Private Citation Mustang and multicrew

[noapilot]

Hello friends!

I have a few questions regarding the operation of an aircraft in the following scenario:

Non EASA registered aircraft but flying to EASA countries from a non European Union base.

Crew with EASA/JAA licence

Flying private under no AOC

Airplane is a single pilot Cessna Citation Mustang

My questions:

Do I have to meet EU-OPS requirements even if I fly private?
Could a crew member log P2 time flying private?
In case we want to operate the airplane multicrew, do we need to fly under AOC/EU-OPS and register the airplane in EASA-land?

Thank you in advance!

Regards

[Trim Stab]

Do I have to meet EU-OPS requirements even if I fly private?

No

Could a crew member log P2 time flying private?

Yes, as long as both pilots hold MCC qualification

In case we want to operate the airplane multicrew, do we need to fly under AOC/EU-OPS and register the airplane in EASA-land?

No

[bizjet inmate]

Trim Stab absolutley correct

[Don Coyote]

LASORS 2010 Section A Appendix B (Page 42) has advice on this and it would appear that you cannot be credited with PICUS, P1 U/S or P2.

LASORS can be found at

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/srg_lts...Bookmarked.pdf

[bizjet inmate]

Lasors cover a JAA registered aircraft....no?.....I was under belief this aircraft was not EU/JAA so if Yank registered they can

[Don Coyote]

LASORS is compiled by CAA Licensing & Trainings Standards for the guidance of pilots and those intending to become pilots. It is arranged into two sections:
Section 1 – “Licensing, Administration, and Standardisation” (LAS) provides the CAA’s policy and guidance material for initial and continuing compliance with the requirements for UK flight crew licences and associated ratings, qualifications and authorisations.

So CAA rules for UK/JAA licenses not aircraft; I assume the same would apply to all JAA licenses.

[Don Coyote]

That would depend if equipment was fitted as per

plus additional equipment as specified in the Kinds of Operations Equipment List (KOEL) contained in the Limitations Section of the FAA approved Airplane Flight Manual

[noapilot]

P2 would appear to be log-able (is there such a word?) if the certification is followed. However I would check with the licensing authority if they will accept this; I have had issues with exactly this type of thing in the past.

Oh yes, I have had issues of this type and that is why I was asking questions.

Thank you guys!

[Trim Stab]

P2 would appear to be log-able (is there such a word?) if the certification is followed.

As I said earlier, P2 can be logged ONLY if both crew hold MCC ratings (plus CPL, IR/ME and C510 rating). If these conditions are not met, the person in the RHS is a passenger.

[BillieBob]

If flying on a JAA licence then JAA licence privileges apply, irrespective of the state of registry of the aeroplane.

JAR-FCL1.001 Definitions and Abbreviations

Co-pilot:
“Co-pilot” means a pilot operating other than as pilot-in-command, an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the list of types of aeroplanes (see Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 1.220) or the type certification of the aircraft, or the operational regulations under which the flight is conducted, but excluding a pilot who is on board the aircraft for the sole purpose of receiving flight instruction for a licence or rating.

On a private flight, there are no operational regulations (e.g. an AOC) that require two pilots and, therefore, co-pilot flight time may not be claimed in an aircraft that is not otherwise designated as multi-pilot. The EASA Class and Type Rating list designates the C510 as single pilot which is, for licensing purposes, the end of the story. Whilst there is nothing to stop a private SPA from being operated with two pilots, the second may only claim the flight time as SNY.

You may enter the flight in your logbook in any way you like, it is after all your personal record, but the time will not be accepted as 'multi-pilot' towards the experience requirements for issue of, for example, an ATPL.

