Command in midsize or FO in large?
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Command in midsize or FO in large?
If you have choose, then which would be more career-wise move.
I have flying Learjets 3 years now, and almost completely happy with it. Company is ok, pay is good, roster terrible but survivable (as usual, I presume), and now got opportunity to move on bigger planes.
The big question is, that it is very likely that next spring I will get the upgrade from right to left.
Is clever to stay on current outfit for 3-4 more years, or take now the bigger type?
So, big question - Am I more employable after I had collected 1000+ pic hours on midsize, than 1000+ cop hours in large?
I have flying Learjets 3 years now, and almost completely happy with it. Company is ok, pay is good, roster terrible but survivable (as usual, I presume), and now got opportunity to move on bigger planes.
The big question is, that it is very likely that next spring I will get the upgrade from right to left.
Is clever to stay on current outfit for 3-4 more years, or take now the bigger type?
So, big question - Am I more employable after I had collected 1000+ pic hours on midsize, than 1000+ cop hours in large?
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Undoubtedly PIC hours are more valuable to the job market than SIC ,however, the questions I would ask myself are?
i. The opportunity to go on a larger a/c is within my grasp, whilst the opportunity to get PIC is somewhere in the future & not guaranteed(unless you have in writing).
ii. Will I find myself looking outside the RHS window a year from now at the larger a/c on the apron thinking "F*%K!.....I had the opportunity to get on that a/c, but here I am still stuck on the RHS"
Just my two cents worth, Good luck either way
i. The opportunity to go on a larger a/c is within my grasp, whilst the opportunity to get PIC is somewhere in the future & not guaranteed(unless you have in writing).
ii. Will I find myself looking outside the RHS window a year from now at the larger a/c on the apron thinking "F*%K!.....I had the opportunity to get on that a/c, but here I am still stuck on the RHS"
Just my two cents worth, Good luck either way
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I think there are a couple more factors in the equation than just the size and the duty.
If your present company is stable, treats you well, pays you a fair salary on time and they want to promote your career, your colleagues are people you tend to get along with just fine, then that is worth a lot for your overall job satisfaction. It might not be the case in the other company, if they are just offering you a right hand seat in a bigger aircraft but lack in other areas.
However long-term it might be ok to sacrifice your comfort-zone, take a knock and get the experience on a heavier aircraft and then move on again if necessary.
You will have to look at all of these things to make a good choice.
If your present company is stable, treats you well, pays you a fair salary on time and they want to promote your career, your colleagues are people you tend to get along with just fine, then that is worth a lot for your overall job satisfaction. It might not be the case in the other company, if they are just offering you a right hand seat in a bigger aircraft but lack in other areas.
However long-term it might be ok to sacrifice your comfort-zone, take a knock and get the experience on a heavier aircraft and then move on again if necessary.
You will have to look at all of these things to make a good choice.
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Also consider that usually the larger aircraft = a larger paycheck. To have another type under your belt could be a big benefit in the future and you will be dual rated for your company. Lots of pro's and con's, like spinning the roulette wheel.
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I would normally say go for the P1 time, but I would consider the FO post if and only if
- it looks like a command would come up quite quickly (expansion/present Captains close to retirement etc)
- you know it to be a 'happy' aeroplane
- it is a type highly in demand eg a Global, not a G4 for example.
- you dont think your present outfit will ever get LR jets (the line of least risk to a LR LHS)
My friend and I went into biz jets at the same time; he as FO onto a LR type, me as Capt on short range. He got a very quick upgrade due to fortunate circumstances and has been earning twice what I have ever since, (not to mention a period of unemployment I had). Not that I'm complaining as I love my varied short haul flying
- it looks like a command would come up quite quickly (expansion/present Captains close to retirement etc)
- you know it to be a 'happy' aeroplane
- it is a type highly in demand eg a Global, not a G4 for example.
- you dont think your present outfit will ever get LR jets (the line of least risk to a LR LHS)
My friend and I went into biz jets at the same time; he as FO onto a LR type, me as Capt on short range. He got a very quick upgrade due to fortunate circumstances and has been earning twice what I have ever since, (not to mention a period of unemployment I had). Not that I'm complaining as I love my varied short haul flying
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Time Traveller makes some valid points.
A couple of questions I would ask myself if I was in your shoes:
What is "larger aircraft"? If its GLEX/G4/G5/7X continue reading my post. If it means Citation Sovereign/Hawker 850 etc, stop reading the rest of my post and go and get those PIC hours.
Where do I want to live / work in the future? (Do you have family? Willing to move?)
The thing is that yes, PIC time is great to have, but a type rating on an aircraft that is in demand, and more importantly - will CONTINUE to be in demand, is more important.
How many qualified Lear Captains are there in Europe? In the world? How many new Learjets (that you are qualified on) will be delivered over the next 10-15 years? How much longer will the 45/60 be manufactured? How many small cabin Captains are unemployed worldwide today? Who where the first to loose their jobs back in 2008/9? Large or small cabin pilots?
How many Learjets are there, or will there be, in expanding markets like ME, Africa and Asia? This is important as this is where we will mainly see jobs being created over the next 10-20 years....
I would say that if you get on a GLEX/G4/G5/7X now, and if you are willing and able to move outside Europe if needed in the future, you will never have to worry about having a job for the next 15-20 years.
The decision depends very much on individual circumstances and I wish you good luck in making the right one for you.
CP
A couple of questions I would ask myself if I was in your shoes:
What is "larger aircraft"? If its GLEX/G4/G5/7X continue reading my post. If it means Citation Sovereign/Hawker 850 etc, stop reading the rest of my post and go and get those PIC hours.
Where do I want to live / work in the future? (Do you have family? Willing to move?)
