Dilemma
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Dilemma
I'm doing a research project and looking for broad, yet accurate facts on the following.
Setting:
- I 'want' to acquire a mid-size jet (business class or small airline size like ERJ145)
- I need long range, 2000-4000NM
- I want a competitive operating cost
- I plan on flying the aircraft 1700-2000 hrs / year (must be reliable).
- Used/value aircraft are encouraged
- The longer useful life (hours/cycles) the better...
Aircraft I've considered:
Hawker 4000
Challenger 600 series
Dassault (out of my price range/needs I think)
Questions:
- What aircraft are comparable?
- What is the life span of these aircraft with high quality maintenance and well trained aircrew?
- What is the value rating of these two compared to each other or a different aircraft that is comparable?
- What is the operating cost of these considering fuel + airframe/engine MX and overhaul?
Don't say Gulfstream or Citation--the boss said they were off the table, sorry. Any input is helpful. I'm asking this audience bc getting clear answers from manufacturers has not always been easy in the past.
Setting:
- I 'want' to acquire a mid-size jet (business class or small airline size like ERJ145)
- I need long range, 2000-4000NM
- I want a competitive operating cost
- I plan on flying the aircraft 1700-2000 hrs / year (must be reliable).
- Used/value aircraft are encouraged
- The longer useful life (hours/cycles) the better...
Aircraft I've considered:
Hawker 4000
Challenger 600 series
Dassault (out of my price range/needs I think)
Questions:
- What aircraft are comparable?
- What is the life span of these aircraft with high quality maintenance and well trained aircrew?
- What is the value rating of these two compared to each other or a different aircraft that is comparable?
- What is the operating cost of these considering fuel + airframe/engine MX and overhaul?
Don't say Gulfstream or Citation--the boss said they were off the table, sorry. Any input is helpful. I'm asking this audience bc getting clear answers from manufacturers has not always been easy in the past.
Last edited by thepoopsmith; 12th Sep 2014 at 18:30. Reason: incorrect hrs/year
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So you changed it to 2000 hrs a year, does your boss plan on living in it? Of course you won't get anything from the manufacturers no surprise there.
You won't get anything here either as you won't be taken seriously. NJ flies the crap out of their midrange jets and barely manages to get 1500 hrs a year and you want to use yours for 2000, get real.
You won't get anything here either as you won't be taken seriously. NJ flies the crap out of their midrange jets and barely manages to get 1500 hrs a year and you want to use yours for 2000, get real.
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The Challenger 604 is probably the cheapest, largest, best range, best avionics simplest maintenance etc etc. Lots of them traded in for the latest, the 605, which is deluxe but an incremental improvement for double the price. The 604 is the best bargain going in a large, comfortable, quiet, cheap (check the fuel burn, the reliability of the GE engines) aircraft. You can stand up in it which the Hawker, Citations etc don't offer. Big comfy cockpit. You can stand up to pee! Great galley. Easy to preflight. The only downside is you don't get to go to Montreal any more to train in it.
Plus, the 604 makes a great bush plane, just ask the Danish Air Force. You can fly it slow and toss it about if you need to and it's also a superior air ambulance, just ask Swiss Air Ambulance.
I like Falcons but they will cost you more to run and buy.
Take a look at the skin of a Challenger and compare it to a Cessna and get back to me about quality. No Bondo! Bombardier built tons of 604s, they are well understood and you will find plenty of pilots qualified to fly them [8>)] but expect to pay for crews as the jets are classed as "large" and you are buying experienced world-wide, ocean-crossing pilots.
The only plane I like more is the Global, but you can go too high and too far at one sitting and it screws crews. (I'm not current in that one any more).
Oh, 1000 hours per year will put you in the top operators, most owners who fly lots will only do around 300, but at .08 you are covering a LOT of ground. Reassess your intended use, 2000 is unrealistic and only the Quebec Government air ambulance (601) puts in anywhere near that.
Plus, the 604 makes a great bush plane, just ask the Danish Air Force. You can fly it slow and toss it about if you need to and it's also a superior air ambulance, just ask Swiss Air Ambulance.
I like Falcons but they will cost you more to run and buy.
Take a look at the skin of a Challenger and compare it to a Cessna and get back to me about quality. No Bondo! Bombardier built tons of 604s, they are well understood and you will find plenty of pilots qualified to fly them [8>)] but expect to pay for crews as the jets are classed as "large" and you are buying experienced world-wide, ocean-crossing pilots.
The only plane I like more is the Global, but you can go too high and too far at one sitting and it screws crews. (I'm not current in that one any more).
Oh, 1000 hours per year will put you in the top operators, most owners who fly lots will only do around 300, but at .08 you are covering a LOT of ground. Reassess your intended use, 2000 is unrealistic and only the Quebec Government air ambulance (601) puts in anywhere near that.
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Thank you for your assesment of the 604. I've been looking at that quite a bit but before I dive into the details I was hoping to get a high level assessment like you gave, rather than spend many hours pouring over several different aircraft.
My numbers are accurate, I assure you. The fleet should/will be smaller once we go to a larger aircraft (currently @ 30+). Are there any releasable numbers concerning cost per flight hour, scheduled/required incremental MX and/or long term analysis of lifespan of the 604? Is it restricted to cycles or on a longer term MX scale with a damage assessment model maintenane like the airlines?
