How did you get into business jet aviation?
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SwedePilot, yep very interesting. What qualifications did you have to get a job in ops in the first place? Is it a requirment to hold an pilot license or any other non-flying related certificates? A university degree maybe? Just curious how I can find a job like that in the future...
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Qualifications
Hmmm, All job advertisements I've seen relating Operations requires either that you worked in Operations before or that you are a pilot. Some employers think that it is negative if you are a pilot, as you will probably find your way to a flying job instead as fast as you can. Others think it's good since you already know some of the regulations we follow in Operations and understand bits of the business already. I think its up to the employer. If they want to use you as both a pilot and at Operations in the future its obviously good to be a pilot 
But if not, that doesn't matter or could even be a bad thing. Bigger companies comply to the last, more slimmed ones most probably want you to be able to play different roles to be as useful as possible.
You should have finished high school and have a driving license and access to a car. When I applied to our company they didnt need anyone at Operations either, but after coming to the interview, which was set up just because I called and nagged the chief pilot, he and the others in the office thought that I'd fit well into the Operations because of what I have worked with in the past and because I'm a pilot. (Have had some service jobs and a lot to do with customer contact and stressful environments).
Even if you have experience from this kind of work before you'll have a company course and a course in Subpart Q and other relevant matters.
But if not, that doesn't matter or could even be a bad thing. Bigger companies comply to the last, more slimmed ones most probably want you to be able to play different roles to be as useful as possible. You should have finished high school and have a driving license and access to a car. When I applied to our company they didnt need anyone at Operations either, but after coming to the interview, which was set up just because I called and nagged the chief pilot, he and the others in the office thought that I'd fit well into the Operations because of what I have worked with in the past and because I'm a pilot. (Have had some service jobs and a lot to do with customer contact and stressful environments).
Even if you have experience from this kind of work before you'll have a company course and a course in Subpart Q and other relevant matters.
Last edited by SwedePilot; 16th Apr 2013 at 05:23.
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I can second that working in OPS is a great way to get into the business.
Not only will you make valuable contacts while proving you are doing a good and enthusiastic job for the ones already flying, but you will in all honesty gain a wealth of knowledge and insights that will help you to better understand the way business aviation works.
While I am currently with an airline, I paid some dues in bizav dispatch and it was a learning experience I would not want to miss. It's a very small world out there, and you will cross paths with a lot of people over the years. It will most certainly pay off if they remember you doing excellent and motivated work for them back in the days.
Not only will you make valuable contacts while proving you are doing a good and enthusiastic job for the ones already flying, but you will in all honesty gain a wealth of knowledge and insights that will help you to better understand the way business aviation works.
While I am currently with an airline, I paid some dues in bizav dispatch and it was a learning experience I would not want to miss. It's a very small world out there, and you will cross paths with a lot of people over the years. It will most certainly pay off if they remember you doing excellent and motivated work for them back in the days.
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SwedePilot, congrats for your first flight. I hope you had a blast ! I know the first one can be pretty challenging.. tell me about it .
Out of curiosity, what kind of BizJet are you currently flying ?
.Out of curiosity, what kind of BizJet are you currently flying ?
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Was lucky enough to have an old man who saw it was cheaper to buy than to hire. So..flew family twin for 3 years, headed to places exotic and not so exotic.
Got an AOC for the twin, eventually, but business was cr@p, so Dad sold the AOC to some bloke who wanted to start up a freight operation. Was sold into slavery as well, and after setting up the office and writing Ops manuals, got a position in RHS of Shed 33
Company folded as I was doing my Command training.
Went to San Antonio to do self sponsered C550 rating, finished on the monday, flew home tuesday, phone call from LEA wednesday, interview STN thursday, started on the monday !!!
Lucky doesn't cut it.
Left LEA as was offered position by Redsnails well known company...been here 10 years now and have seen more changes than Chelsea managers.
Good luck and remember:
1) it's a small world aviation, try not to step on peoples hands as you climb the ladder.....
You may need them to catch you if you slide back down again.
2) Be better than the guy/girl next to you ( or at least make them think you are )
blue side up
SL
edited to include the word girl. Lest I get accused of sexism
Got an AOC for the twin, eventually, but business was cr@p, so Dad sold the AOC to some bloke who wanted to start up a freight operation. Was sold into slavery as well, and after setting up the office and writing Ops manuals, got a position in RHS of Shed 33
Company folded as I was doing my Command training.
Went to San Antonio to do self sponsered C550 rating, finished on the monday, flew home tuesday, phone call from LEA wednesday, interview STN thursday, started on the monday !!!
Lucky doesn't cut it.
Left LEA as was offered position by Redsnails well known company...been here 10 years now and have seen more changes than Chelsea managers.
Good luck and remember:
1) it's a small world aviation, try not to step on peoples hands as you climb the ladder.....
