Dale Earnhardt, Jr, Cessna Citation C680 Latitude Crash
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,898
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
NTSB Senior Investigator Ralph Hicks just finished a media briefing at the accident site. His crew will be at the scene two to three days collecting perishable evidence. A preliminary report will be issued in about a week. The wreckage will be moved to Griffin, Georgia (possibly by Atlanta Air Recovery - Welcome!) for further analysis.
He said the plane was arriving at the non-tower controlled airport after a short 20 minute flight from North Carolina. Weather was good, wind calm.
Surveillance video showed that the plane touched down somewhere near the threshold, bounced twice and the right main gear collapsed. The initial landing was described as firm by the pilots and pax interviews were consistent with the video evidence.
There is a CVR which will be sent to the lab in DC. No FDR but non-volatile avionics data will give insight to the final flight path.
He said the plane was arriving at the non-tower controlled airport after a short 20 minute flight from North Carolina. Weather was good, wind calm.
Surveillance video showed that the plane touched down somewhere near the threshold, bounced twice and the right main gear collapsed. The initial landing was described as firm by the pilots and pax interviews were consistent with the video evidence.
There is a CVR which will be sent to the lab in DC. No FDR but non-volatile avionics data will give insight to the final flight path.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: schermoney and left front seat
Age: 57
Posts: 2,438
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LDR without factoring C680A from the FPG
2000ft elevation / 0 Wind
MLM 27000 26000 25000 24000 22000 20000 19000lbs
35° C/ 95°F 2,740 2,700 2,630 2,570 2,500 2,350 2,200 2,120 ft
4100/1,67 = 2456 ft - > so anything below 23000lbs ish would be okay even if 135
I have just one landing in the Latitude, but about 2000 in the Sovereign who shares the same gear. The Sovereigns numbers are about 200ft LONGER than that of the Latitude, even at the MLM which is 475 lower in the Sov. The longer wings of the Latitude bring the Vref down a little (2-3 knots) and the aircraft has tremendous stopping power. We are homebased at a 3323ft LDA runway and we never had any issue regarding stopping - even at high weights.
That said, I thought the Latitude floats a tad more than the Sov on flare.
If there is a jet that is not a jet in this respect, its the C680 family. (although the Legacy 450/500 and the Challenger 300 don´t use a lot of runway...)
I sometimes fly a CJ3 into our homebase - it uses way more runway...
2000ft elevation / 0 Wind
MLM 27000 26000 25000 24000 22000 20000 19000lbs
35° C/ 95°F 2,740 2,700 2,630 2,570 2,500 2,350 2,200 2,120 ft
4100/1,67 = 2456 ft - > so anything below 23000lbs ish would be okay even if 135
I have just one landing in the Latitude, but about 2000 in the Sovereign who shares the same gear. The Sovereigns numbers are about 200ft LONGER than that of the Latitude, even at the MLM which is 475 lower in the Sov. The longer wings of the Latitude bring the Vref down a little (2-3 knots) and the aircraft has tremendous stopping power. We are homebased at a 3323ft LDA runway and we never had any issue regarding stopping - even at high weights.
That said, I thought the Latitude floats a tad more than the Sov on flare.
If there is a jet that is not a jet in this respect, its the C680 family. (although the Legacy 450/500 and the Challenger 300 don´t use a lot of runway...)
I sometimes fly a CJ3 into our homebase - it uses way more runway...
Last edited by His dudeness; 16th Aug 2019 at 19:26.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,898
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
A link to today's NTSB briefing: https://www.pscp.tv/w/1dRKZmYPydVxB
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,898
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
The Latitude has 9 pax seats, FDR's are required with 10 or more seats under § 91.609(c)(1) so it's indeed not required.
§ 91.609(c)
(1) No person may operate a U.S. civil registered, multiengine, turbine-powered airplane or rotorcraft having a passenger seating configuration, excluding any pilot seats of 10 or more that has been manufactured after October 11, 1991, unless it is equipped with one or more approved flight recorders that utilize a digital method of recording and storing data and a method of readily retrieving that data from the storage medium, that are capable of recording the data specified in appendix E to this part, for an airplane, or appendix F to this part, for a rotorcraft, of this part within the range, accuracy, and recording interval specified, and that are capable of retaining no less than 8 hours of aircraft operation.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.609
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: schermoney and left front seat
Age: 57
Posts: 2,438
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LDR without factoring C680A from the FPG
2000ft elevation / 0 Wind
MLM 27000 26000 25000 24000 22000 20000 19000lbs
35° C/ 95°F 2,740 2,700 2,630 2,570 2,500 2,350 2,200 2,120 ft
4100/1,67 = 2456 ft - > so anything below 23000lbs ish would be okay even if 135
I have just on e landing with the Latitude, but about 2000 in t he Sovereign who shares the same gear. The Sovereigns numbers are about 200ft LONGER than that of the Latitude, even at the MLM which is 475 lower in the Sov. The longer wings of the Latitude bring the Vref down a little (2-3 knots) and the aircraft has tremendous stopping power. We are homebased at a 3323ft LDA runway and we never had any issue regarding stopping - even at high weights.
If there is a jet that is not a jet in this respect, its the C680 family. I sometimes fly a CJ3 into our homebase - it uses way more runway...
2000ft elevation / 0 Wind
MLM 27000 26000 25000 24000 22000 20000 19000lbs
35° C/ 95°F 2,740 2,700 2,630 2,570 2,500 2,350 2,200 2,120 ft
4100/1,67 = 2456 ft - > so anything below 23000lbs ish would be okay even if 135
I have just on e landing with the Latitude, but about 2000 in t he Sovereign who shares the same gear. The Sovereigns numbers are about 200ft LONGER than that of the Latitude, even at the MLM which is 475 lower in the Sov. The longer wings of the Latitude bring the Vref down a little (2-3 knots) and the aircraft has tremendous stopping power. We are homebased at a 3323ft LDA runway and we never had any issue regarding stopping - even at high weights.
