Pilots from corporate aviation not welcome at commercial operators!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: germany
Age: 52
Posts: 265
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pilots from corporate aviation not welcome at commercial operators!
I hear more and more, also from first-hand experience, that pilots with a corporate background are not welcome at commercial operators. I guess it's just another arbitrary barrier to diminish the incoming flow of applications
or maybe they view corporate aviation like airliners view business aviation in general: cowboy operators wihout SOPs etc. In my view, in both commercial and corporate operators, there are good and bad companies. To mark one sector as "good" and the other as "bad" is just too simple!
Comments, particularly from commercial operators, are welcome!
Cheers
Cecco
or maybe they view corporate aviation like airliners view business aviation in general: cowboy operators wihout SOPs etc. In my view, in both commercial and corporate operators, there are good and bad companies. To mark one sector as "good" and the other as "bad" is just too simple!
Comments, particularly from commercial operators, are welcome!
Cheers
Cecco
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: schermoney and left front seat
Age: 57
Posts: 2,438
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
maybe they view corporate aviation like airliners view business aviation in general: cowboy operators wihout SOPs etc.
As an airtaxi pilot I loved flying for these guys, cause they (both) had made it very clear that regs are regs. Which wasn´t all that clear with my superiors, especially when it came down to duty times, no 2 different types in one day and the W in W&B.
And I know for sure that these operations were more professional than the second outfit I flew for at that airport. Their SOPs were "at the printers" (no ****, thats what the director of operations told us time and again) for the 1,5 years I flew for them.
I think most of the commercial guys think and know that an experienced corporate guy tends to be less "flexible" in these respects...
But then, I might be totally wrong...
Not aware of any perceived bias against corporate pilots -we've had a few over the years. Mind you, as an airline pilot try to get even an interview with a corporate company .........
Jobs with large airline
Guys,
This all depends on your backgrounds. When running corporate flight departments I used to accept that I was not going to hold on to the good guys. So I used to train them well and write good references if they deserved it. This meant that they work hard for me whilst they were with me and I was never short of good guys to replace them. To a man or woman the people who I wrote references for passed their interviews and simulator checks with big airlines, they were trained well and I enjoyed helping them. Look after your team and they will look after you, well most of them will.
MM
This all depends on your backgrounds. When running corporate flight departments I used to accept that I was not going to hold on to the good guys. So I used to train them well and write good references if they deserved it. This meant that they work hard for me whilst they were with me and I was never short of good guys to replace them. To a man or woman the people who I wrote references for passed their interviews and simulator checks with big airlines, they were trained well and I enjoyed helping them. Look after your team and they will look after you, well most of them will.
MM
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: California
Posts: 282
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All well and good but I, as a corporate flight dept manager, do not think folks with an airline background fit in or have the the skill-set to do the job properly.
Flying the plane is not the problem. I have seen many airline pilots struggle with all the rest that's required of them in the biz jet world. Taking care of the passengers, last minute changes, odd-ball airports, TFRs, and the rest...are so foreign to airline guys that I am convinced they're not a good fit. Sure I am biased but this has been my experience for 25 years.
Likely a good stick...if a bit rough... but the job doesn't start and end at the cockpit door.
Flying the plane is not the problem. I have seen many airline pilots struggle with all the rest that's required of them in the biz jet world. Taking care of the passengers, last minute changes, odd-ball airports, TFRs, and the rest...are so foreign to airline guys that I am convinced they're not a good fit. Sure I am biased but this has been my experience for 25 years.
Likely a good stick...if a bit rough... but the job doesn't start and end at the cockpit door.
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: London
Posts: 319
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
the bit I can never understand is how, given the biz jet guy always ends up getting paid less than the airline guy, to do the job that requires you to give more - at least in the lower echelons anyway.
OutsideCAS,
Not sure of the exact question there, but here's a stab at it. Guys and gals wind up in that situation for one of several reasons:
Got into corporates hoping to get to a major--money was less of an issue than turbine experience.
