Getting back to Flying
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Germany
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Getting back to Flying
- I completed my flight training in 2008 right in the middle of the great reccesion.I took time out from aviation i am looking at getting back to flying i am based in germany i am interested in business aviation and I have been looking at job adverts in Germany which all require a type rating.I am looking at self sponsoring CE525 type rating my question is this the right time to get back to flying?
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Europe
Posts: 280
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Out of passion - then it is always the right time. However, the pilot "job" is getting worse and worse, very few exceptions still do exist.
I remember the time around 2008, bad time for aviation. Somehow you missed the "good" time after that downturn, I think we might be steering into the next recession now. Just look at all the airlines that went bust this year, some are struggling, others stopped recruiting(e.g.Ryanair, and THAT really means something, even if it only affects DEC's at the moment). Conditions getting worse, especially in GA with small jets.
What I want to say - just do it if you really think aviation is something that you REALLY need in your life. The first few years will be a hard and stony, very bad paid period for you. In the meantime you will need to develop your "networking" skills as that is most likely the #1 talent required in GA(have been there for a few years, ownerjob and commercial operator, both often a snakepit with tons of false "friends").
This all said not to de-motivate you but to give you a fair picture of the market.
I remember the time around 2008, bad time for aviation. Somehow you missed the "good" time after that downturn, I think we might be steering into the next recession now. Just look at all the airlines that went bust this year, some are struggling, others stopped recruiting(e.g.Ryanair, and THAT really means something, even if it only affects DEC's at the moment). Conditions getting worse, especially in GA with small jets.
What I want to say - just do it if you really think aviation is something that you REALLY need in your life. The first few years will be a hard and stony, very bad paid period for you. In the meantime you will need to develop your "networking" skills as that is most likely the #1 talent required in GA(have been there for a few years, ownerjob and commercial operator, both often a snakepit with tons of false "friends").
This all said not to de-motivate you but to give you a fair picture of the market.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Germany
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thank you for the replies.I have done a fair bit of research and found that the salaries at least here in Germany could be considered mini job salaries,having said that i am in a position together with my missus to persevere for the initial few years.i have started networking quite a bit as well.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: london
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
hey Shorts Eater. Maybe you could give the original poster a list of companies that will type rate someone for their first job. Is it a long list? Or are you living in the past?
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: schermoney and left front seat
Age: 57
Posts: 2,438
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
hey Shorts Eater. Maybe you could give the original poster a list of companies that will type rate someone for their first job. Is it a long list? Or are you living in the past?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Germany
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thank you all for the info and insights indeed i am living off the missus any one care to point me the right direction on companies that employ pilots with having to pay for a type rating?
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Near Stuttgart, Germany
Posts: 1,096
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Hello!
Let's be realistic here. In order to get your type rating sponsored in business aviation with zero experience, you either need to be best buddies with some aircraft owner or chief pilot or otherwise be very very lucky.
There still are some companies who will not ask you to pay for your rating up front and "bond" you instead. AFAIK DC Aviation is one of those and they are presently recruiting a first officer for an XLS+ You might want to try your luck by filling out their online application form!
Otherwise there are quite a few airlines in central Europe looking for pilots who will not make you pay for your rating. Eurowings, WDL, LGW, ... Or maybe Sun Air in Denkmark to which a couple of colleagues went some time ago.
Good luck!
There still are some companies who will not ask you to pay for your rating up front and "bond" you instead. AFAIK DC Aviation is one of those and they are presently recruiting a first officer for an XLS+ You might want to try your luck by filling out their online application form!
Otherwise there are quite a few airlines in central Europe looking for pilots who will not make you pay for your rating. Eurowings, WDL, LGW, ... Or maybe Sun Air in Denkmark to which a couple of colleagues went some time ago.
Good luck!
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: FL450
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think the issue here is the immediate resignation to paying for TR? ie. planning to do that.
Only 5 years ago it was unheard of in GA yet here we are discussing the merits of it. To me it is an absolute last resort only!