My numbers are accurate, I assure you. The fleet should/will be smaller once we go to a larger aircraft (currently @ 30+). Are there any releasable numbers concerning cost per flight hour, scheduled/required incremental MX and/or long term analysis of lifespan of the 604? Is it restricted to cycles or on a longer term MX scale with a damage assessment model maintenane like the airlines?
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I'll take a look at the Legacy 600. Thanks for the suggestion! Looks like it was based off the ERJ series aircraft which was the general area we're looking at.
As far as payload goes, that is variable, but I'll check. After looking at the data and seeing a difference of about 4000 lbs between max total fuel and max fuel with max payload, makes me wonder what the fuel burn during cruise is? I imagine 4K lbs is at least a couple hours of cruising in the 400kts range?
Also, I'm sure the 4000NM requirement may rear its head occassionally, but hopefully it won't be an everyday event.
Are the runway length estimates for the 604 accurate? Bombardier advertises lengths below 6000 ft, which would allow for quite an array of locations. Anyone know the CBR or any other restrctions/options as far as types of fields? I'm sure semi-prepared is off the table?--gotta ask, even though I know y'all will laugh at that one for sure.
As far as payload goes, that is variable, but I'll check. After looking at the data and seeing a difference of about 4000 lbs between max total fuel and max fuel with max payload, makes me wonder what the fuel burn during cruise is? I imagine 4K lbs is at least a couple hours of cruising in the 400kts range?
Also, I'm sure the 4000NM requirement may rear its head occassionally, but hopefully it won't be an everyday event.
Are the runway length estimates for the 604 accurate? Bombardier advertises lengths below 6000 ft, which would allow for quite an array of locations. Anyone know the CBR or any other restrctions/options as far as types of fields? I'm sure semi-prepared is off the table?--gotta ask, even though I know y'all will laugh at that one for sure.
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That specification really screams Embraer Legacy.....although the full 4,000nm is beyond this machine's scope.
Likely the best way to deal with that very occasional higher requirement is charter.....
You might also take a look at the Lineage...or A318Elite as capable of achieving those sort of higher utilisation rates, especially if you can establish an airline based maintenance regime with a local operator..but these can't be considered mid-sized.
Forget anything from the Challenger 800 series.....unless you can negotiate draconian penalties for low reliability from the seller.
A Hawker 1000 would be interesting...but getting somewhat long in the tooth and those utilization rates kill off that idea somewhat.
Do328 ....range is way not enough
Fokker 100 and any of the older 'airliners' , maybe get for low price but operating costs will kill you....
Go East Young Man.....A Russian machine......sadly not...nothing fits the bill and a Yak 40, isn't going to be welcome anywhere you likely want to travel to.
Nope....Legacy it is...
Likely the best way to deal with that very occasional higher requirement is charter.....
You might also take a look at the Lineage...or A318Elite as capable of achieving those sort of higher utilisation rates, especially if you can establish an airline based maintenance regime with a local operator..but these can't be considered mid-sized.
Forget anything from the Challenger 800 series.....unless you can negotiate draconian penalties for low reliability from the seller.
A Hawker 1000 would be interesting...but getting somewhat long in the tooth and those utilization rates kill off that idea somewhat.
Do328 ....range is way not enough
Fokker 100 and any of the older 'airliners' , maybe get for low price but operating costs will kill you....
Go East Young Man.....A Russian machine......sadly not...nothing fits the bill and a Yak 40, isn't going to be welcome anywhere you likely want to travel to.
Nope....Legacy it is...
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I agree with HyFlyer. I've operated both Legacy (600&650) and Challengers, the Legacy has a much bigger baggage bay, carries more and as an adapted airliner is more reliable. It won't quite manage the same range as a Challenger and it's a little slower but still the better option I reckon.
A range requirement of 2,000 to 4,000Nm is rather strange; 2,000 is not very far but 4,000 is a heck of a long way. Where do you plan to operate? What city pairs??
3 Point
BTW, 1700 hours a year is three to four times what most bizjets are doing, are you sure? How many crews will you be hiring??
A range requirement of 2,000 to 4,000Nm is rather strange; 2,000 is not very far but 4,000 is a heck of a long way. Where do you plan to operate? What city pairs??
3 Point
BTW, 1700 hours a year is three to four times what most bizjets are doing, are you sure? How many crews will you be hiring??
The choice
TPS
There are some good guys here on this site but the information is free from people looking to, understandably, capture your business.
Please believe me when I say that the best course of action is to commission a truly independent chap to construct you a proper survey and business plan. I do not do it any more myself but can put you in touch with some who do. The value of independent advice from some one who is not chasing your business is significant.
PM me if you would like some guidance.
Regards
MM
There are some good guys here on this site but the information is free from people looking to, understandably, capture your business.
Please believe me when I say that the best course of action is to commission a truly independent chap to construct you a proper survey and business plan. I do not do it any more myself but can put you in touch with some who do. The value of independent advice from some one who is not chasing your business is significant.
PM me if you would like some guidance.
Regards
MM
