4 passengers 2100 nm jet
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4 passengers 2100 nm jet
I would like to know what would be the best jet to have for the following routes. I am looking for the cheapest plane to purchase and maintain.
Typical load of 4 passengers doing around 500 nm but also have to be able to do 2100 nm routes.
Typical routes:
BUF - LGB
BUF - CYVR
BUF - LGB
BUF - AUS
BUF - BNA
BUF - NAS
BUF - BOS
BUF - EKI
BUF - CYPR
Been looking at CL601/604, Citation Sovereign/X, CL300, Hawker 900xp, G150
I would love to get your opinion on what you think will be best jet overall
Typical load of 4 passengers doing around 500 nm but also have to be able to do 2100 nm routes.
Typical routes:
BUF - LGB
BUF - CYVR
BUF - LGB
BUF - AUS
BUF - BNA
BUF - NAS
BUF - BOS
BUF - EKI
BUF - CYPR
Been looking at CL601/604, Citation Sovereign/X, CL300, Hawker 900xp, G150
I would love to get your opinion on what you think will be best jet overall
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4 pax and that range, the Hawker 900 would take a lot to beat, taking everything into account. Now people will come and say TKS blah blah, baggage space blah blah. For 4 pax, it is a stand up cabin with a galley, a proper toilet and sufficient baggage space. It also has good performance at MTOW.
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Sovereign
Cheap to buy, 4500 per hour to operate, probably one of the largest cargo hold and you can accomodate 9/10 pax on daily shorter routes. Burns around 2000lbs/hour and up to 11000lbs of gasoil, cruises at 0.8 and a Vref of 95kts.
Pretty versatile.
But we vould not chance more than 2300 nm with 4 pax, cabin remains a tube...
Pretty versatile.
But we vould not chance more than 2300 nm with 4 pax, cabin remains a tube...
Join Date: Nov 2001
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Do it properly through someone who knows the market and is not swayed by preference or loyalty. If your parting with $ millions, spend $ thousands on a proper study - a sure fire way of saving you $ hundreds of thousands.
Simples!
Simples!
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if you want to cover
2100 NM from time to time any direction, against any wind and with all kinds of weather enroute and at destinations, you will need a 3000 NM jet...
's as simple as that..
Falcon 50 and Falcon 2000 come to mind, if you want quality...
's as simple as that..
Falcon 50 and Falcon 2000 come to mind, if you want quality...
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Given your described missions, and the aircraft that you're looking at...the G150 will give you the best all around performance at the lowest DOCs. Having operated the G150, it's a very good airplane. The 900xp would be a second choice from an op cost perspective and not being as strong of a performer as the G150.
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Only one of the OP's listed missions has any overwater segments, and that BUF-NAS mission has plenty of contingency options in the unlikely event of an OEI.
Not knocking the DA-50/900.... In this case, it's not necessary to feed a third engine for the listed mission requirements. The OP did state that capital and operating costs were a strong consideration in the selection process.
Not knocking the DA-50/900.... In this case, it's not necessary to feed a third engine for the listed mission requirements. The OP did state that capital and operating costs were a strong consideration in the selection process.
I am looking for the cheapest plane to purchase and maintain.
Last edited by AZAV8R; 18th May 2013 at 07:30.
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may I chime in
in regards to the word " cheap"...
THERE are NO cheap airplanes...
all of the types mentioned above, can be bought on the used market for approximately the same amount of money..
In regards to operating costs, the differences may me very small indeed..
Let us take any airplane from above and let us assume that it is not older than 15 years since build when acquired..
Engines and APU can be "capped" by programs..
how much the airframe maintenance will actually cost over the years depends on the quality of any plane when bought, good history, good pre-buy and good maintenance and operating practices thereafter
All of them will run in the range of between 5K and 6K EUR ( or take the same amount in USD if operating in the US) per hour when flown around 300 - 400 hours a year..
Having said that and taking today's used market I would take the most performing of the above for such missions...not a bird that "just" might make the longest mission on a good day...but one that will do it any day of the year..
and that would mean we are in the F50, F2000, F900, CL601/604 class and aside from the F50 those birds are in fact halfway comfortable for 4 pax on 5 - 6 hour flights..
on any smaller bird you may actually pay the same amount of money at the end, but end up feeling "cramped" in the cabin...and may face days, when some missions cannot be flown non-stop
THERE are NO cheap airplanes...
all of the types mentioned above, can be bought on the used market for approximately the same amount of money..
In regards to operating costs, the differences may me very small indeed..
Let us take any airplane from above and let us assume that it is not older than 15 years since build when acquired..