Then, got "trapped" by airline stagnation (last 13 years in the US); by the cut in pay after getting into a good corporate (golden handcuffs scenario) or just liked it.
Or, the "entertainment" value makes up for the pay and T&C differences. Airline flying is boring. I'm bit of a tediophobe, personally.
GF
Not sure of the exact question there, but here's a stab at it. Guys and gals wind up in that situation for one of several reasons:
Got into corporates hoping to get to a major--money was less of an issue than turbine experience.
Then, got "trapped" by airline stagnation (last 13 years in the US); by the cut in pay after getting into a good corporate (golden handcuffs scenario) or just liked it.
Or, the "entertainment" value makes up for the pay and T&C differences. Airline flying is boring. I'm bit of a tediophobe, personally.
GF
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Dark side of the force
Age: 55
Posts: 294
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cause bizjet guys think and take decisions....and nowadays airliners don´t want that. Probably I take more decisions and changes in one normal day on bizjet than an airline guy in one year.
Both operations are completely different, flying is flying, a bizjet cowboy can ride an A380 with no problem, and a B747 guy can fly a bizjet, but bizjet it´s more demmanding, probably for the guys that really enjoy aviation even knowing that the job is a piece of ****, but empty legs, new airports found on google earth cause you don´t even know in which continent they are, new challenges and small companies it´s what keeps you alive.
I´ve been in both and I enjoy more the bizjet.
Both operations are completely different, flying is flying, a bizjet cowboy can ride an A380 with no problem, and a B747 guy can fly a bizjet, but bizjet it´s more demmanding, probably for the guys that really enjoy aviation even knowing that the job is a piece of ****, but empty legs, new airports found on google earth cause you don´t even know in which continent they are, new challenges and small companies it´s what keeps you alive.
I´ve been in both and I enjoy more the bizjet.
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,576
Received 429 Likes
on
226 Posts
I'm bit of a tediophobe, personally.
I decided to forgo my opportunity to fly for the airlines after I sat on the jump seat of a B747 for most of a flight from UK to the Far East. I realised very soon that I would never enjoy that type of flying, or rather watching the autopilot do its stuff for hours at a time.
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: UK. East Mids.
Posts: 440
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A lot of what I have just read can also echo in the cabin.
Flying as commercial cabin crew is, to a large extent, boring. Same routine, same food, no flexibility, no "flair" in what you do as it has to be "dumbed down" to fit the airlines service standards etc... Yes, there is the security and the fall back of a large operator which can be a good thing... But, some of us want different things in terms of flying. Maybe that will lead to less renumeration and security, but better job satisfaction and sense of accomplishment.
Flying as commercial cabin crew is, to a large extent, boring. Same routine, same food, no flexibility, no "flair" in what you do as it has to be "dumbed down" to fit the airlines service standards etc... Yes, there is the security and the fall back of a large operator which can be a good thing... But, some of us want different things in terms of flying. Maybe that will lead to less renumeration and security, but better job satisfaction and sense of accomplishment.
Aviator Extraordinaire
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma USA
Age: 76
Posts: 2,394
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I used to think that the only job security in the aviation industry was to be an major airline pilot.
Until I saw what happened to my good friends that flew for PanAm, Eastern, Braniff, TWA, etc.
Then I realized the truth, there is no such thing as job security when you are a pilot. Except for possibly Southwest Airlines.
But then again, if I flew for Southwest Airlines I would have never had the dubious pleasure of landing at Guam in the middle of the night in the middle of a typhoon. Because the typhoon zigged when it was supposed to zag.
Okay, it was not in the middle of the typhoon, but close enough for government work.
Until I saw what happened to my good friends that flew for PanAm, Eastern, Braniff, TWA, etc.
Then I realized the truth, there is no such thing as job security when you are a pilot. Except for possibly Southwest Airlines.
