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CHALLENGER 300 CRASH

Old 16th Nov 2016, 13:35
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CHALLENGER 300 CRASH

Hi there,

Any of you guys heard about the directional control issue a Challenger 300 had in Panama. It went right off the side of the runway!!

Rumor goes that one of the rudder pedals got stuck, what are your thoughts?

There are two videos on youtube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pm1aLKE7MG8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6M3M3u3Sqc0

I wonder how much the damage is!?
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Old 16th Nov 2016, 16:33
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Umm, that looks like quite a big yaw to the left that takes the aircraft off the runway. Would a stuck rudder pedal cause that? Perhaps if it was stuck and was then given a big kick which suddenly freed it.
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Old 16th Nov 2016, 20:35
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Loose GoPro'ish camera perhaps? I've seen some interesting field-of-view videos lately..
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Old 16th Nov 2016, 21:14
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Hmmm wonder if anti-skid was off?

N303CZ is sn20003 - going to be expensive - dug in pretty deep going
thru that mud/grass - bet those engines are toast.
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Old 17th Nov 2016, 05:13
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FicClrEnt, I donīt know if thatīs possible! What could cause the rudder to get stuck like that, they just landed!

Dufo, if thatīs true their might be another video available soon!

Robbreid, probably everything will be covered by the insurance including the engines.
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Old 17th Nov 2016, 06:37
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FicClrEnt, I donīt know if thatīs possible! What could cause the rudder to get stuck like that, they just landed!
It is the pedal that can get stuck - probably by something loose flying around in the flightdeck ... such as a bottle of water, a go-pro camera or something else stored on the floor down the sides of the seats
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Old 17th Nov 2016, 10:24
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Stuck rudder pedal or not, there is clearly a significant left-yaw input that took the aircraft on its cross-country excursion. Maybe a large rudder input or perhaps a bootfull of left wheel brake, but it's a big input!
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Old 17th Nov 2016, 19:45
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I have been promised a crash landing - but the only thing that I can see in the videos is a runway excursion. 🤓
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Old 18th Nov 2016, 11:02
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Does the 300 have nose-wheel steering, or is the nose-wheel only linked to rudder pedal inputs?
Please excuse my ignorance (on this point at least!!).....
Jez
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Old 18th Nov 2016, 11:43
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It has NWS with a tiller on the LHS (I think there may be an option to also have it on the RHS)
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Old 19th Nov 2016, 12:53
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Well, that bollockses the "stuck rudder pedal" nonsense then doesn't it?
Nose wheel steering should easily overcome any rudder input on the landing roll.
If the rudder was (indeed) jammed, keeping straight on the landing rollout would be a non-event.
Jez.
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Old 20th Nov 2016, 08:57
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If the rudder was (indeed) jammed, keeping straight on the landing rollout would be a non-event.
Not sure I entirely agree that it would be a non event. Too many variables.
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Old 20th Nov 2016, 11:07
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Well, that bollockses the "stuck rudder pedal" nonsense then doesn't it?
Nose wheel steering should easily overcome any rudder input on the landing roll.
If the rudder was (indeed) jammed, keeping straight on the landing rollout would be a non-event.
Jez.

Given that the change in direction comes only a few seconds after touchdown (so @ Vref -20/30 kts?) I seriously doubt any pilot worth their salt would have their hand on the tiller. If he/she did they need re-training.

The time between veering left and straightening up (albeit on the grass) suggests use of the tiller after they left the runway or the cause of the diversion being removed.
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Old 21st Nov 2016, 15:37
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I'd say the accident has more similarities to this one:
https://aviation-safety.net/database...?id=20110312-0

This seems a more plausible explanation that jammed controls - just imagine how the earlier part of the landing would have been if the rudder had been jammed!

The nose wheel steering is electrically controlled by a computer located under the tiller on the left side only. The computer also receives inputs from the rudder pedals, and the steering is then actuated by the left hydraulic system.

The tiller allows up to 60 degrees of steering deflection, and the rudder pedals allow up to 7 degrees.

