pilot job
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pilot job
Hello
I just got my CPL and cleared the ATPL written exams
I am looking forward to fly for a charter before joining airlines.
on what basis does all the biz jets or turbo prop charter companies recruit their pilots.
If i get a type rating of lets say hawker or even global express , what are the chances of getting as job as a co-pilot with the type rating self sponsored.
I just got my CPL and cleared the ATPL written exams
I am looking forward to fly for a charter before joining airlines.
on what basis does all the biz jets or turbo prop charter companies recruit their pilots.
If i get a type rating of lets say hawker or even global express , what are the chances of getting as job as a co-pilot with the type rating self sponsored.
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No.
Simple as that. A TR - for example on a Global Express - costs probably half what your entire training up to this point has.
It will be very much a waste of time & money, because you have
a) by far not enough experience (large Bizjet F/Os usually get recruited with several thousand hours and previous corporate experience) and
b) even if you had a type rating, you'll be worthless again when the first recurrent comes up. Not a cheap thing to do out of your pocket on a Global.
Also, contrary to popular belief, the corporate operators are not exactly short on applications. It's a wild world out there - I've worked with operators who get a hundred CVs each week, 90 of them from low-time guys and gals who BEG to be allowed to fly.
A job in OPS / Dispatch would be a lot better to get to know some folks and get a foot into the door.
Simple as that. A TR - for example on a Global Express - costs probably half what your entire training up to this point has.
It will be very much a waste of time & money, because you have
a) by far not enough experience (large Bizjet F/Os usually get recruited with several thousand hours and previous corporate experience) and
b) even if you had a type rating, you'll be worthless again when the first recurrent comes up. Not a cheap thing to do out of your pocket on a Global.
Also, contrary to popular belief, the corporate operators are not exactly short on applications. It's a wild world out there - I've worked with operators who get a hundred CVs each week, 90 of them from low-time guys and gals who BEG to be allowed to fly.
A job in OPS / Dispatch would be a lot better to get to know some folks and get a foot into the door.
Last edited by INNflight; 18th Jun 2012 at 07:01.
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hi
I think for most operators, you already need to have some experience before joining them. Most of the time it is an insurance issue. It think in the UK it is 700h u need to have already.
Getting a type before applying is never a good idea. Dont forget u need to do your T&G's, how else are u goingto put your type on your licence???
Then concerning the prices of bizz jet. It can be very expensive. If u want to go for a global express, it exceeds the price of a 737/A320 rating. I heard prices of 40k euro's and more. On top of that u need to pay extra for the touch and goes. And even after done that, you have 0.0 experience. Plus the marketvalue of 737/A320 is in my opinion always higher than any other jet.
So in my opinion and for your own sake: safe that money and try to get in the airline.
Good Luck!!
I think for most operators, you already need to have some experience before joining them. Most of the time it is an insurance issue. It think in the UK it is 700h u need to have already.
Getting a type before applying is never a good idea. Dont forget u need to do your T&G's, how else are u goingto put your type on your licence???
Then concerning the prices of bizz jet. It can be very expensive. If u want to go for a global express, it exceeds the price of a 737/A320 rating. I heard prices of 40k euro's and more. On top of that u need to pay extra for the touch and goes. And even after done that, you have 0.0 experience. Plus the marketvalue of 737/A320 is in my opinion always higher than any other jet.
So in my opinion and for your own sake: safe that money and try to get in the airline.
Good Luck!!
Last edited by Stick35; 18th Jun 2012 at 07:12.
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Why do you see "charter" as an entry to airlines?
Not sure your ideas don't really hold much water.....maybe self sponsoring an entry level biz-jet MAY help you to one of the very small operators, but if you check at CAE (Burgess Hill) you will find that a GLEX rating is over three times more expensive as a A320 rating.........
Top level biz jets will require a fair amount of experience because the insurance costs are far more prohibitive. My current employer requires an (issued) ATPL for First Officer applicants.
And I suspect that most of the corporate drivers are very happy with their lot, I for one would not like to change what I do to move to the airline world, for (generally) less pay, more hours, poorer conditions and less variety.
As for the hour building dilemma, you are not the first pilot to have this problem! There are many routes to increasing your hours, and sometimes you have to swallow your pride and do one of them. Not all 200 hour graduates can expect to walk into an airline......
Top level biz jets will require a fair amount of experience because the insurance costs are far more prohibitive. My current employer requires an (issued) ATPL for First Officer applicants.
And I suspect that most of the corporate drivers are very happy with their lot, I for one would not like to change what I do to move to the airline world, for (generally) less pay, more hours, poorer conditions and less variety.