I paid (ie. had it deducted from my salary for 2 years) for one rating in my career. (Airline) It was a massive mistake. You become labelled as gullible, desperate. Then they take advantage of that.
Hold out. Hold out for that employer that actually wants you and values you. There is no better time than now.
I am a firm believer in Karma. I once held out for a rating situation that was so unjust. In the end I had to say no. I then regretted it for 6 months until seeing the owner imprisoned, all crew sacked and aircraft impounded. It help with my sleep patterns after that.
Only 5 years ago it was unheard of in GA yet here we are discussing the merits of it. To me it is an absolute last resort only!
I paid (ie. had it deducted from my salary for 2 years) for one rating in my career. (Airline) It was a massive mistake. You become labelled as gullible, desperate. Then they take advantage of that.
Hold out. Hold out for that employer that actually wants you and values you. There is no better time than now.
I am a firm believer in Karma. I once held out for a rating situation that was so unjust. In the end I had to say no. I then regretted it for 6 months until seeing the owner imprisoned, all crew sacked and aircraft impounded. It help with my sleep patterns after that.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Near Stuttgart, Germany
Posts: 1,096
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Hello!
5 years? We have been discussing that topic on this very forum for over 20 years now... It may be different in different parts of the world though.
This is how our national flag carrier (Lufthansa) has always been doing it and no one has had any objections with that. Ever. Today, in 2019, joining a business aviation outfit with zero experience and being more than 10 years out of training (like our original poster), a deal like that you describe is the absolute best he can get. Like it or not.
Of course he can one day proudly tell his grandchildren: "Kids, I tell you one thing: Your grandfather never paid for a typerating (or accepted a lower salary because he joined without a rating) - you really should be proud of him!". But then, for honesty's sake, he should also add a second sentence: "And kids, one more thing: Your grandfather was the best french-fries-frier they ever had at McDondals. With more than 50 years of experience and never distracted from the job by having to go flying". Sorry to put it so bluntly but this is how it is.
Of course he can one day proudly tell his grandchildren: "Kids, I tell you one thing: Your grandfather never paid for a typerating (or accepted a lower salary because he joined without a rating) - you really should be proud of him!". But then, for honesty's sake, he should also add a second sentence: "And kids, one more thing: Your grandfather was the best french-fries-frier they ever had at McDondals. With more than 50 years of experience and never distracted from the job by having to go flying". Sorry to put it so bluntly but this is how it is.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Germany
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thank you very much Kelly Hopperand WhatNext for your sober contributions and fair insight,at the moment i believe i am in the last chance saloon due to few factors age being one of them .I might sound crazy but my preference is General aviation i am not saying that if an airline job popup i would turn it down.I applied to all operators in Germany big and small piper outfits and all of them hinted to me that they like my profile however i am not rated on the aircraft's that they operate which led me to a decision that i just might have to bite the bullet.I decided to post on PPRUNE to see if i can get some constructive views.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Europe
Posts: 280
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think the issue here is the immediate resignation to paying for TR? ie. planning to do that.
Only 5 years ago it was unheard of in GA yet here we are discussing the merits of it. To me it is an absolute last resort only!
I paid (ie. had it deducted from my salary for 2 years) for one rating in my career. (Airline) It was a massive mistake. You become labelled as gullible, desperate. Then they take advantage of that.
Hold out. Hold out for that employer that actually wants you and values you. There is no better time than now.
I am a firm believer in Karma. I once held out for a rating situation that was so unjust. In the end I had to say no. I then regretted it for 6 months until seeing the owner imprisoned, all crew sacked and aircraft impounded. It help with my sleep patterns after that.
Only 5 years ago it was unheard of in GA yet here we are discussing the merits of it. To me it is an absolute last resort only!
I paid (ie. had it deducted from my salary for 2 years) for one rating in my career. (Airline) It was a massive mistake. You become labelled as gullible, desperate. Then they take advantage of that.
