Short-Field experience (on jet types)
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PSF2J
I read you post with interest.
Straight answer to a straight question. Hypothetically, two airports at the destination, right next to each other. One airport has a runway giving you a factor of at least 2.0 and the other has the runway length giving you a factored distance of say 1.1. Ignore taxi distances, approach aids, wind, wx. etc..
Which airport would you choose to land at and why?
I read you post with interest.
Straight answer to a straight question. Hypothetically, two airports at the destination, right next to each other. One airport has a runway giving you a factor of at least 2.0 and the other has the runway length giving you a factored distance of say 1.1. Ignore taxi distances, approach aids, wind, wx. etc..
Which airport would you choose to land at and why?
That's not quite a fair comparison. How about an airport with a factor of 2.0 that's a 2 hour drive from destination vs. an airport with factor of 1.1 that's 15 minutes from destination?
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I thought EASA private ops were going to be under the same regulations as commercial. Is that not the case yet?
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It won't be the runway factors that directly nail private ops under EASA regulations, it'll be SMS. Private simply won't be able to justify NOT applying the same factors as commercial ops and hey presto....comply or bye bye
Here's a variant of that question, represented by a number of airports I know: You've flight planned to an airport with a 2.0 runway. As you get close, that runway is closed for some reason, but the airport has another shorter, 1.1 runway. Do you land or divert?
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Everything is very nice on the chalkboard. Things are : how often a modern jet uses a runway below 4000ft ? 3000 ft ? on the performance book one can look what is the absolute minimum as far as runway length is concerned, this will be the baseline so to speak ( ideal combination of Weight, temperature, etc..); then comes the day that you weight your beautiful and furnished aircraft.....
This day, you start talking to the contractors to lengthen the runway LoL.
Of course , if you plan to take-off again from this runway, you need to find a suitable one for this, i leave to the crew or DOA the assessment of the feasibility of the flight. Business aviation is just that : going where Airlines can't go direct. Sometimes you cannot, and have to mitigate the trip, but if you can, just do it.
Long, Short, Cold, Hot, High, Low, doesn't matter as long as it is safe and legal, your emotions shall stay away on the decision making process, otherwise one thing is for sure : Stay away from this segment of the industry, or fly companies like Netjets ( which are not cat2/3 because they cannot trust the autopilot below 200ft; but are happy to take-off in 125 m RVR) ( this is no joke at least at NJE); but the last example is a true bias of real business aviation, they are more like RYR on that side ( besides AWO)
This day, you start talking to the contractors to lengthen the runway LoL.
Of course , if you plan to take-off again from this runway, you need to find a suitable one for this, i leave to the crew or DOA the assessment of the feasibility of the flight. Business aviation is just that : going where Airlines can't go direct. Sometimes you cannot, and have to mitigate the trip, but if you can, just do it.
Long, Short, Cold, Hot, High, Low, doesn't matter as long as it is safe and legal, your emotions shall stay away on the decision making process, otherwise one thing is for sure : Stay away from this segment of the industry, or fly companies like Netjets ( which are not cat2/3 because they cannot trust the autopilot below 200ft; but are happy to take-off in 125 m RVR) ( this is no joke at least at NJE); but the last example is a true bias of real business aviation, they are more like RYR on that side ( besides AWO)
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Apologies for having other things to do!
sop_monkey. Instead of asking me an unrealistic "hypothetical" question, why not pick a real example from your experience for me that makes your point? Unsurprisingly no-one has answered your "simple" question as it is ridiculous, and does not reflect reality, and to a lesser extent, what we do.
As for risk management, I have every idea of it. I carefully review all of the factors before making a decision to operate anywhere. Just because I'm willing to accept a lower factor, I guess that makes me stupid and irresponsible?
CL300, you sum it up perfectly.
MarcK, take the 1.1!
Encorebaby.....sounds like you could make your own business there. Oh, and I'm quite sure they'll be able to justify NOT applying the same figures. The flying is different. It'll be the clever ones that get it through. They just won't publicise it because of the adamancy from people that they will HAVE to have the same.
The whole idea of having your own biz jet, is to get you to places the charter operators and airlines can't go. If you don't like this sector of the market, leave it, and stop telling us how to do it your way instead of ours!
sop_monkey. Instead of asking me an unrealistic "hypothetical" question, why not pick a real example from your experience for me that makes your point? Unsurprisingly no-one has answered your "simple" question as it is ridiculous, and does not reflect reality, and to a lesser extent, what we do.
As for risk management, I have every idea of it. I carefully review all of the factors before making a decision to operate anywhere. Just because I'm willing to accept a lower factor, I guess that makes me stupid and irresponsible?
CL300, you sum it up perfectly.
MarcK, take the 1.1!
Encorebaby.....sounds like you could make your own business there. Oh, and I'm quite sure they'll be able to justify NOT applying the same figures. The flying is different. It'll be the clever ones that get it through. They just won't publicise it because of the adamancy from people that they will HAVE to have the same.
The whole idea of having your own biz jet, is to get you to places the charter operators and airlines can't go. If you don't like this sector of the market, leave it, and stop telling us how to do it your way instead of ours!
Last edited by PSF2J; 1st Feb 2015 at 07:35. Reason: Spelling....again!
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PSF2J
All I asked was a straight answer. Still didn't get it. Ever thought about going into politics? You would be ideal for the house.