But then again, if I flew for Southwest Airlines I would have never had the dubious pleasure of landing at Guam in the middle of the night in the middle of a typhoon. Because the typhoon zigged when it was supposed to zag.
Okay, it was not in the middle of the typhoon, but close enough for government work.
Last edited by con-pilot; 29th Oct 2013 at 17:33.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Ormond Beach
Age: 49
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by deltahotel
Not aware of any perceived bias against corporate pilots -we've had a few over the years. Mind you, as an airline pilot try to get even an interview with a corporate company .........
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Ormond Beach
Age: 49
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for the suggestion, ksjc, I guess you mistook my post to mean that I've been trying to get into corporate flying, but have been unsuccessful due to my bad attitude. I may very well have a bad attitude, but it's irrelevant, because I certainly haven't been trying. It's just not my kind of flying, never has been, and I doubt ever will be.
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Europe
Posts: 651
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Corporate pilots don't think airline pilots have what it takes.
Airline pilots don't think corporate pilots have what it takes.
It's a two-way street, and this thread has some justified and unjustified points.
I am with an European major now, and yes, we are SOP monkeys. If you have 1500 pilots and don't fly with the same guy twice in a year "flexibility" in terms of procedures is just not something that works out.
There will always be a great amount of jealousy, and that goes both ways. I always glance over at the G550 parked at the FBO across the runway, but there's a lot of people who would give a hand and a foot to fly for a major, and if it's only for reasonable job security and knowing where you'll be on Saturday in three weeks.
Still, I have worked in business aviation and the good amount of people who "get the job done" but do so by violating rules here or there if necessary puts me off. If you confront them, you're being called a boring bus driver who "doesn't have what it takes" to get the job done in bizav.
These people are not people I want to work with in a cockpit and I know there are very well-run and correct flight departments out there. But they're hard to come by.
Airline pilots don't think corporate pilots have what it takes.
It's a two-way street, and this thread has some justified and unjustified points.
I am with an European major now, and yes, we are SOP monkeys. If you have 1500 pilots and don't fly with the same guy twice in a year "flexibility" in terms of procedures is just not something that works out.
There will always be a great amount of jealousy, and that goes both ways. I always glance over at the G550 parked at the FBO across the runway, but there's a lot of people who would give a hand and a foot to fly for a major, and if it's only for reasonable job security and knowing where you'll be on Saturday in three weeks.
Still, I have worked in business aviation and the good amount of people who "get the job done" but do so by violating rules here or there if necessary puts me off. If you confront them, you're being called a boring bus driver who "doesn't have what it takes" to get the job done in bizav.
These people are not people I want to work with in a cockpit and I know there are very well-run and correct flight departments out there. But they're hard to come by.
Last edited by INNflight; 30th Oct 2013 at 19:00.
ECON cruise, LR cruise...
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: MIRSI hold - give or take...
Age: 52
Posts: 568
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good post, INNflight,
The "serious" (for lack of a better word) business aviation operators are indeed trying to transform themselves into more streamlined, SOP-minded outfits, their aim being to run like airlines with smaller aircraft.
There is nothing that makes SOP building and adherence unsuitable for business aircraft operations. The notion comes from not distinguishing between the mission and the execution.
True, the mission can be rather unorthordox. And sometimes, yes, people will come up against the limits of an SOP - something no-one has thought of could be an issue, and never imagined a crew would be faced with doing.
This is where hiring the right people is important. Will they consult between the crew, consult the Flt Ops Mgr, FM and mx organisation, perform an inclusive TEM analysis and based on this come up with a sensible suggestion that achieves an equivalent overall level of safety, followed up by the company developing a permanent procedure?
Or do they shove their heads up a certain orifice and just do it?
It's easy to bend, break or circumvent the rules. It's easy to stick to the rules. Developing new rules only occasionally, and in a consistently safe manner - without thinking it gives you license to invent new rules for everything else - now, that is somewhat more difficult.