You may need them to catch you if you slide back down again.
2) Be better than the guy/girl next to you ( or at least make them think you are )
blue side up
SL
edited to include the word girl. Lest I get accused of sexism
Last edited by Scroll Lock; 18th Apr 2013 at 13:52.
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Scroll Lock, thanks for the advice!
So LEA didn't require any experience on type? Did they require a TR though?
And say if you were planning on funding a TR, which TR would you choose? I mean with airlines it's easy - you either do a 737NG or an A320 and with either one the chances of it being useful are roughly 50%. But with biz jets... I mean there are so may different type out there... surely you must have some sort of monumental luck to find an operator who wants someone with the TR you have & no hours on type?
Also, I was wondering, when employers do require a TR, is it possible to apply for the job without having one but with the intention of acquiring it by self-funding straight after you get selected? I mean provided you do actually get selected.
P.S. Just checked out LEA's fleet. They don't seem to have any 550s at present time.
So LEA didn't require any experience on type? Did they require a TR though?
And say if you were planning on funding a TR, which TR would you choose? I mean with airlines it's easy - you either do a 737NG or an A320 and with either one the chances of it being useful are roughly 50%. But with biz jets... I mean there are so may different type out there... surely you must have some sort of monumental luck to find an operator who wants someone with the TR you have & no hours on type?
Also, I was wondering, when employers do require a TR, is it possible to apply for the job without having one but with the intention of acquiring it by self-funding straight after you get selected? I mean provided you do actually get selected.
P.S. Just checked out LEA's fleet. They don't seem to have any 550s at present time.
Last edited by Bearcat F8F; 18th Apr 2013 at 15:41.
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Self funding type ratings is not normal in this sector and is looked upon very unfavorably by many of the people you will be approaching for work. In many cases, the mere suggestion could sabotage your application.
Besides being incredibly risky (guessing which type you would be hired on) it's almost axiomatic that the sort of place that would demand you pay for your type is the sort of place you won't enjoy working or want on your CV. Bonding is a much fairer and healthier suggestion.
If you are serious about corporate, you need to be a bit more realistic. In all likelihood you will need to get a ground position and network you way in and in the mean time build some meaningful flight time that demonstrates some commitment and tangible skills to the corporate community. Thankfully the corporate world is generally not prepared to baby sit freshly licensed pilots which is indicative that this sector genuinely values experience, personality and handling skills.
I appreciate your enthusiasm and the difficulty of getting into the corporate world, but only professional contractors organize their own training which is a very niche role, demanding, also financially risky and something you are very many years and hours from being able to consider.
Besides being incredibly risky (guessing which type you would be hired on) it's almost axiomatic that the sort of place that would demand you pay for your type is the sort of place you won't enjoy working or want on your CV. Bonding is a much fairer and healthier suggestion.
If you are serious about corporate, you need to be a bit more realistic. In all likelihood you will need to get a ground position and network you way in and in the mean time build some meaningful flight time that demonstrates some commitment and tangible skills to the corporate community. Thankfully the corporate world is generally not prepared to baby sit freshly licensed pilots which is indicative that this sector genuinely values experience, personality and handling skills.
I appreciate your enthusiasm and the difficulty of getting into the corporate world, but only professional contractors organize their own training which is a very niche role, demanding, also financially risky and something you are very many years and hours from being able to consider.
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Bearcat,
No I dont think they operate the Citation II anymore.
I was with them in 2002, just after they statred the jet operation from STN, so ages ago.
They as a company like self sponsored people, but i wouldnt do anything unless you had a firm job offer in writing from them. Mind you, this info is at least 11 years old, so prob not of use.
happy hunting
SL
No I dont think they operate the Citation II anymore.
I was with them in 2002, just after they statred the jet operation from STN, so ages ago.
They as a company like self sponsored people, but i wouldnt do anything unless you had a firm job offer in writing from them. Mind you, this info is at least 11 years old, so prob not of use.
happy hunting
SL
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Self funding type ratings is not normal in this sector and is looked upon very unfavorably by many of the people you will be approaching for work. In many cases, the mere suggestion could sabotage your application.
Self funding type ratings is not normal in this sector and is looked upon very unfavorably by many of the people you will be approaching for work. In many cases, the mere suggestion could sabotage your application.
Last edited by RAFAT; 21st Apr 2013 at 03:17.
The largest respected management and charter companies still don't seem to hold back on financing type ratings for the "right" people. Surely some owners/management companies from time to time require pilots with time on type - for whatever reasons that may be - say insurance requirements.
An employer/company with integrity and a properly setup business plan might chose to bond the employee for say 2-3 years - just as a matter of justification towards the owners.
At the end of the day a 50K USD G-V, BD700, 7X etc TR is really not that much money, in the grand perspective of things - as seen from the owners side or the companies side - if they found the "right" pilot(s) for the job. You don't get rich from only looking at the short term cost side of things.