As for the hour building dilemma, you are not the first pilot to have this problem! There are many routes to increasing your hours, and sometimes you have to swallow your pride and do one of them. Not all 200 hour graduates can expect to walk into an airline......
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EMI,
Glider towing, etc. as mentioned above is the way to go unless you have a CFI and can get an instructing position somewhere.
Don't expect any pay (with money) - be happy being paid in free flying hours or a sandwich for lunch.
Anything that does not require you to pay for the aircraft / fuel / fees will be the best starting point - and it may even be fun doing some unpaid flying. ;-)
If you want to actively work on securing a bizav job (besides building hours), I strongly suggest trying to get an OPS position with an operator.
That can be dispatch, crew control, sales, etc.
Anything that puts you into a company's office where you can get to know the right people and learn how their daily operations work.
If you do well and stay motivated, you'll be the first one to know when they lack a F/O before the job ad is even put together. Stay current and the chief pilot will certainly remember you and the work you did for the company.
EDIT: I strongly advise against buying ANY kind of rating, even a King Air. It will be a complete waste of your time and money without having secured a position in advance. Your currency will lapse and it won't be worth the paper printed on!
You can live off the money you would pay for a jet rating for a VERY long time in reasonable comfort - save yourself the pain and money.
Glider towing, etc. as mentioned above is the way to go unless you have a CFI and can get an instructing position somewhere.
Don't expect any pay (with money) - be happy being paid in free flying hours or a sandwich for lunch.
Anything that does not require you to pay for the aircraft / fuel / fees will be the best starting point - and it may even be fun doing some unpaid flying. ;-)
If you want to actively work on securing a bizav job (besides building hours), I strongly suggest trying to get an OPS position with an operator.
That can be dispatch, crew control, sales, etc.
Anything that puts you into a company's office where you can get to know the right people and learn how their daily operations work.
If you do well and stay motivated, you'll be the first one to know when they lack a F/O before the job ad is even put together. Stay current and the chief pilot will certainly remember you and the work you did for the company.
EDIT: I strongly advise against buying ANY kind of rating, even a King Air. It will be a complete waste of your time and money without having secured a position in advance. Your currency will lapse and it won't be worth the paper printed on!
You can live off the money you would pay for a jet rating for a VERY long time in reasonable comfort - save yourself the pain and money.
Last edited by INNflight; 18th Jun 2012 at 16:04.
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Echo,
I don't normally like to flame people who come here to ask advice, but do you not think this type of research is something you perhaps should have done BEFORE you (presumedly) spent a lot of time and money getting your CPL?
If you thought that you would easily get a Biz Jet job as a vehicle to build hours, and to use that experience as a stepping stone to an airline job, then is suggests you know very little about the industry that you've spent time and money entering into.
Good luck, but I suggest you do a little homework on the state of the industry and where you can realistically expect to enter.
I don't normally like to flame people who come here to ask advice, but do you not think this type of research is something you perhaps should have done BEFORE you (presumedly) spent a lot of time and money getting your CPL?
If you thought that you would easily get a Biz Jet job as a vehicle to build hours, and to use that experience as a stepping stone to an airline job, then is suggests you know very little about the industry that you've spent time and money entering into.
Good luck, but I suggest you do a little homework on the state of the industry and where you can realistically expect to enter.
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Parachute pilot, aerial photography... I got 300 hours in 3 months as a pilot with Skyviews in 1995. They paid me money aswell. Parachute flying is great fun, but don't expect to get paid. I also hung around the airport and did ferry flights, riding shotgun etc.
I agree with all the posts above, don't buy a rating.
There is no easy way to become a professional pilot...
I agree with all the posts above, don't buy a rating.
There is no easy way to become a professional pilot...
Last edited by Oldschoolflyer; 18th Jun 2012 at 16:33.
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A biz job is usually for highly experienced people, I recently looked along the path. But if you only have a cpl with low hours its going to be aerial photography, FI or p2f in the airlines. The corporate jet world is a totally different world, its a little easier to go from Airline to Biz, than Biz to airline which I recently saw happen... goodluck...
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I don't know who you have been talking to, but you sure have a misunderstanding of how jobs work in aviation. First officer on a Global Express as an entry level job? And then leaving that for the airlines? Crazy. A Global Express job is a career position, and going from that to be a first officer on a regional would be a huge step backwards. I am a captain on a light jet, and have 4500 hours total time. If someone offered me the right seat on a Global Express, I would not hesitate, and it would likely mean a pay raise as well.
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Well i should not have mentioned global express there.
I understand that i should be aiming for a twin turbo prop like king air or something.
I also understand that to get a job on biz jet i need at least 500 to 700 hours of flying. and most of the guys suggested that i should be doing Glider towing, banner towing etc (not genuinely interested in instructing) which i am sure would take more than 5-6 years
.