I don't try and dictate to anyone. However I will add that a lot of my early career involved operations, some it from "banana" shaped strips, both vertically and horizontally. So been there, done that and what I am trying to convey it just ain't worth it. Experience teaches you that as you only get away with it so long. I was very young and yes stupid. I am no ace and don't want to be either as "good pilots tend to get themselves killed", one way or another and unfortunately the grave yards are full of them. Was I lucky? Extremely. I retired from that sort of non passenger flying at 30, after 10 years. Flown medium and heavy a/c since, so I do feel I have the background to pass comment but not to dictate.
All I asked was a straight answer. Still didn't get it. Ever thought about going into politics? You would be ideal for the house.
I don't try and dictate to anyone. However I will add that a lot of my early career involved operations, some it from "banana" shaped strips, both vertically and horizontally. So been there, done that and what I am trying to convey it just ain't worth it. Experience teaches you that as you only get away with it so long. I was very young and yes stupid. I am no ace and don't want to be either as "good pilots tend to get themselves killed", one way or another and unfortunately the grave yards are full of them. Was I lucky? Extremely. I retired from that sort of non passenger flying at 30, after 10 years. Flown medium and heavy a/c since, so I do feel I have the background to pass comment but not to dictate.
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sop_monkey
Your last post is your problem. You think that luck and getting away with it is involved. My flying doesn't involve luck. Never has, never will.
Seriously, you should hang up the goggles.
Your last post is your problem. You think that luck and getting away with it is involved. My flying doesn't involve luck. Never has, never will.
Seriously, you should hang up the goggles.
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Well there's sweet FA anyone can do about that then 
You do understand the definition of fate?
"the development of events outside a person's control, regarded as predetermined by a supernatural power."
Please tell me how you control that one?
Unless, your clairvoyancy skills are what keep you 'safe' and 'lucky'; You clever man
I make sure I do everything within my control to operate safely.
You do understand the definition of fate?
"the development of events outside a person's control, regarded as predetermined by a supernatural power."
Please tell me how you control that one?
Unless, your clairvoyancy skills are what keep you 'safe' and 'lucky'; You clever man
I make sure I do everything within my control to operate safely.
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I had about 6000 hours flying the Dash 7 in true STOL operations.
Then went to the 727 where we operated into St Thomas when it was 4800 ft.
Then to the A-310 which we also took into St Thomas.
We regularly landed the 72 inDCA on Rwy 33
I now fly a Global into 4255'.
I don't see the big deal. You do it right, or you don't do it at all
Then went to the 727 where we operated into St Thomas when it was 4800 ft.
Then to the A-310 which we also took into St Thomas.
We regularly landed the 72 inDCA on Rwy 33
I now fly a Global into 4255'.
I don't see the big deal. You do it right, or you don't do it at all
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PSF2J...
Based on your definition of FATE, I suppose that is why commercial ops apply safety factors, it adds a basic protection over and above the seat of your pants.
Cambioso...
Why is it time to get my coat?
Based on your definition of FATE, I suppose that is why commercial ops apply safety factors, it adds a basic protection over and above the seat of your pants.
Cambioso...
Why is it time to get my coat?
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wrong place at the wrong time?
And yes, should the brakes fail, should I screw up, I have less margin. That is perfectly clear to us crew members and my passengers alike. So what ? They are prepared to take that risk and Iīm too, mitigation is factor 1,25 and trust reversers. For standing water we use 1,44...
After all, we sit in an pressurized cabin, cruise at 460+ kts 8 miles high were we canīt live and the OAT is -65°, fly over oceans, deserts and mountains - flying is a risk compared to walking on a solid ground.
I canīt really change my home base (no IFR airfield close by) and the risk we take by operating that plane there is calculated. Part of this calculation was the choice of an airplane with very low V-speeds, 2 tires on every gear, almost straight wings, a beefy brake system (same system than on the heavier C750) and T/Rs.
I know for a fact (own experience) that we operate our airplane very often way more conservative than commercial operators. Especially range/payload wise.
Is it a greater risk to fly to an island with one alternate far away with no fuel to spare at max possible FL and standard weights calculated for holiday makers, or a short hop with minimum fuel, calculated for FL 240, departing a VFR field in EDDF airspace where you know you canīt get up there, let alone quickly ... or operating into a short airfield that you know inside out with a factor of 1,25 ?
I know the answer to that one, do you ?
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I suppose that is why commercial ops apply safety factors, it adds a basic protection over
private simply won't be able to justify NOT applying the same factors as commercial ops and hey presto
like non compliance to rulesn`regs etc...
I would be pleased to fly only to and from runways 3 miles long, I wouldīnt mind an even longer one ..... by flying into small airfields....yet reality dictates different things. The line to draw is the numbers in that thick book they give us with the airplane. If you need more and youīre the PIC, apply whatever you need. If your SIC, harass your PIC if you are uncomfortable with the numbers. Easy, innit ?
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Encorebaby,
You mean to say that a safety factor is added for "predetermined supernatural power"?
If its outside of a persons control, then there is little you can do about it.....factor or not. That really is the poorest argument I have seen for that one.
As for you considering of "protection", protection from what exactly? Your own errors?
Stick with your charter/airline operator. They'll have your back when it goes wrong. Guaranteed. They'll be with you because you used the safety factors.
Grow up son.
I'm with Cambioso.
You mean to say that a safety factor is added for "predetermined supernatural power"?
If its outside of a persons control, then there is little you can do about it.....factor or not. That really is the poorest argument I have seen for that one. As for you considering of "protection", protection from what exactly? Your own errors?
Stick with your charter/airline operator. They'll have your back when it goes wrong. Guaranteed. They'll be with you because you used the safety factors.
Grow up son.I'm with Cambioso.