An employer/company with integrity and a properly setup business plan might chose to bond the employee for say 2-3 years - just as a matter of justification towards the owners.
At the end of the day a 50K USD G-V, BD700, 7X etc TR is really not that much money, in the grand perspective of things - as seen from the owners side or the companies side - if they found the "right" pilot(s) for the job. You don't get rich from only looking at the short term cost side of things.
Last edited by Klimax; 21st Apr 2013 at 07:34.
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Age
BC,
You're still very young and probably would have more chance getting into an airline for your first job than corporate. Being older in corporate is generally seen as a plus as it portrays experience whether it is true or not. Where as, in the airlines, being older (without experience) is seen as a negative as you are considered a training threat. In corporate, often there are other barriers such min hours required for insurance purposes.
My route in was unexpected. I worked at weekends for 18 months in dispatch alongside my full time mon to fri job with a 3 hr drive thrown in for good measure. Not easy with a demanding job and young family. Out of the blue, my old ppl instructor who I had kept in contact with (but never asked for a job) called me to ask if I was interested in a FO position with his operator which was on my doorstep. Had plenty to talk about in my interviews and my 18 months in Dispatch with another operator demonstrated the commitment to GA they were seeking. So as people have said, corporate is all about contacts/friends as positions rarely get advertised with the smaller outfits.
As others have said, I would suggest some hard time in Ops/Dispatch may be your best chance as you quite often find barriers around min hours for insurance purposes then disappear!
GA flying is varied and often rewarding, but this is all down to the type of operator. Good luck with your endeavours.
You're still very young and probably would have more chance getting into an airline for your first job than corporate. Being older in corporate is generally seen as a plus as it portrays experience whether it is true or not. Where as, in the airlines, being older (without experience) is seen as a negative as you are considered a training threat. In corporate, often there are other barriers such min hours required for insurance purposes.
My route in was unexpected. I worked at weekends for 18 months in dispatch alongside my full time mon to fri job with a 3 hr drive thrown in for good measure. Not easy with a demanding job and young family. Out of the blue, my old ppl instructor who I had kept in contact with (but never asked for a job) called me to ask if I was interested in a FO position with his operator which was on my doorstep. Had plenty to talk about in my interviews and my 18 months in Dispatch with another operator demonstrated the commitment to GA they were seeking. So as people have said, corporate is all about contacts/friends as positions rarely get advertised with the smaller outfits.
As others have said, I would suggest some hard time in Ops/Dispatch may be your best chance as you quite often find barriers around min hours for insurance purposes then disappear!
GA flying is varied and often rewarding, but this is all down to the type of operator. Good luck with your endeavours.
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Self Funding
I am in a position to hire pilots and I immediately disqualify anyone that says they will work for free or fund their own type.
Billionaires own the airplanes we operate. A 50k type rating is part of the cost of doing business.
Billionaires own the airplanes we operate. A 50k type rating is part of the cost of doing business.
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The problem is that a lot of greedy management companies have been promising owners that they will get type rated pilots so that they look cheaper than the competition. This has now become almost industry standard, at least in Europe.
What they don't tell the owner is that, at least if the aircraft is on an AOC, they will have to complete a company recurrent anyway and at the end of the day the difference in cost will be very little between getting a rated or non-rated pilot. In fact, it may be a very good investment to spend that little extra money and get the right people through the doors. Instead companies are now recruiting type ratings and not pilots.
What they don't tell the owner is that, at least if the aircraft is on an AOC, they will have to complete a company recurrent anyway and at the end of the day the difference in cost will be very little between getting a rated or non-rated pilot. In fact, it may be a very good investment to spend that little extra money and get the right people through the doors. Instead companies are now recruiting type ratings and not pilots.
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DA50driver, sorry, I'm a bit lost now... so if someone shows up with a TR already in hand for the position you are recruiting for, do you turn him/her down? My point being, what is the difference in getting a type rated person as opposed to one that is willing to self-fund it anyway?
Don't get me wrong, I can't imagine anything better than the employer paying for the TR, and frankly it's a disgrace that it needs to happen any other way, but at the end of the day, lots of operators seem to want type rated people... and surely you can't blame someone for trying to get his/her foot inside the door by self-funding it (provided there's a job on the other end).
Don't get me wrong, I can't imagine anything better than the employer paying for the TR, and frankly it's a disgrace that it needs to happen any other way, but at the end of the day, lots of operators seem to want type rated people... and surely you can't blame someone for trying to get his/her foot inside the door by self-funding it (provided there's a job on the other end).
Last edited by Bearcat F8F; 21st Apr 2013 at 23:38.
DA50driver - that's a very honourable standpoint which no doubt leads you to recruit the right person for the job, however, CaptainProp portrays a scenario which is far more familiar to me than yours.