Study on Grey Charter in Europe
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Study on Grey Charter in Europe
Hi guys, I heard their is currently a study undertaken to asses the grey charter "problem". There was / is also a survey ongoing. Do you have an idea whom to contact to contribute?
Many thanks.
Many thanks.
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Grey Charter Market
Study is presently going on carried out by EBAA. Suggest that you contact them on [email protected].
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check this one out:Fly Aeolus | Rent a private jet or private plane Selling private flights... if this is not grey I don't know what is...
Like this quote:
Like this quote:
"No compromise on Safety
Fly Aeolus safety during charter flights is safeguarded by:
Regular audits on European airline regulations guaranteeing the same quality compared to aircraft charters and airlines
Fly Aeolus safety during charter flights is safeguarded by:
Regular audits on European airline regulations guaranteeing the same quality compared to aircraft charters and airlines
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From their webpage:
Sounds like NJE to me, just with pistons.
I think the whole issue of grey charter is totally blown out of proportion by some AOC holders
BTW, some things the EBAA asks about are very "nice" such as giving more rights to customs, SAFA checkers and the likes, they ask in their survey wether they should lobby towards a point were EVERY private operator would need to proof the relation of his passengers to the owner...
NSA light....
I asked the dude in Brussels what he would think if heīd had to explain himself and proof (what happened to "innocent until found guilty") to various authorities how his passengers in his private car are related to him.
Fly Aeolus is the first company to offer private aircraft services using single piston aircraft in Western Europe under a fractional ownership model. It sets an innovation in affordable private door-to-door air transport.
I think the whole issue of grey charter is totally blown out of proportion by some AOC holders
BTW, some things the EBAA asks about are very "nice" such as giving more rights to customs, SAFA checkers and the likes, they ask in their survey wether they should lobby towards a point were EVERY private operator would need to proof the relation of his passengers to the owner...
NSA light....
I asked the dude in Brussels what he would think if heīd had to explain himself and proof (what happened to "innocent until found guilty") to various authorities how his passengers in his private car are related to him.
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When I was first employed 7 years ago with my current employer I made it crystal clear what I was prepared to do, and this was one of the issues that was raised.
All this time we have never entertained the thought of overstepping this line.
This being said we will be more than pleased to declare the principles and those associated that fly on board.
BUT all AOC holders and aircraft attached to said AOC should also play fair.
Seen many AOC's been whipped out for VAT and Duty free fuel when it is known to be a owner flown flight, or FTL and Performance factors duly brought back and forward to accommodate AOC/Owner (position flights, Samadan Premier 1) flights.
Maybe there should be undeniable, unequivocal prove that the persons onboard and AOC flight has paid for their charter at market rates.
We maintain a high standard within our company, just because we dont subscribe to some overregulated, overpriced, beurocratic establishment to prove it to all others that knock us does not bother me one bit.
To be EBAA'ed into a criminal like position just because we are an owner/business, owned/operated flight makes it "guilty until we say otherwise" is prime example of the state of the industry.
All this time we have never entertained the thought of overstepping this line.
This being said we will be more than pleased to declare the principles and those associated that fly on board.
BUT all AOC holders and aircraft attached to said AOC should also play fair.
Seen many AOC's been whipped out for VAT and Duty free fuel when it is known to be a owner flown flight, or FTL and Performance factors duly brought back and forward to accommodate AOC/Owner (position flights, Samadan Premier 1) flights.
Maybe there should be undeniable, unequivocal prove that the persons onboard and AOC flight has paid for their charter at market rates.
We maintain a high standard within our company, just because we dont subscribe to some overregulated, overpriced, beurocratic establishment to prove it to all others that knock us does not bother me one bit.
To be EBAA'ed into a criminal like position just because we are an owner/business, owned/operated flight makes it "guilty until we say otherwise" is prime example of the state of the industry.
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Sounds like NJE to me, just with pistons.
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As far as I know operates NetJets to commercial rules on an AOC with two crew on proper jets...
Netjets callsigns [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums
Last edited by M-ONGO; 22nd Nov 2013 at 11:14.
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Well, I hope they paid the full whack for the fuel, not the AOC rates if it's a private positioning sector!
As this guy said:
As this guy said:
Seen many AOC's been whipped out for VAT and Duty free fuel when it is known to be a owner flown flight, or FTL and Performance factors duly brought back and forward to accommodate AOC/Owner (position flights, Samadan Premier 1) flights.
