ILS Cat III on F2000

[Clandestino]

Originally Posted by FlightDetent

What about CAT II manual landing with 350m RVR, is/was that an option?

As Denti has correctly observed, restriction to autoland below CAT1 was made by operators in concert with local CAAs, based on their needs and opinions.

Originally Posted by CL300

since there is a DH, it is 3A.

Some things might have changed since I last flew 3B aeroplane but in pre-EASA Europe one could have 3B with DH less than 50 ft, which was IMHO pretty pointless as with it there just isn't enough time to avoid touch-and-go should one need to perform go-around. We got LVP approvals from every country we flew in and France was the only 3B one who restricted us to 20ft DH.

Originally Posted by EatMyShorts!

It is still good enough and you will hardly use it anyways.

It depends on one's theatre of operation. One autumn day in central Europe, I shot three actual 3As in single day.

Originally Posted by leonard17F

I read somewhere that the authorities expressed some concerns with the performance of the HUD (blinding phenomenons, etc...) and they may even have downgraded it or suspended it.

Personally I never had any problems and never heard about downgrading of HGS capability. Planes I flew were the first ones with HGS on local registry and interestingly enough, CAA had no qualms about accepting them to be manual CAT 3A capable but they were also country's first with any kind of LVP takeoff guidance and officially recognizing we can use 75m RVR instead of traditional 125 was a bit harder.

[leonard17F]

Sorry for the confusion CL300, I meant HUD/EVS not HUD only.

[canbra]

Originally Posted by Clandestino

Some things might have changed since I last flew 3B aeroplane but in pre-EASA Europe one could have 3B with DH less than 50 ft, which was IMHO pretty pointless as with it there just isn't enough time to avoid touch-and-go should one need to perform go-around. We got LVP approvals from every country we flew in and France was the only 3B one who restricted us to 20ft DH.

Nowadays, as far as I know, while EASA is still very focused on DH, the terminology the FAA (along with ICAO) is trying to use is more centered on RVR:

CAT IIIA: RVR > 700ft (200m), DH <100ft or no DH
CAT IIIB: RVR between 150ft (50m) and 700ft, DH <50ft or no DH

And then they restrict fail-passive systems (manual HUD-based or single monitored autoland, for instance) to DH >50ft.

However, the FAA also says that most OpSpecs allowing down to RVR700 can be revised to allow down to RVR600. Therefore, you can be legally authorized to perform a CAT IIIB with a fail-passive system and no rollout control-capable autoland, provided that you respect RVR600 and DH50.

Obviously, your final number is given by aircraft+operator+crew+airport combined limitations.

[leonard17F]

All,

Thanks a lot for your very valuable inputs.

So just to summarize, I understand that Cat IIIA (100 > DH > 50ft) is possible with HUD+ EVS MANUAL Flying. You do NOT need AutoLand capability (contrary to Cat IIIB).

We are still having a heated debate here, with some guys defending the opposite ("Autoland is a Must for Cat III -A or B").

[G280]

Leonard,

How about making a suggestion to Gulfstream for software 3.6 release?

[CL300]

you do not need EVS for Cat3B manual, just the HUD.

A/C with M3227 or SB F2000EX-232
OPS: P/N 9801-5150-007 OPC: P/N 9801-5640-013
Automatic CAT II ILS approach monitored with HUD
Manual CAT II and CAT III ILS approaches flown using the HUD (respectively referred to as HUD 2 and HUD 3)
NOTES :
1. THE EFVS IMAGE SHALL NOT BE DISPLAYED IN THE HUD WHEN PERFORMING CAT II OR CAT III ILS APPROACHES (AS PER AFM SUPPLEMENT 1A LIMITATION)


The Head up Guidance System is certified for use in Category II / III manual approaches within the following limits:
GENERAL
- Maximum runway elevation................................................... ................................................. 2,376 ft
- Minimum height above runway threshold for AP disengagement .............................................. 500 ft
- Maximum headwind component................................................... .............................................. 25 kt
- Maximum tailwind component ............................................................ ........................................ 10 kt
- Maximum crosswind component ............................................................ .................................... 15 kt
- Runway length ............................................................ ....................... Between 5,000 ft and 15,000 ft
- Autothrottle may remain connected until touchdown.
- Airbrakes must not be extended during the approach.
LANDING CONFIGURATION
- Gear down, - SF3.
MINIMUM CREW
- 2 pilots with qualification according to operational rules.
MINIMUM EQUIPMENT LIST
The following equipments must be in proper operating condition:
- Head Up Guidance System including:
- HGScomputer,
- HGSoverheadunit, - HGScombiner.
- 2 PDU (Primary Display Units) on LH and RH side, with ADI and HSI,
- 1 FMS (Flight Management System) on LH side,
- 2 IRS (Inertial Reference System), one set on the LH side, the other one set on the RH side,
- 1 AFCS (Automatic Flight Control System),


LIMITATIONS (APPLICABLE TO ALL A/C)



NOTE
Compliance with the certification standards does not constitute an approval to conduct Category II or III operations. Such authorization must be obtained by the operator from the appropriate authorities.
A/C with M2557 or M2752 or M3226 and without M2846
DGT88898 FOR TRAINING PURPOSES ONLY EASA APPROVED
DASSAULT AVIATION Proprietary Data
Part 2
SUPPLEMENT 1
ROCKWELL COLLINS HEAD UP GUIDANCE SYSTEM Manual Cat. II / III approach

F2000EX Airplane Flight Manual

PAGE 2 / 10
Issue 2
- 2 ILS receivers,
- 2 radioaltimeters,
- 1 TAWS (Terrain Awareness Warning System) with radioaltitude call out,
- 2 ADS (Air Data System),
- 1 SFD (Secondary Flight Display),
- 2 operating engines,
- Both hydraulic systems,
- All primary flight controls except Yaw Damper.
IRREGULAR TERRAIN
Some ILS facilities require specific airworthiness demonstration prior to approval of Category III minima, because the characteristics of the irregular pre-threshold terrain may cause abnormal performance in HGS control laws of Category III operations.
F2000EX EASy has not been approved for conducting those specific Category III approaches.
The Head up Guidance System is certified for use in Category II / III manual approaches within the following limits:
CATEGORY II
- Runway equipped with Category II ILS system.
- Minimum Decision Height (DH) ............................................................ ..................................... 100 ft
- Minimum Runway Visual Range (RVR)....................................................... ...............1,000 ft / 300 m
- HUD 2 capability must be displayed.
CATEGORY III
- Runway equipped with Category III ILS system.
- Minimum Decision Height (DH) ............................................................ ....................................... 50 ft
- Minimum Runway Visual Range (RVR)....................................................... ..................600 ft / 175 m
- HUD 3 capability must be displayed.

[leonard17F]

CL-300, thanks a lot !!
So on the F2000, even for Cat IIIB, you do not even need Auto-Land (nor EVS), only HUD (/HGS).... Interesting....

Does the HUD provide a flare cue at 50 ft (or at some other height) ?
And I understand that the auto-throttle needs to be engaged (in which case it should retard at 50ft).

G-280:
this mighty aircraft is not even Cat II..... to my deepest personal regret

[G280]

G-280:
this mighty aircraft is not even Cat II..... to my deepest personal regret

Check page 2089 of the AFM (supplements) - CATII operations.

[leonard17F]

You are absolutely correct.
My mistake.
Was confused with another aircraft.....
(But your question was about Cat III correct ?)

[CL300]

A/T do not need to be engaged, if engaged they can stay connected to touchdown, they will go idle at 20ft; at 50 ft the flare cue appears and gives info they are like " + " signs going upwards.