The thing is that yes, PIC time is great to have, but a type rating on an aircraft that is in demand, and more importantly - will CONTINUE to be in demand, is more important.
How many qualified Lear Captains are there in Europe? In the world? How many new Learjets (that you are qualified on) will be delivered over the next 10-15 years? How much longer will the 45/60 be manufactured? How many small cabin Captains are unemployed worldwide today? Who where the first to loose their jobs back in 2008/9? Large or small cabin pilots?
How many Learjets are there, or will there be, in expanding markets like ME, Africa and Asia? This is important as this is where we will mainly see jobs being created over the next 10-20 years....
I would say that if you get on a GLEX/G4/G5/7X now, and if you are willing and able to move outside Europe if needed in the future, you will never have to worry about having a job for the next 15-20 years.
The decision depends very much on individual circumstances and I wish you good luck in making the right one for you.
CP
While I was back in the Airlines, some time ago, someone told me;
"Never miss an opportunity to upgrade"
Now of course this is not as simple as it's said.
However you know the upgrade opportunity you have at hand, its here, its right now.
Passing the opportunity to upgrade now, might leave you with an missed opportunity if the Command upgrade does not come through. For what ever reason that might be.
However I do agree with other posters that the Command hours, especially within the Biz Jet industry, are more important.
Of course you also have to consider the company you would leave vs. the company you would join. If its only marginal better, then sometimes maybe its better to stay with what you have rather than switching to something that "only" seems a little better.
For what ever its worth. If the upgrade is on a nice office/bird - like the G5, 7X, BD700 - I would take whats at hand.
Good luck with your choice
"Never miss an opportunity to upgrade"
Now of course this is not as simple as it's said.
However you know the upgrade opportunity you have at hand, its here, its right now.
Passing the opportunity to upgrade now, might leave you with an missed opportunity if the Command upgrade does not come through. For what ever reason that might be.
However I do agree with other posters that the Command hours, especially within the Biz Jet industry, are more important.
Of course you also have to consider the company you would leave vs. the company you would join. If its only marginal better, then sometimes maybe its better to stay with what you have rather than switching to something that "only" seems a little better.
For what ever its worth. If the upgrade is on a nice office/bird - like the G5, 7X, BD700 - I would take whats at hand.
Good luck with your choice
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Thank you all.
I tend to agree more with the value of PIC hours and working in known enivronment and colleagues, than chasing the bluebird. At least now. 3 years is not that long time to jump the ships, eventually
I tend to agree more with the value of PIC hours and working in known enivronment and colleagues, than chasing the bluebird. At least now. 3 years is not that long time to jump the ships, eventually
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I guess you have to ask yourself a few questions !
1. what is your ultimate goal ? if you want airline you got to go for larger aircraft
2. how old are you and how much experience do you have?
3.how many hours do you fly as PIC a year. if you do 300hr or so it will take a long time to get hours to fly anything big in command.
the salary will also be an issue, i doubt you will get a command on a big biz jet having flown Lear, without sitting in the right hand seat for a while and probably get paid less as you did as PIC.
not an easy decision
good luck
1. what is your ultimate goal ? if you want airline you got to go for larger aircraft
2. how old are you and how much experience do you have?
3.how many hours do you fly as PIC a year. if you do 300hr or so it will take a long time to get hours to fly anything big in command.
the salary will also be an issue, i doubt you will get a command on a big biz jet having flown Lear, without sitting in the right hand seat for a while and probably get paid less as you did as PIC.
not an easy decision
good luck
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I was in a similar position, only I had a very new command when the recession hit and I was forced to look for another job. I found myself going right seat on a larger type. The larger type gave me much more experience in terms of routes, areas of operation and experience gained by learning from other pilots. That treated me very well in the end as I was only in the right seat for about a year and a half before I got my upgrade and hence more cash.
Staying left seat in an old job (if that had been an option) would be less well paid than I have now in the left hand seat (with a year and a half of right seat work to get here).
There really is no right or wrong answer but I know that going bigger has opened up many more opportunities for me.
Another variable to consider is look at what happened through the recession and where the growth is. Currently growth is in the larger aircraft (circa $25M+) category.
However, it is always a tricky choice and moves in this industry can be scary. Good luck with your decision.
Staying left seat in an old job (if that had been an option) would be less well paid than I have now in the left hand seat (with a year and a half of right seat work to get here).
There really is no right or wrong answer but I know that going bigger has opened up many more opportunities for me.
Another variable to consider is look at what happened through the recession and where the growth is. Currently growth is in the larger aircraft (circa $25M+) category.
However, it is always a tricky choice and moves in this industry can be scary. Good luck with your decision.
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EMB170,
1. No, I dont want to go in airliners. Variety of destinations, actual hand flying and lot more descicion making, dealing with last minute changes, etc, etc are kind of my cup of tea..
3. all of our pilots fly currently 450-500 hours/year.
1. No, I dont want to go in airliners. Variety of destinations, actual hand flying and lot more descicion making, dealing with last minute changes, etc, etc are kind of my cup of tea..
3. all of our pilots fly currently 450-500 hours/year.
Last edited by epsum; 10th Oct 2011 at 09:31.
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Company is ok
pay is good
roster terrible but survivable (as usual, I presume)
and now got opportunity to move on bigger planes.
Some guys make valid points. One earns more and job security is usually better. I made the move in the opposite direction, went off a Challi 300, was offered a L/H seat in a Global, but took the L/H seat of a Sovereign.
Altough I miss the 300 (I really loved it), there are many things in my current (and hopefully last) position that make staying an easy decision. The company operating the global went under in the meantime.
Whatever you decide, may the force be with you !
Last edited by His dudeness; 21st Sep 2011 at 09:42.
