate on whether the plane might have stalled at that speed, but he said investigators would be looking at the possibility. unquote

Seems to me to be fairly slow. Can anybody advise approach speeds for this airplane? Flaps and gear down, what is stall speed?

Thanks.
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Old 29th Oct 2002, 15:07
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Radar shows Ground Speed. Wind has not been reported.
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Old 29th Oct 2002, 15:59
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Esperto

Obviously you have not read much about the incident. Allow me to enlighten you. I am assuming you can read WX.

2002/10/25 15:14
KEVM 251514Z AUTO 00000KT 3SM -SN SCT004 OVC007 01/00 A3006 RMK
AO2

Now, do you know anything about speeds for this airplane?
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Old 29th Oct 2002, 20:00
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When are the chart drawing people going to wake up ?? How many more CFIT accidents do they want ?? There are far too many shallow approaches in existance out there. Time to do something about it !!!
I am directly involved with the production of approach charts/plates at the originator level (i.e. not Jeppesen/Aerad etc.). We always include a table of advisory altitudes based on a TCH of 50ft and a 5% descent gradient throughout the approach.
However, there are operators who prefer to get down to their minimums as early as possible, and creep in on the wrong side of the drag curve.

The "solution" could be to remove reference to all minimum altitudes at the IF and FAF, replace them with the advisory altitudes and just publish the final OCA/OCH. This would encourage stabilised approaches, but I'm sure some operators would still grumble....
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Old 29th Oct 2002, 20:21
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TWA ops required a stabilized approach @500', including a rate of descent of 500'/min OR LESS. If 500'/min is exceeded, abandon the approach.

5 degrees is a bit too steep for comfort IMO. I prefer a flatter approach, 3 or 4 degrees.
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Old 29th Oct 2002, 21:49
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5% descent gradient
= 2.9 degrees
not 5 degrees!!
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Old 30th Oct 2002, 20:11
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Question Shallow flight path angles on a non-prec?

Hello out there: I can't figure out how a non-precision approach (which requires a bit of planning with often very little time to do it), incorporates a shallow flight path, except when level, either up to the FAF, or way down below at the MDA. One technique I try to use is to request a switch to tower freq whwn several miles from the FAF-this can easily reduce the critical workload at the FAF (landing checklist, timing, reseting the altitude warning knob, using tail de-ice while the flying pilot tries to figure how much power [N1 @ 55%?] and wondering, did he say reported "fair braking action" on the short runway?), while starting a steep descent through clouds or fog towards the MDA, which may be only about 400 feet above the rocks in the dark 'firmament'.

My airlines's profile for any non-prec. aproach in a certain fleet is to be fully configured about three miles before the Final Approach Fix (FAF). It then says to descend our jets at 1200-1500 feet per minute until at 1,000 AGL, then our descent rate must no more 1,000 fpm until a bit above the MDA. Where is the shallow angle? If done wrong, you could easily get killed, or you might end going missed approach, because many missed approach points (MAPs)leave you way too high for a normal (600-800 fpm) descent to the touchdown zone (TDZ) . The FAA re-charted (their OWN) VOR 15 approach into Hartford, CN, after an MD-83 crew ran into trees on a hill, below the MDA. The FAA discovered that their approach design was not so good. The MD-83 crew also had the wrong altimeter setting, and due to the very strong winds, the tower controllers had evacuated the control tower at the tim, unable to give them an update. I don't want to blame that crew (I was never good enough to feel self-righteous regarding others' mistakes), and don't understand all of the circumstances involved. The jet's crew and passengers were very lucky to have survived.

When I trained on the 757 using the VS mode, the company required many more non-prec versus ILS approaches in the sim, because of the numerous hazards when using VS...

I'm always wondering how many Pprune contributors have no cross-country IFR experience, despite the appearance of such.

Last edited by Ignition Override; 3rd Nov 2002 at 05:26.
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Old 31st Oct 2002, 02:30
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because many missed approach points (MAPs)leave you way too high for a normal (600-800 fpm) descent to the touchdown zone (TDZ)
Ummm, isn't the reason you are at the MAP because you have already decided you are NOT going to land?
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Old 31st Oct 2002, 17:14
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Amazing How Quickly it Can All turn To Worms

http://www.atsb.gov.au/aviation/occu...ail.cfm?ID=412
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