The tiller is sprung quite positively into the centre position and it's design would make it quite obvious it the control was not centered. Whilst anything is possible I find the concept of it being off center due to something other than physically turning it, or being jammed somewhat far fetched.
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Old 21st Nov 2016, 19:35
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Do you not honestly think that a pilot would not realise that he had a jammed rudder after A/P disconnect and up to the subsequent touch down?
Maybe, the pilot is one of the "they are just there to rest my feet them" brigade ..... But I find it impossible to believe.
Come-on guys, lets wait for the report eh?
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Old 22nd Nov 2016, 08:27
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From the FCOM:

RUDDER
RUDDER CONTROL SYSTEM
The rudder provides directional control about the yaw axis. The system is mechanically controlled and hydraulically pow- ered. The mechanical part of the system has control pedals, levers, pulleys and cables which connect to two hydraulic power control units (PCUs) in the vertical stabilizer. The PCUs cause the rudder to move in proportion to the flight-crew’s control pedal input. A rudder-control feel unit supplies a simulated pedal load to the flight crew.
The pilot and copilot rudder pedal assemblies are both connected to the forward quadrant assembly, with no means to dis- connect one from the other. Two cable systems beginning at the forward quadrants follow the same path in the fuselage until they reach the engine rotor burst zone, where they are routed separately towards the rear fuselage. In the event of a severed single cable in the rotor burst zone, the aft quadrant still receives input from the unaffected cables, thus retaining rudder system functionality. On the ground, trapped hydraulic fluid provides rudder control surface gust lock damping when the hydraulic systems are depressurized.
Rudder position is displayed on the EICAS FLIGHT CONTROL synoptic page. A full-scale deflection of the rudder posi- tion indicator corresponds to maximum rudder travel.
Sep 13/2004 Flight Crew Operating Manual Volume 2
REV 1 CSP 100-6
10-01-03
FO1001002_014 PRIMARY FLIGHT CONTROLS (Cont)
RUDDER POWER CONTROL UNIT (PCU)
There are two hydraulic rudder PCUs attached to the rear spar of the vertical stabilizer. The left hydraulic system energizes the upper rudder PCU and the right hydraulic system energizes the lower rudder PCU. If the right hydraulic system loses pressure, the lower rudder PCU is powered by the auxiliary hydraulic system.
The rudder PCUs also give protection to the rudder control surface against gust loads while the aircraft is on the ground.
RUDDER TRAVEL LIMITER
The rudder travel limiter actuator puts a limit on the movement of the rudder control surface, as a function of airspeed. This insures that the aerodynamic force on the rudder is not more than the structural limit of the vertical stabilizer. The horizontal-stabilizer-trim electronic-control unit (HST ECU) controls the movement of the rudder travel limiter-actuator.
NOSEWHEEL STEERING DESCRIPTION
The nosewheel steering is designed to provide safe and reliable directional control of the aircraft during all phases of taxi, takeoff and landing. The nosewheel steering provides electrically controlled and hydraulically powered actuation of the nose landing gear steering actuator mounted on the nose gear assembly. When the nosewheel steering is not armed, or under failure con- ditions, the system continues to provide effective damping to ensure dynamic stability of the nose landing gear.
The Nosewheel Steering System (NWS) is armed by selecting the NWS switch on. The NWS switch is located on the LANDING GEAR control panel and is illuminated when it is in the OFF position. Steering commands are input to the steer- ing control unit (SCU) through the pilot handwheel (full authority, ą65° at the nose wheel) and/or through the rudder pedals (limited authority, ą7° at the nose wheel). Position feedback is provided to the SCU from a position transducer on the NLG. There is no mechanical connection between the flight deck controls and the steering actuators. Nosewheel steering com- mands are transmitted electronically using “steer-by-wire” technology.
COMPONENTS AND OPERATION
STEERING CONTROL UNIT
The steering control unit (SCU) controls the electro-hydraulic steering valve to port hydraulic fluid to either end of the steering actuator to turn the nose gear. Hydraulic pressure will move the rack, which in turn engages and rotates the pinion gear on the steering cuff. Mechanical torque links transmit the movement of the steering cuff to the nose landing gear axle. Nosewheel feedback is sent to the SCU from transducers mounted on the steering actuator. The SCU continuously monitors the NWS. Fault detection results in steering system shutdown. Any faults detected are annunciated as CAS messages. When the steering system is shutdown or disarmed, the SCU reverts the nosewheel steering to free-castering mode.
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Old 23rd Nov 2016, 06:47
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How long does it normally take for the report to come out? It happened in Panama so I assume it might be a while.....
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Old 23rd Nov 2016, 15:32
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FYI The Aircraft Exchange currently has 20 (new or used) Challenger 300s on the market at an average price of $9,335,000.
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Old 23rd Nov 2016, 18:45
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The FCOM doesn't mention a speed range at which the rudder position channel of NWS is active. I mention this because my only other steer-by-wire experience is in the LJ60 where NSW is active only below a wheel speed of 90 kts. Does anyone know if the 300 is similar in this regard?
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Old 24th Nov 2016, 12:09
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@ westhawk...

If the 300's system is the same as other Challengers (601-604-605 and 650), then it is active at all speeds.
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