Hold out. Hold out for that employer that actually wants you and values you. There is no better time than now.
I am a firm believer in Karma. I once held out for a rating situation that was so unjust. In the end I had to say no. I then regretted it for 6 months until seeing the owner imprisoned, all crew sacked and aircraft impounded. It help with my sleep patterns after that.
And I do NOT pay to work for someone who makes money with MY work and experience. Unfortunately there are enough sheeps around nowadays that think that this is still a dreamjob(authorities, especially EASA and company owners made sure that it is not) and it might be a wise investment to pay a couple of 10k for training and TR and then fly for a mini salary. Well, they killed the market, there is no turning back anymore.
But clearly it is possible(a bit of luck but more qualification and ACTUALLY being suited(=qualified, e.g. had once a aviation engineer from Germany in the company - he could write a page long formula WHY and HOW an aircraft flies - still he was a lousy pilot - by that I mean manual handling skills, decission making, being able to do that sometimes fast and effective when required) for the aviation environment are of course required) to land jobs without paying for a typerating and just being bonded.
AS for Karma. Agree. Have seen in my years in GA a lot of "fishy" things, that crew that left their established operator which did not pay so well to fly for the one with the office next door for much more money for that one owner. Turned out that they have been eventually being used to smuggle drugs from south america into Europe. Turned themself in and I know the 2 pilots ended up for months in a spanish jail(who is stupid enough tNOT divert at least to the UK or Germany for a more fair threatment, they took option #1 which was the wrong door.
On a small jet this is not an issue, I agree. But this kind of jobs and operators are still around. Do not fall for it. IF they offer so much money there is somewhere the magic "hook" - be it duty times(different chapter, right GA chaps?), maintenance always carried out by a QUALIFIED engineer, proper trained collegues and so on. The only way to reduce that risk is to try to get a job with the more pro companies in that biz - e.g. Vista or NJ. Never heard anything good from all this small outfits that try survive out there in this harsh world by cutting some corners most of the time.
Last edited by tomuchwork; 24th Jul 2019 at 20:20.
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Europe
Posts: 79
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
10 years out of training and beeing realistic about the chances to land a job is essential in your situation.
Obtaining a TR and hoping to get in might work - but might also cost you a fortune and you have no job afterwards. Another question is which type to get. Why C525? Just because it is one the cheapest Jet ratings or do you see opportunities in your area to land a job? Is it freelance or fix? There are so many questions to answer for yourself that can't be discussed here. Nobody knows your exact situation and your financial background. Is freelance even an option or do you require full time employment to pay your bills? From my own experience in the C525/Phenom 300/King Air/Premier 1,etc world freelance rates and fix salaries are a race to the bottom. Daily rates in the region of 200-300 EUR per day without per diems (sometimes) or fixed salaries between 2500 and 3000 EUR are to be expected (after beeing lucky to get hired). Any CS25 TR might result in slightly better pay but these Jobs are difficult to find. Good luck
Obtaining a TR and hoping to get in might work - but might also cost you a fortune and you have no job afterwards. Another question is which type to get. Why C525? Just because it is one the cheapest Jet ratings or do you see opportunities in your area to land a job? Is it freelance or fix? There are so many questions to answer for yourself that can't be discussed here. Nobody knows your exact situation and your financial background. Is freelance even an option or do you require full time employment to pay your bills? From my own experience in the C525/Phenom 300/King Air/Premier 1,etc world freelance rates and fix salaries are a race to the bottom. Daily rates in the region of 200-300 EUR per day without per diems (sometimes) or fixed salaries between 2500 and 3000 EUR are to be expected (after beeing lucky to get hired). Any CS25 TR might result in slightly better pay but these Jobs are difficult to find. Good luck
The standard is that you sign a bond for your type-rating. If you decide to leave before the end of the bond, you'll pay that part of cost back to your employer. That is fair and an acceptable compromise. But just telling a potential employer that you are willing to pay upfront is just stupid and not fair. Especially in the current market that is desperate for (qualified) pilots.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Germany
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hello!
