CL604 West coast US to Europe
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CL604 West coast US to Europe
After asking a management company to help me evaluate a CL604 for our flying habits, I ask them specifically about our trips to Europe.
A couple times a year we go from PHX to NCE with a stop ideally NYC or BOS.
The management company asked their other CL604 crew whom said that the aircraft would almost never make it back without 2 stops - They gave it 10% success....And east bound MAYBE via goose bay...
My feeling is that they don't know what they are talking about.
Can you please help me understand if indeed the CL604 could make the trip with 1 stop both direction?
A couple times a year we go from PHX to NCE with a stop ideally NYC or BOS.
The management company asked their other CL604 crew whom said that the aircraft would almost never make it back without 2 stops - They gave it 10% success....And east bound MAYBE via goose bay...
My feeling is that they don't know what they are talking about.
Can you please help me understand if indeed the CL604 could make the trip with 1 stop both direction?
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It's no problem in headwinds up to around 50 knots, which is most of the time! Eastbound an easy one. Westbound you won't be going via BOS or TEB if you want one stop, but via Goose no problem. Ran it for 40 knot headwind and it needs around 18000lbs including reserves NCE - CYYR which leaves plenty of payload. Realistic fuel capacity around 19500, and if you have a full cabin and lots of luggage you could be down to 18500. Similar for the second leg. It's a long day, though!
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Hi there.
It sounds like a tough one. At least Westbound.
Eastbound, I would go for a a KPHX-KBGR-LFMN, or via Goose CYYR and on the Westbound Route maybe LFMN-CYFB-KPHX
According my experience, this should be pretty doable 90% of the times.
Make yourself prepared to do it on M.77 or M.78 and concerning the Fuel, never run a flight plan with more then 19500lbs. Everything on top of this is for our own good feeling.
Best thing, have a few flight plans run with historic winds for this specific period of the year you want to fly.
Lately the winds over the Atlantic havent been so favorable going Eastbound but at least they havent been so bad going Westbound as well.
Done a EDDL-CYFB-KSFO and back in a 605 few years back.
It sounds like a tough one. At least Westbound.
Eastbound, I would go for a a KPHX-KBGR-LFMN, or via Goose CYYR and on the Westbound Route maybe LFMN-CYFB-KPHX
According my experience, this should be pretty doable 90% of the times.
Make yourself prepared to do it on M.77 or M.78 and concerning the Fuel, never run a flight plan with more then 19500lbs. Everything on top of this is for our own good feeling.
Best thing, have a few flight plans run with historic winds for this specific period of the year you want to fly.
Lately the winds over the Atlantic havent been so favorable going Eastbound but at least they havent been so bad going Westbound as well.
Done a EDDL-CYFB-KSFO and back in a 605 few years back.
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Thank you guys.
I am having a few different people run the flight plans.
But I don't understand how the management company dispatch and other CL604 captain ran (from the same management company) said 90% of the time you won't make it back with one stop.
Is it very conservative SOPs?
Is there another motivation behind telling me this?
I am having a few different people run the flight plans.
But I don't understand how the management company dispatch and other CL604 captain ran (from the same management company) said 90% of the time you won't make it back with one stop.
Is it very conservative SOPs?
Is there another motivation behind telling me this?
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sl55
As always in life. 100 people, 1000 different opinions.
It always depends on the daily weather/wind conditions. 1 day you can make it easily, next day you struggle.
As I said, get your routes together and have a professional service run the flight plans for you with historic winds.
When it comes to flying with reduced speeds, I personally prefer M.77 or M.78 or even M.76 over LRC.
I am pretty sure that my guess in my previous post pretty much matches what can be done. And never forget, when you go over the pond, there is a lot of airports on your route on both sides. So if it doesnt work out what you have planned, go and land somewhere else. Doesnt realy work in northern Canada but it is always an option.
As a rough planning tool you can use the "great circle mapper".
Just my 5 cents.
By the way, we are doing LSZH-KTEB at least once a month at the moment in a Challi650. Westbound with a fuel stop in EINN and Eastbound Non-stop with M.80.
If ATC wouldnt make us descent already before BOS, I am pretty sure LSZH-KTEB would be doable with M.77 without a fuel stop, as I said 90% of the time. Still landing with an easy going 2000lbs remaining.
As always in life. 100 people, 1000 different opinions.
It always depends on the daily weather/wind conditions. 1 day you can make it easily, next day you struggle.
As I said, get your routes together and have a professional service run the flight plans for you with historic winds.
When it comes to flying with reduced speeds, I personally prefer M.77 or M.78 or even M.76 over LRC.
I am pretty sure that my guess in my previous post pretty much matches what can be done. And never forget, when you go over the pond, there is a lot of airports on your route on both sides. So if it doesnt work out what you have planned, go and land somewhere else. Doesnt realy work in northern Canada but it is always an option.
As a rough planning tool you can use the "great circle mapper".
Just my 5 cents.
By the way, we are doing LSZH-KTEB at least once a month at the moment in a Challi650. Westbound with a fuel stop in EINN and Eastbound Non-stop with M.80.
If ATC wouldnt make us descent already before BOS, I am pretty sure LSZH-KTEB would be doable with M.77 without a fuel stop, as I said 90% of the time. Still landing with an easy going 2000lbs remaining.