Is it something that can be taught? Yes. Is it something that is inherently closer in nature to the "SOP monkey" way of thinking than to the "cowboys"?? Absolutely.
The "serious" (for lack of a better word) business aviation operators are indeed trying to transform themselves into more streamlined, SOP-minded outfits, their aim being to run like airlines with smaller aircraft.
There is nothing that makes SOP building and adherence unsuitable for business aircraft operations. The notion comes from not distinguishing between the mission and the execution.
True, the mission can be rather unorthordox. And sometimes, yes, people will come up against the limits of an SOP - something no-one has thought of could be an issue, and never imagined a crew would be faced with doing.
This is where hiring the right people is important. Will they consult between the crew, consult the Flt Ops Mgr, FM and mx organisation, perform an inclusive TEM analysis and based on this come up with a sensible suggestion that achieves an equivalent overall level of safety, followed up by the company developing a permanent procedure?
Or do they shove their heads up a certain orifice and just do it?
It's easy to bend, break or circumvent the rules. It's easy to stick to the rules. Developing new rules only occasionally, and in a consistently safe manner - without thinking it gives you license to invent new rules for everything else - now, that is somewhat more difficult.
Is it something that can be taught? Yes. Is it something that is inherently closer in nature to the "SOP monkey" way of thinking than to the "cowboys"?? Absolutely.
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Tree
Posts: 222
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not all GA pilots are cowboys. GA is a great environment to exercise self discipline.
Anyone with any worthwhile experience:
Realize that sticking to the rules is your and your passengers guardian angle. Break them once you are expected to break them again. It is a very litigious society we are stuck with now and lawyers can and will hunt you down, even beyond the grave, if the insurance company decides not to cough up in the event of a stuff up.
Maintain their own standards.
Fly public transport restrictions even on private ops.
Stand up to bulling owners passengers in a diplomatic way. This only comes with experience, in most cases to achieve this with diplomacy. Giving in to commercial pressure can be a killer, in all types of GA.
Will use the manufacturer's SOP's as a basis for their ops. They built the aircraft, so they should have a fair idea how to operate it.
What I do have against some GA operations, is they insist on flying two Captains together as a matter of course. Statistically this is not as safe as a 4 ringer and a 2/3 ringer flying together. Reason, command gradient.
On more than one occasion in GA I have had to explain to an owner on private ops, "If you think safety is expensive, try having an accident"
Anyone with any worthwhile experience:
Realize that sticking to the rules is your and your passengers guardian angle. Break them once you are expected to break them again. It is a very litigious society we are stuck with now and lawyers can and will hunt you down, even beyond the grave, if the insurance company decides not to cough up in the event of a stuff up.
Maintain their own standards.
Fly public transport restrictions even on private ops.
Stand up to bulling owners passengers in a diplomatic way. This only comes with experience, in most cases to achieve this with diplomacy. Giving in to commercial pressure can be a killer, in all types of GA.
Will use the manufacturer's SOP's as a basis for their ops. They built the aircraft, so they should have a fair idea how to operate it.
What I do have against some GA operations, is they insist on flying two Captains together as a matter of course. Statistically this is not as safe as a 4 ringer and a 2/3 ringer flying together. Reason, command gradient.
On more than one occasion in GA I have had to explain to an owner on private ops, "If you think safety is expensive, try having an accident"
Last edited by Sop_Monkey; 31st Oct 2013 at 10:40.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: germany
Age: 52
Posts: 265
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What I specifically meant was not airlines vs. bizjet ops but commercial bizjet operators who dislike pilots from corporate bizjet operators. I know a commercial C525 operator, who wouldn´t consider employing a C525 CPT with 7000 hours because he has never flown for a commercial operator but only in corporate bizjet operations.
Cecco
Cecco
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: If this is Tuesday, it must be?
Posts: 651
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
They built the aircraft, so they should have a fair idea how to operate it.