I am sure its a long journey for me and my patience will be tested to the limits.
I am determined and hopeful.
I am actually rated on king air c90 and i have been promised by a charter for a job there. hoping for the best.
Actually more than the turbo prop i am keen on flying the small twin jets like hawker etc.. thats why i started this forum.
anyways thank you all
I understand that i should be aiming for a twin turbo prop like king air or something.
I also understand that to get a job on biz jet i need at least 500 to 700 hours of flying. and most of the guys suggested that i should be doing Glider towing, banner towing etc (not genuinely interested in instructing) which i am sure would take more than 5-6 years
.I am sure its a long journey for me and my patience will be tested to the limits.
I am determined and hopeful.
I am actually rated on king air c90 and i have been promised by a charter for a job there. hoping for the best.
Actually more than the turbo prop i am keen on flying the small twin jets like hawker etc.. thats why i started this forum.
anyways thank you all
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Five years sounds about right....
I did instructing, traffic spotting and aerial photography before getting my first commercial job on a jet. Although during the UK summer, any one of the above should get you 20+ hours per week......
Don't knock instructing.....it was easily the most rewarding flying I've done to date......sending someone on their first solo circuit, or solo X-country and then seeing them achieve a PPL is an experience that will make me smile for years to come.......
Don't knock instructing.....it was easily the most rewarding flying I've done to date......sending someone on their first solo circuit, or solo X-country and then seeing them achieve a PPL is an experience that will make me smile for years to come.......
Last edited by Arkwright; 19th Jun 2012 at 21:32.
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1Wingnut
If the operation (as described in the operations manual) is two-crew then both crew log the time on any aircraft flown under an AOC. They are part of the crew for that operation. The crew log the hours the same as the crew of a CJ2, which is also a single-crew aircraft. A jet must be flown two-crew under EU-OPS, but there is nothing to say that a company's operations manual be written to allow or even require two crew on a small turboprop (or a piston).
Note that there are good reasons (other than satisfying clients) for flying two-crew in a King Air that would make the flight illegal single-crew: weather, duty time and MEL spring to mind.
As for answering the question: unless you are lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time for a small company which is recruiting, and willing to pay for the rating then forget going straight into GA charter. As others have said expand your experience and your contacts.
Spend all your time in airports, flying whatever anyone will let you fly without charge (para drop, ferry, tow gliders) or try to get a survey job. If you have the money do an instructor's rating (it's good to have anyway). Try to get any work with any charter company, clean aircraft if it is all that is there. If not then hang out in the bars their people frequent, the bars the GA pilots use. Get known; get known for being enthusiastic and hard-working; get known for being dependable, flexible and thorough; get known for be un-phased by problems; get known for being willing to go anywhere at no notice, as pilot or just to watch.
If the operation (as described in the operations manual) is two-crew then both crew log the time on any aircraft flown under an AOC. They are part of the crew for that operation. The crew log the hours the same as the crew of a CJ2, which is also a single-crew aircraft. A jet must be flown two-crew under EU-OPS, but there is nothing to say that a company's operations manual be written to allow or even require two crew on a small turboprop (or a piston).
Note that there are good reasons (other than satisfying clients) for flying two-crew in a King Air that would make the flight illegal single-crew: weather, duty time and MEL spring to mind.
As for answering the question: unless you are lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time for a small company which is recruiting, and willing to pay for the rating then forget going straight into GA charter. As others have said expand your experience and your contacts.
Spend all your time in airports, flying whatever anyone will let you fly without charge (para drop, ferry, tow gliders) or try to get a survey job. If you have the money do an instructor's rating (it's good to have anyway). Try to get any work with any charter company, clean aircraft if it is all that is there. If not then hang out in the bars their people frequent, the bars the GA pilots use. Get known; get known for being enthusiastic and hard-working; get known for being dependable, flexible and thorough; get known for be un-phased by problems; get known for being willing to go anywhere at no notice, as pilot or just to watch.
Last edited by Flaymy; 19th Jun 2012 at 23:08.
Flaymy got it right. If operated on JAA registration in multi crew operations; crew log as P1 and co-pilot respectically.
The C90 should prove a good experience for you. Enjoy it - hope you get the job.
The C90 should prove a good experience for you. Enjoy it - hope you get the job.
500-700 hours to get on a GLEX category job--add a zero to those numbers. There are loads of experienced, time in type guys looking for jobs.
I just went thru several hundred CVs, no one had less than 3000 hours.
GF
I just went thru several hundred CVs, no one had less than 3000 hours.
GF
Last edited by galaxy flyer; 20th Jun 2012 at 02:39.