If there is a jet that is not a jet in this respect, its the C680 family. I sometimes fly a CJ3 into our homebase - it uses way more runway...
One small correction, though: The FAR landing field length (factored) is a dispatch requirement and is typically not as limiting as actual conditions times 1.67. There is a specific supplement for it and it typically works out to about 1.5 times actual distance. This is because (I was told at FSI) Cessna used a slightly steeper approach and a firmer touchdown to come up with the raw landing distance for these numbers (which are not published unfactored) then applied a 1.67 factor but the total number is typically less than 1.67 times the published unfactored numbers. On other Citations this method and the respective AFM supplements was/were called parametric landing data. All this to say: Even more than 23000 pounds would have been ok under part 135. And certainly under part 91/91k there would have been no limit other than the structural MLW.
A redneck worshiped by millions of NASCAR crazies with MAGA hats!😎
Perhaps intimidated his pilots to take this brand new high performance jet into an airport (0A9) that is barely OK for a small prop aircraft.
(1600’ altitude and about 4500’ long runway, surrounded by high terrain.)
Not sure if he owned this jet or chartered?
Either way, a lot of low time inexperienced 135/91 pilots are intimidated to fly into these small airports because it is convenient for the owner or renter!
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: schermoney and left front seat
Age: 57
Posts: 2,438
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For 200ft Elevation
Latitude 2,740 2,700 2,630 2,570 2,500 2,350 2,200 2,120 ft
Sovereign+ 2,860 2,820 2,750 2,680 2,610 2,530 2,450 2,290 ft
Sovereign 2,920 2,840 2,770 2,690 2,620 2,540 2,450 2,370
Vrefs on the + are 1 Knot higher than the Latitudes.
But all that is just academic I think, the question seems to be: why the bounce to a gear failure. The Sovereign is easy to fly IMHO, but: it runs out of elevator control close to Vref. Can´t say if that is the same with the Latitude.
Last edited by His dudeness; 16th Aug 2019 at 22:36.
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Paisley, Florida USA
Posts: 289
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cheers,
Grog
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Surrounded by aluminum, and the great outdoors
Posts: 3,780
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A redneck worshiped by millions of NASCAR crazies with MAGA hats!😎
Perhaps intimidated his pilots to take this brand new high performance jet into an airport (0A9) that is barely OK for a small prop aircraft.
(1600’ altitude and about 4500’ long runway, with a displaced threshold, surrounded by high terrain.)
Not sure if he owned this jet or chartered?
Either way, a lot of low time inexperienced 135/91 pilots are intimidated to fly into these small airports because it is convenient for the owner or renter!
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Dallas
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A redneck worshiped by millions of NASCAR crazies with MAGA hats!��
Perhaps intimidated his pilots to take this brand new high performance jet into an airport (0A9) that is barely OK for a small prop aircraft.
(1600’ altitude and about 4500’ long runway, with a displaced threshold, surrounded by high terrain.)
Not sure if he owned this jet or chartered?
Either way, a lot of low time inexperienced 135/91 pilots are intimidated to fly into these small airports because it is convenient for the owner or renter!
Are you actually a pilot? A 4,500' runway is more than adequate for a Latitude and all midsize business jets at 1,600' elevation, the DA at the accident time, and landing weight a 20 minute flight with three pax and a dog implies.. A "small prop aircraft" uses less than 1,500' of runway including 50' obstacle clearance in virtually all conditions.
The "brand new high performance jet" was four years old, and it's performance is not much more or less than all jets in its class.
Earnhardt's JR Motorsports flight department is affiliated with Hendrick Motorsports flight ops, and their fleet includes a GV, (2) ERJ 145s, and a Bell 430. Its professional standards are second to none.
The reasons for the hard landing and overrun will be like all such incidents, a combination of events that conspired to cause the mishap. One of them will not be "low time inexperienced pilots". How, exactly, are you privy to information that "a lot" of such pilots exist in 135/91 flight ops?
Last edited by ThreeThreeMike; 17th Aug 2019 at 03:47.
The reasons for the hard landing and overrun will be like all such incidents, a combination of events that conspired to cause the mishap. One of them will not be "low time inexperienced pilots". How, exactly, are you privy to information that "a lot" of such pilots exist in 135/91 flight ops?
Last edited by atakacs; 17th Aug 2019 at 13:38.
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Stick to 787’s please
A redneck worshiped by millions of NASCAR crazies with MAGA hats!😎
Perhaps intimidated his pilots to take this brand new high performance jet into an airport (0A9) that is barely OK for a small prop aircraft.
(1600’ altitude and about 4500’ long runway, with a displaced threshold, surrounded by high terrain.)
Not sure if he owned this jet or chartered?
Either way, a lot of low time inexperienced 135/91 pilots are intimidated to fly into these small airports because it is convenient for the owner or renter!
no access to the "pro" version but what kind of reading do we have for previous landings (maybe not that aircraft but I'm sure other c680 have landed here)?
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: TN
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I hope the CCTV shows how far down the runway they were when the airplane stopped bouncing. This appears to be a really f..ked-up landing in a really nice, capable airplane on a dry runway in pretty decent VFR. And for all we know this crew and airplane may have landed at this airport before for other races. **** happens.
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Prescott, AZ
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
733 driver - you're putting too much effort into the analysis. Who cares which runway. The wind was calm (no good) it's a marginally long enough runway and every semi-smart corporate driver knows exactly what happened. They pranged it.