[muntisk]

RA-390

Had same question with Premier, and this was answer from easa
With reference to your messages mentioned below and after careful consideration of all provided facts the Agency informs you as follows: On the “List of Aeroplanes - Class and Type Ratings and Endorsement list” the RA390 is classified as a ME SPA with HPA conditions. So the only type rating training on the RA390 a pilot can do according to JAR-FCL is a single pilot TR. Only after a proficiency-check in MP operations the pilot is allowed to fly multi crew. On a SPA there is only one pilot who can log the flight time. If there is a second pilot he or she has to fulfill a function in accordance with the definition in JAR-FCL1.001 to be considered as a flight-crew member. The cross crediting of the IR part of a type or class rating proficiency check is defined differently for SP ME single pilot and SP ME multi pilot operation. The obligation for multi-crew operation on SPAs is stated in EU-OPS 1.940. As the operation you described in your email is not submitted to EU-OPS you could officially attribute a function to the second pilot. A possibility to do this is to approve a special operation to the holder of the RA390 under national law. This special operation should comprise all obligations from EU-OPS that concern flight crew. This would support the owner and the pilots as it is of course safer to operate the RA390 in multi-pilot operations than it would be in single pilot operations. Legal references: · EASA/JAA “List of Aeroplanes - Class and Type Ratings and Endorsement list” http://easa.europa.eu/certification/flight-standards/OEB-general-typeratings-list-licence-endorsement-list.php· JAR-FCL 1.240(a) (1) and (2) distinguish between TRs for single- and multi-pilot aeroplanes. · JAR-FCL 1.251 regulates the conditions for type, class ratings for single pilot high performance aeroplanes. · Appendix 3 to JAR-FCL 1.240 regulates that after a Proficiency check in MP operations according to JAR-OPS the TR shall be restricted to MP operation. · JAR-FCL 1.001 defines the function of a copilot · Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 1:246 Cross-crediting of the IR part of a type or class rating proficiency check · EU-OPS 1.940 (b) defines the minimum flight crew for operations under IFR or at night. After the entry into force of the new EU operational requirements the circumstances should be re-evaluated.

[Trim Stab]

On a private flight, there are no operational regulations (e.g. an AOC) that require two pilots and, therefore, co-pilot flight time may not be claimed in an aircraft that is not otherwise designated as multi-pilot. The EASA Class and Type Rating list designates the C510 as single pilot which is, for licensing purposes, the end of the story. Whilst there is nothing to stop a private SPA from being operated with two pilots, the second may only claim the flight time as SNY.

So all the private Citations flying around with two crew are illegal and uninsured then, unless the captain holds IR/ME Single-Pilot rating?

The C510 (and C525, TBM850, PC12, Phenom 100 & 300) are all certified for twin crew operations, but have a dispensation to be flown single-pilot. They can thus be flown EITHER by a single pilot who holds IR/MESP plus the rating plus CPL/PPL, OR they can be flown by two-pilots who have MCC rating (and thus by definition CPL), with IRME and type-rating. If the latter, both pilots log time as P1 and P2. It has nothing to do with whether the aircraft is being operated on an AOC.

[BillieBob]

So all the private Citations flying around with two crew are illegal and uninsured then, unless the captain holds IR/ME Single-Pilot rating?

I didn't say that, I simply stated the position regarding licensing and the claiming of multi-pilot experience which, incidentally, is wholly supported by the response from EASA.

[Gulfstreamaviator]

Camel TOW....

I had the same chat with UK CAA many years ago....and was told to shut up and get on with it...as they were not prepared to put in writing anything that might be used against them in the future.....

Nothing changes...

Based in Dubai, so your name is very apt.... glf

[windypops]

I've asked the CAA almost exactly the same question. Still waiting.........

[silverknapper]

It really would help if you'd tell us the registry of the aircraft and the crew licences.

[Trim Stab]

I'm just thinking down the line when I look to move to another job, and lets say the advert is for 1,500 hours, whether I can count all my hours or just the legs which I was "pilot flying" ie basically half of what is currently in my logbook.

Any sensible employer would consider all your hours as valid experience in that situation.

If you use an electronic logbook, you can log everything, then set up filters according to what you wish to count. So you could filter (for example) on "hours valid towards ATPL", and have another filter for "hours relative to employment".