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they ask in their survey wether they should lobby towards a point were EVERY private operator would need to proof the relation of his passengers to the owner...
Hopefully Aopa or otherwise would counter this idiocy. If every private flight were to be checked then surely every AOC flight must be SAFA inspected.
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I sincerely hope this isn't given the slightest consideration. Pathetic. Whatever happened to innocent till proven guilty!!
Hopefully Aopa or otherwise would counter this idiocy. If every private flight were to be checked then surely every AOC flight must be SAFA inspected.
Hopefully Aopa or otherwise would counter this idiocy. If every private flight were to be checked then surely every AOC flight must be SAFA inspected.
It is indeed pathetic.
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I don't see this ever succeeding, the lobby "power" of a few AOC holders against a few well placed phonecalls by the owners of private aircraft in Europe, not many bookmakers would be willing to start a book on that one.
This is just smoke and mirrors to justify their membership and make themselves look good.
This is just smoke and mirrors to justify their membership and make themselves look good.
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All the time people break the law by offering charters without an AOC, then the authorities and the genuine charter operators will try and get it stopped. Unlike the corporate, which is bankrolled by a rich owner or company, the charter operator is trying to make a business out of flying people around. To do this, an AOC is required, which as we all know, costs a fortune to get and maintain. Why would AOC holders simply stand back and watch a non certified aircraft nick the business?
Not every corporate operator performs illegal charters....but every illegal charter is performed by a corporate operator. If the corporate end of the industry is incapable of regulating itself, then the authorities will have to do it for them.
If you want to offer your aircraft and pilots to fly them, to a 3rd party, get an AOC. It's pretty simple. If you don't want to get an AOC, don't offer your aircraft and/or pilots to 3rd parties.
Not every corporate operator performs illegal charters....but every illegal charter is performed by a corporate operator. If the corporate end of the industry is incapable of regulating itself, then the authorities will have to do it for them.
If you want to offer your aircraft and pilots to fly them, to a 3rd party, get an AOC. It's pretty simple. If you don't want to get an AOC, don't offer your aircraft and/or pilots to 3rd parties.
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If you don't want to get an AOC, don't offer your aircraft and/or pilots to 3rd parties.
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I'm very please for him. If he has that much money, he can afford an AOC then....if he wants to take ANY payment for these flights, or indeed the pilot wants ANY payment for these flights, an AOC will be required. In fact, even if the passengers are paying for the fuel and landing fees.....you'll need an AOC.
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Many owners lend their aircraft to friends with no payment of anything taking place, because they can afford it. The owners continue to pay "their" pilots. No AOC required.
Mine has an AOC anyway.
Mine has an AOC anyway.
It seems (to me) that the argument "AOC v Private" category operation really comes down to one or two points, namely;
If your a Private Operation, boss (or whoever) flies his chums around on his aircraft, and their is no financial (or other) inducement towards said flight, or flights - then great, no issue, and more kudos to 'em if they can afford that....don't think anyone would disagree (and the fuel cost certainly won't be an issue if you can afford to do that!).
if your an AOC Operation, flying as a business, and fulfilling all of the expensive, and onerous amounts of red-tape that are required by your local authority, EASA etc., etc. - then great, no issue, and more kudos to 'em if they can afford that....don't think anyone would disagree?.
HOWEVER....
If your a Private Operation, boss (or whoever), flies his chums, randoms etc., on his aircraft AND their is a financial contribution in some form - well, then sod you, you damn well need to get caught, and the book thrown at you fully IMHO, as it makes a mockery of all the requirements and cost that Operators with AOC's have to meet, and i'd be pretty pissy too if that was the case......just because you feel you meet (or exceed) current legislative needs, requirements or whatever, and think it's a good idea to make some hush money, don't make it right - if you want to make the money, invest the money, and join the other AOC Operators and play ball.....
F/o
If your a Private Operation, boss (or whoever) flies his chums around on his aircraft, and their is no financial (or other) inducement towards said flight, or flights - then great, no issue, and more kudos to 'em if they can afford that....don't think anyone would disagree (and the fuel cost certainly won't be an issue if you can afford to do that!).
if your an AOC Operation, flying as a business, and fulfilling all of the expensive, and onerous amounts of red-tape that are required by your local authority, EASA etc., etc. - then great, no issue, and more kudos to 'em if they can afford that....don't think anyone would disagree?.