Thats very interesting. If you request LRC 0.75, in fact anything "non standard" under 0.8, good luck. We always did 0.8 as you are unlikely to get an efficient flight level on the track system with those slower speeds. I don't have access to the data or flight planning system anymore but on a Chally at, or anything below FL320 you'll be in fuel deficit at that M 0.75. 77 or 78, thats an even worse comprimise. Range is a combination factor of Flight level, ISA deviation (although thats a relatively minor factor in the big scheme of things, 1 kt TAS per 1 deg c), plus wind and of course weight. Transatlantic, in my experience from UK westbound in a Chally (certainly 604 onwards) is very "do-able" 98% of the time, as far as New York anyway, even a 601-3R without the "saddle bag" tanks ( minus 1800lb/ 800 kg of extra fuel to play with) can get to Bangor Maine, but if the average wind component is over 50 knots HW and/or you get allocated a low FL in the "lottery" then forget it in any Challenger. From Nice to Pheonix a two stop (probably Shannon and one of the eastern Canadian pitstops) will be required
Last edited by Private jet; 2nd May 2021 at 23:14. Reason: typo's and an add
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NAT on LRC is not allowed. You need to do a fixed Mach Number.
I did not say anything about M.75
So far all our flights and we did quiet a few over the Atlantic happend on M.80, M.78
Also, you dont have to fly the Tracks. It looks anyway that the regulated Track System is about to dissapear and only random routes will be flown in the future.
As I already said twice. You need to have the route run with the winds. then you will see.
I did not say anything about M.75
So far all our flights and we did quiet a few over the Atlantic happend on M.80, M.78
Also, you dont have to fly the Tracks. It looks anyway that the regulated Track System is about to dissapear and only random routes will be flown in the future.
As I already said twice. You need to have the route run with the winds. then you will see.
NAT on LRC is not allowed. You need to do a fixed Mach Number.
I did not say anything about M.75
So far all our flights and we did quiet a few over the Atlantic happend on M.80, M.78
Also, you dont have to fly the Tracks. It looks anyway that the regulated Track System is about to dissapear and only random routes will be flown in the future.
As I already said twice. You need to have the route run with the winds. then you will see.
I did not say anything about M.75
So far all our flights and we did quiet a few over the Atlantic happend on M.80, M.78
Also, you dont have to fly the Tracks. It looks anyway that the regulated Track System is about to dissapear and only random routes will be flown in the future.
As I already said twice. You need to have the route run with the winds. then you will see.
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I can’t think of any normal scenario the 604 would need 2 stops between Nice and US west coast. In early 2000s I operated a CL 604 many times between US West coast (KOAK specifically), to Nice and never had to make more than 1 stop either way. We wouldn’t fly NAT....went random route. CYFB is midway on great circle and a typical tech stop but there are plenty of other good options.
Last time I looked CL 604 has a 3700nm range?
Maybe your advisor was thinking CL 601 when he said 2 stops westbound would be needed? Even then a 601 would be able to do it with 1 stop westbound.
Last time I looked CL 604 has a 3700nm range?
Maybe your advisor was thinking CL 601 when he said 2 stops westbound would be needed? Even then a 601 would be able to do it with 1 stop westbound.
LFMN-CYFB is 2754 great circle distance, adding 5% to get a "realistic" flightplan distance it's 2891nm. With a cruise at M0.8/460TAS and a 40 kt "typical" headwind component westbound across the Atlantic (although it can be more), plus a time to climb allowance, the sector is about 7hr 15 min airborne. With a burn of 2100pph (assuming you get FL390) and a 5% contingency the trip burn is around 16000 lbs. No problems, 604's hold 20000lbs (if you're lucky). But, what if you can't land at Frobisher, where do you go? Churchill Falls? Goose Bay? Thats another 630 nm/1 hr 30 mins, you'll be down to minimum reserve, or possibly into it, when you get there. Not a nice situation to be in. Is there somewhere closer? I can't imagine the fuel at Frobay is cheaper than other places haha.
When we went to the west coast (LAX/Palm Springs/Vegas) we went via Goose Bay, the GC distance is only about a 100 more in total, but the alternate Sept Iles is a lot closer, about 45 mins, (and Gander is under an hour too)
Having said all that, yes a one stop is certainly possible, and diversion is highly unlikely, but as before, if you get stuck at a low flight level the numbers don't add up. If you can go at 0.74 great, but its pointless unless you can do it at a decent flight level in the oceanic zone. Also, of course you'll only be doing it with a limited payload, maybe 4 or 5 pax + attendant and bags, but on the long trips you don't want a "full house" anyway haha
Anyway, the OP wants to go via Boston or New York area anyway not Canada, so nonstop from Nice is very marginal for all the obvious reasons.
When we went to the west coast (LAX/Palm Springs/Vegas) we went via Goose Bay, the GC distance is only about a 100 more in total, but the alternate Sept Iles is a lot closer, about 45 mins, (and Gander is under an hour too)
Having said all that, yes a one stop is certainly possible, and diversion is highly unlikely, but as before, if you get stuck at a low flight level the numbers don't add up. If you can go at 0.74 great, but its pointless unless you can do it at a decent flight level in the oceanic zone. Also, of course you'll only be doing it with a limited payload, maybe 4 or 5 pax + attendant and bags, but on the long trips you don't want a "full house" anyway haha
Anyway, the OP wants to go via Boston or New York area anyway not Canada, so nonstop from Nice is very marginal for all the obvious reasons.
Last edited by Private jet; 13th Sep 2021 at 14:23.
