Piaggio Accident in Flint, Michigan
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Piaggio Accident in Flint, Michigan
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According to airport spokeswoman Pat Corfman, the incident occurred at about 9:30 a.m. on runway 1836.
"We had a general aviation aircraft divert to Flint after it lost one of its two engines," Corfman said. "It was carrying four passengers on a flight from St. Petersburg, Fla., to Wisconsin. The pilot came in too fast, lost control and flipped."
"We had a general aviation aircraft divert to Flint after it lost one of its two engines," Corfman said. "It was carrying four passengers on a flight from St. Petersburg, Fla., to Wisconsin. The pilot came in too fast, lost control and flipped."
Mutt
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Hmm, looks like the front stayed on, but the back fell off. 
Must say one thing, it appears the airframe is well built, as the people on board basically walked away and it looks like the cabin door opened normally.
Must say one thing, it appears the airframe is well built, as the people on board basically walked away and it looks like the cabin door opened normally.
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Avantair will probably be the recipient of a nice lawsuit from that one. They are pretty much known for culling from the bottom of the resume pile.
That plane has about zip asymmetrical single engine yaw...so how they (2 pilots) screwed that up is a colossal boo boo.
That plane has about zip asymmetrical single engine yaw...so how they (2 pilots) screwed that up is a colossal boo boo.
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I hate to say it, but it is easy to do if you are under allot of stress and forget the basics. It looks like they may have accidentally put the good engine in BETA after touchdown....
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I was in PIE the other day at the Avaintair Facility. I was trying to ask around, but they were being very hush hush on the matter. Employees at Avaintair do not even know who the pilots were. I am going back Saturday, I will see if I can get more info.
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It looks like they may have accidentally put the good engine in BETA after touchdown....
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When I was in Saab initial my instructor told me to try putting a single engine configured landing in reverse... I will just say you loose control and then some. We did everything we could to get that airplane back under control. You just couldn't do it. I am not one hundred percent sure that it says in the book "NO BETA with single engine landing", but it is a definite NO NO.. I guess you could say it is a limitation....
P.S. It should have definitely been in there approach briefing...
P.S. It should have definitely been in there approach briefing...
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The question is 'how much' thrust reverse you put in. Certainly some aircraft have engines slung so far off centerline that controlling asymmetrical thrust is an issue, reverse or otherwise.
Honestly I can't think that the Piaggio accident was anything but pilot error...given the engines are slung in back, close to centerline, much like a jet...and certainly if the gear design/asymmetrical thrust combination is so far out of whack, then the pilot should have just applied brakes and forgone reverser usage.
How you flip a plane is beyond me, so want to see the video.
Honestly I can't think that the Piaggio accident was anything but pilot error...given the engines are slung in back, close to centerline, much like a jet...and certainly if the gear design/asymmetrical thrust combination is so far out of whack, then the pilot should have just applied brakes and forgone reverser usage.
How you flip a plane is beyond me, so want to see the video.
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I have no knowledge of this event, or flying this the Piaggio.
I wonder to myself if the use of reverse with an operating engine, whose propeller is so close to the rudder, makes things bad, when asymmetry becomes part of the equation. The propeller wash would form a blanking area which could really reduce the rudder affect, just when it's needed most. If reverse keeps the nose light (higher thrust line), the nose wheel steering would have little affect, leaving the rudder as the primary directional control.
I was right seat in a Piper Cheyenne 2, which was landed with one feathered, and some reverse on the other side seemed perfectly fine. But, that prop is a lot farther forward than that of the Piaggio, and perhaps the Cheyenne's disturbed flow from reverse has less affect on the rudder effectivness.
I have certainly experienced a loss of control affect with the use of reverse. You cannot hold the nosewheel of a Twin Otter off any more, when you apply reverse. The relatively high thrust line should help, but the affect is still there. The reverse makes the elevator hardly affective.
I wonder if the Piaggio specifies the use of reverse after an engine failure just below V1?
I wonder to myself if the use of reverse with an operating engine, whose propeller is so close to the rudder, makes things bad, when asymmetry becomes part of the equation. The propeller wash would form a blanking area which could really reduce the rudder affect, just when it's needed most. If reverse keeps the nose light (higher thrust line), the nose wheel steering would have little affect, leaving the rudder as the primary directional control.
I was right seat in a Piper Cheyenne 2, which was landed with one feathered, and some reverse on the other side seemed perfectly fine. But, that prop is a lot farther forward than that of the Piaggio, and perhaps the Cheyenne's disturbed flow from reverse has less affect on the rudder effectivness.
I have certainly experienced a loss of control affect with the use of reverse. You cannot hold the nosewheel of a Twin Otter off any more, when you apply reverse. The relatively high thrust line should help, but the affect is still there. The reverse makes the elevator hardly affective.
I wonder if the Piaggio specifies the use of reverse after an engine failure just below V1?
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I am not a Piaggio pilot but know that although the front wing looks like a canard it is infact a wing.
There are three lifting devices on the Piaggio and all it takes is for the rear to fully stall to create a flip?
Maybe I am off track?
Pace
There are three lifting devices on the Piaggio and all it takes is for the rear to fully stall to create a flip?
Maybe I am off track?
Pace
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I just got hold of P-180 AFM (status:1992 - might not be valid anymore?) and in the emergency section it says under SE approach and landing:
...and after touching down, if necessary, apply reverse thrust slowly and cautiously.
...and after touching down, if necessary, apply reverse thrust slowly and cautiously.
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What you found is correct for single engine landing. I have 2 plus thousand hours flying these planes. The proper way is after touchdown is to come over the gate to beta and slowly use it as required but as speed slows be reducing beta but not to fast or it is kind of a sling shot accelerate. During this phase a pilot will have one rudder pretty close to the floor and if you activate the nose wheel steering without centering the rudders it will take you for a wild ride. Also the brakes are very sensitive on these planes. These are just facts and I am not saying this is what happened in this instance.