Engines and APU can be "capped" by programs..
how much the airframe maintenance will actually cost over the years depends on the quality of any plane when bought, good history, good pre-buy and good maintenance and operating practices thereafter
All of them will run in the range of between 5K and 6K EUR ( or take the same amount in USD if operating in the US) per hour when flown around 300 - 400 hours a year..
Having said that and taking today's used market I would take the most performing of the above for such missions...not a bird that "just" might make the longest mission on a good day...but one that will do it any day of the year..
and that would mean we are in the F50, F2000, F900, CL601/604 class and aside from the F50 those birds are in fact halfway comfortable for 4 pax on 5 - 6 hour flights..
on any smaller bird you may actually pay the same amount of money at the end, but end up feeling "cramped" in the cabin...and may face days, when some missions cannot be flown non-stop
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Falconer.
All great airplanes. But you are moving up a notch in DOC's in comparison to a Sovereign/Hawker. Not to mention down a notch in age/hours/cycles in what you'd expect for the same dollars. If 2100nm is the expected max mission length, and by the wording of the initial post that's not going to be the main mission, then I really do think a Falcon is overkill.
A lovely Hawker/Sovereign can be had for a lot less than the bigger options.
No experience of the Sov, but I've never heard a complaint about the Hawker cabin, even on longer flights than 5 hours.
All great airplanes. But you are moving up a notch in DOC's in comparison to a Sovereign/Hawker. Not to mention down a notch in age/hours/cycles in what you'd expect for the same dollars. If 2100nm is the expected max mission length, and by the wording of the initial post that's not going to be the main mission, then I really do think a Falcon is overkill.
A lovely Hawker/Sovereign can be had for a lot less than the bigger options.
No experience of the Sov, but I've never heard a complaint about the Hawker cabin, even on longer flights than 5 hours.
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The Sovereign might be a good choice for you. MX-wise pretty straight forward, goes easily in/out real small fields, probably the best second segment performer youŽll find and a really quiet cabin. Fun to fly. Low V-speeds. Unproblematic W&B.
Tankering is really easy doable, only 3200lbs between MLW and MTOW. We sometimes do fly back from some remote place in two stages, both around 1800-2000nm long.
The real annouying thing about the Sov is cockpit space - after a 9-10-11-12 hrs day in the office one really wants a bigger airplane. My boss and the board are still pleased with the bird after almost 6 years. Range starts to become an issue for us, as we need more than the 2300nm we use as our max range.
Tankering is really easy doable, only 3200lbs between MLW and MTOW. We sometimes do fly back from some remote place in two stages, both around 1800-2000nm long.
The real annouying thing about the Sov is cockpit space - after a 9-10-11-12 hrs day in the office one really wants a bigger airplane. My boss and the board are still pleased with the bird after almost 6 years. Range starts to become an issue for us, as we need more than the 2300nm we use as our max range.
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Dude.....
you sound like you're getting ready for something like this..?
Overview
or this maybe...?
The ultimate combination of range, agility and comfort
Overview
or this maybe...?
The ultimate combination of range, agility and comfort
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The LXS please...what a beauty.
WonŽt happen any time soon though....as I wrote: THEY are still pleased with the Sov and space isnŽt a concern for them yet... for the time being they are okay with the intermediate stops we have to make...
Our airplane will be replaced in a bout 4 years (when the Sov turns 10...), at least thats the plan right now. IŽll wait and see...
WonŽt happen any time soon though....as I wrote: THEY are still pleased with the Sov and space isnŽt a concern for them yet... for the time being they are okay with the intermediate stops we have to make...
Our airplane will be replaced in a bout 4 years (when the Sov turns 10...), at least thats the plan right now. IŽll wait and see...
Last edited by His dudeness; 19th May 2013 at 18:51.
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CL601 if you are aren't worried about age, H900XP if you are, if you can sacrifice a passenger LR60 would probably work (not too comfy with 8 pax, but then again the Sovereign / C750 is the only midsize that's comfy with 8 pax as it offers a 2x club 4 layout - though some don't have this so watch out).
An idea of budget would probably rule out some suggestions.
An idea of budget would probably rule out some suggestions.
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"(I would like to know what would be the best jet to have for the following routes. I am looking for the <cheapest> plane to purchase and <maintain>. Typical load of <4> passengers doing around 500 nm but also have to be able to do <2100> nm routes)".
Under the circumstances you presented and nothing else to consider a Westwind 2 is the airplane.
Under the circumstances you presented and nothing else to consider a Westwind 2 is the airplane.
For what you want the math is easy. 3 Million USD to buy 1 Million USD a year to operate. Do you really have this kind on money ?