HOWEVER....
If your a Private Operation, boss (or whoever), flies his chums, randoms etc., on his aircraft AND their is a financial contribution in some form - well, then sod you, you damn well need to get caught, and the book thrown at you fully IMHO, as it makes a mockery of all the requirements and cost that Operators with AOC's have to meet, and i'd be pretty pissy too if that was the case......just because you feel you meet (or exceed) current legislative needs, requirements or whatever, and think it's a good idea to make some hush money, don't make it right - if you want to make the money, invest the money, and join the other AOC Operators and play ball.....
F/o
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boss can use his aircraft for his friends if he wishes
It is very common for the use of his aircraft to be extended to his political friends, his extended family, his brothers friends, to say nothing of his many company co directors.
If one of the big mans jets arrived in Paris and each passenger was "asked" for the relationship to the owner, ( an off shore company several layers deep) then I suspect a (un) diplomatic note would be very fast in arriving.
Flynowpaylater, does buying dinner in Paris count as payment in kind......
F.O. feel free to ask the passengers if they have contributed to the owner, or loaned him a house or two, or whatever.
As Mutt stated, when they are that big, the extended family alone can be many hundred, or even thousands, to say nothing of "friends", and acquaintances.
glf
If one of the big mans jets arrived in Paris and each passenger was "asked" for the relationship to the owner, ( an off shore company several layers deep) then I suspect a (un) diplomatic note would be very fast in arriving.
Flynowpaylater, does buying dinner in Paris count as payment in kind......
F.O. feel free to ask the passengers if they have contributed to the owner, or loaned him a house or two, or whatever.
As Mutt stated, when they are that big, the extended family alone can be many hundred, or even thousands, to say nothing of "friends", and acquaintances.
glf
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All the time people break the law by offering charters without an AOC, then the authorities and the genuine charter operators will try and get it stopped. Unlike the corporate, which is bankrolled by a rich owner or company, the charter operator is trying to make a business out of flying people around. To do this, an AOC is required, which as we all know, costs a fortune to get and maintain. Why would AOC holders simply stand back and watch a non certified aircraft nick the business?
Not every corporate operator performs illegal charters....but every illegal charter is performed by a corporate operator. If the corporate end of the industry is incapable of regulating itself, then the authorities will have to do it for them.
If you want to offer your aircraft and pilots to fly them, to a 3rd party, get an AOC. It's pretty simple. If you don't want to get an AOC, don't offer your aircraft and/or pilots to 3rd parties.
Not every corporate operator performs illegal charters....but every illegal charter is performed by a corporate operator. If the corporate end of the industry is incapable of regulating itself, then the authorities will have to do it for them.
If you want to offer your aircraft and pilots to fly them, to a 3rd party, get an AOC. It's pretty simple. If you don't want to get an AOC, don't offer your aircraft and/or pilots to 3rd parties.
Now lets imagine you, Mr.FNPL, had say a VW bus cause you have a big family and a lot of friends. Lets assume you would take some of your friends along for a ride. Now imagine that you could be questioned by police at every drive you take what the relations between you and your "passengers" are... would you like this ? Would you think its approbiate ? Would you think that just because - I think - very few VW bus owners illegally charter out their VWs that every VW bus owner needs to be hosed with reulations ?
If one offers his services to the public without being allowed to do so - he needs punishing. But I donīt want to be thrown in the same basket.
If you argue towards a point where someone is a suspect because he sets his foot in a non AOC airplane you should think again. (as in "beware what you wish for")
And by the way, there are many AOC holders that break regulations, that I could argue that if the sector is unable to regulate itself, then...blablabla.
I have been flying air taxi for 15+ years and I have seen very, very few flights that I thought that they could be sort of... outside the regs.
Iīm in corperate now for 6+ years and have seen very few flights that could be outside the regs.
As I said before, I think its blown out of proportion big time.
And no, we donīt do illegal charters.
I have to say I agree with the point(s) made regarding asking every person on-board a Private Flight - its not realistically possible to do that, and not really desirable either for reasons mentioned earlier in others postings - my issue would be with the more blatant violators that are allegedly operating and advertising "grey" charters, and if the advertising such as an earlier mentioned company on this thread, really, really was carrying out charters without the proper paperwork in place etc., that would really be IMHO disgusting. That's the kind of thing that I personally can't stomach 
F/o
F/o