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Logging P1 time

Old 11th Oct 2015, 20:50
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Logging P1 time

Hi all, now I realise that logging P1 time has been covered on here in the past but can anyone throw any light on to this simple situation?
Cessna 172, both front seat occupants are both 100% current as far as the 90 day rule is concerned, licence validation, on type etc. The front left seat occupant wishes to fly for 30 minutes in the local area but is not insured so the front right seat occupant is asked to accompany him because he is insured for the aircraft. Pilot in front left is to be the handling pilot.
So is the flight legal? , handling pilot is uninsured but the right hand seat occupant is insured but simply observing.
Am I correct to assume that the handling pilot logs the time as P1 and the right hand seat occupant logs nothing even though without his/her presence, the flight would be clearly illegal.
Thanks in anticipation
Vulcan XH558 is offline  
Old 12th Oct 2015, 09:49
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PPRuNe Handmaiden
 
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Illegal? I wouldn't use that term. From an insurance perspective, the flight wouldn't be insured but from a regulatory perspective, the pilot is permitted to fly that aeroplane.
I would say the PIC/PH is entitled to log it, but the other pilot is not.
Happy to stand corrected.
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Old 12th Oct 2015, 09:58
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My guess: Flight from a licesing point of view would be legal - but uninsured (so if something happens, insurance will not pay) - unless the guy on the right seat is an instructor, in which case he would log PIC and the guy in the left seat would log dual to satisfy insurance requirements. Therfor: if it is illegal to fly uninsured, the flight would of course be illegal.
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Old 12th Oct 2015, 11:07
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my 2 cents;

if the LH seat pilot cannot take this plane in the air by himself ( whatever the reason) , BUT can do it with another person, this other person has to be P1 for the flight ( CFI or normal pilot); Flying from the left is pure convention, not EVERYtime an obligation.

My conclusion is , Cannot log P1, at best Dual, or zero ( passenger)
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Old 12th Oct 2015, 11:15
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The only person who is able to log P1 time is the Captain which is the person who signs the technical log. In a single pilot aircraft the captain must occupy the primary seat; i.e. the left seat, unless for the the purposes of instruction as part of a recognised course of training or testing.

There have been legal cases, which I am not prepared to quote here because of professional confidentiality, where pilots have claimed experience as P1 but on subsequent post incident investigation it has been found that they did not sign the technical log on the flights claimed as P1.

If one of the pilots is the only insured person he must be the captain, must sign the technical log, must occupy the primary seat and is the only person allowed to claim P1.

Certified multi-pilot rules are different but for single pilot aircraft it is my opinion that the above applies.

MM
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Old 12th Oct 2015, 11:21
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What if the aircraft does not have a technical log ? mine doesn't.
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Old 12th Oct 2015, 12:41
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What if the aircraft does not have a technical log ? mine doesn't.
And no requirement for the "captain" (commander) to be in the "primary" seat either.
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Old 12th Oct 2015, 13:41
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In my legal understanding, the operator of an aircraft assigns the role of pilot in command to either pilot, if more than one qualified pilot is on board. In this case, it is not clear who the operator is, but based on this insurance issue I guess that it is a club or group owned aircraft. Obviously only club or group members are supposed to fly it, therefore it is only insured to these pilots. So the operator would certaily not assign a non-member as PIC and for the flight above, the pilot in the right hand seat can only log the hours.
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Old 12th Oct 2015, 17:24
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hum
 
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What if they were flying VFR but simulating instrument flight, LHS guy under a hood, RHS guy looking out, must be qualified as P1, is required to be aboard,

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...rpretation.pdf
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Old 12th Oct 2015, 18:23
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Thanks for the input everyone, maybe I should of added a little more info. The aircraft is privately owned and it is simply a case of fly it whenever you like as it hardly gets used, I'm such a lucky person!
We could even change the scenario slightly but the answer would almost definitely be the same.
Lets fly a short cross country, I, the insured pilot will fly there in the left seat (so far so good), on the return leg, the uninsured pilot will be the handling pilot in the left seat. I am not an Instructor nor is there any form of training/checking out on type taking place on the return leg.
I have actually had a right seat checkout so RHS checkout completed and I'm insured too but the handling pilot is sitting to my left. Any further input would be great.....I'm off to continue scratching my head
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Old 13th Oct 2015, 21:29
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I guessed you were private...

Why don't you ask your insurance broker ? I think it is a pure matter of insurance and not a matter of licensing.
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Old 14th Oct 2015, 12:29
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agree with the above, if you really want the other pilot to fly P1, just pay the premium for insurance, problem solved. ( you can add him/her as a named pilot; or flying only with you or a FI on board)
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