5 years? We have been discussing that topic on this very forum for over 20 years now... It may be different in different parts of the world though.
This is how our national flag carrier (Lufthansa) has always been doing it and no one has had any objections with that. Ever. Today, in 2019, joining a business aviation outfit with zero experience and being more than 10 years out of training (like our original poster), a deal like that you describe is the absolute best he can get. Like it or not.
Of course he can one day proudly tell his grandchildren: "Kids, I tell you one thing: Your grandfather never paid for a typerating (or accepted a lower salary because he joined without a rating) - you really should be proud of him!". But then, for honesty's sake, he should also add a second sentence: "And kids, one more thing: Your grandfather was the best french-fries-frier they ever had at McDondals. With more than 50 years of experience and never distracted from the job by having to go flying". Sorry to put it so bluntly but this is how it is.
5 years? We have been discussing that topic on this very forum for over 20 years now... It may be different in different parts of the world though.
This is how our national flag carrier (Lufthansa) has always been doing it and no one has had any objections with that. Ever. Today, in 2019, joining a business aviation outfit with zero experience and being more than 10 years out of training (like our original poster), a deal like that you describe is the absolute best he can get. Like it or not.
Of course he can one day proudly tell his grandchildren: "Kids, I tell you one thing: Your grandfather never paid for a typerating (or accepted a lower salary because he joined without a rating) - you really should be proud of him!". But then, for honesty's sake, he should also add a second sentence: "And kids, one more thing: Your grandfather was the best french-fries-frier they ever had at McDondals. With more than 50 years of experience and never distracted from the job by having to go flying". Sorry to put it so bluntly but this is how it is.
rubani17 that's all understandable, but especially as you seem to have enough funds and as you do not need to work in aviation for a living, it would be even more important to not support employers who ask potential employees to pay for their own type-rating. Either you have talent both in an inter-personal way (most important) and also in terms of operating an aircraft (very important, too) and will find a job through this, or this industry is not for you. Possibly this sounds quite harsh and arrogant, but if everyone stopped paying for type-ratings, we would not have this problem. Luckily I do work for an employer where it is completely out of question that a pilot has to pay for a rating. You get a bond of 2 or 3 years and that's it. There's also not reduced salary for the first few years to "pay back the rating". If you look at how much passengers pay for their flights on private jets, a type-rating is just peanuts, if you look at a time-scale or 2 or 3 years. A serious employer will see a type-rating as an investment into an employee. The market is quite good at the moment, it's rather employers looking for pilots than the other way around.
I wish you good luck and that you will find a company that will give you a chance without forcing you to pay anything upfront, seriously!
I wish you good luck and that you will find a company that will give you a chance without forcing you to pay anything upfront, seriously!
Very well said, EatMyShorts!
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Italy
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi everybody, I'm in the same situation as Rubani17. Completed my training in 2007, got my first job and paid for C525 type rating. In 2011 the company I worked for went bankruptcy, I found another opportunity always on C525. In 2014 the ac was dismissed and 4 pilots were left at home. From then on and almost 2000 hours TT of which 1800 spent in the C525 I haven't been able to find any good and suitable job, except a successful screening held for Tag Aviation UK's project in connection with SurfAir in 2016 (Me and others pilots selected never started flying cause of Brexit vote). Why? Because: at that time the companies were still struggling to get out of the financial crisis, most of them have implemented a P2F scheme I've never wanted to be part of, because I have the hours but not the "tons" (>10, >20 tons flying hours), age limits, if you get lucky and got a call from a major's satellite company you'll must go through DLR, Mollymawk, IQ test or sort of only made up to depress the large number of candidatures they received and we can go on indefinitely. Anyway, if you really think flying should be your job, don't give up then. Sometime, something will come up...hopefully.
Good luck!
Good luck!
