Traps for a newbie
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Traps for a newbie
Apologies for posting under a probationary and new nom de guerre. I am a regular poster but wish to remain anonymous for many reasons.
a colleague has recently asked me to leave my current secure airline job to come along to fly a very nice business jet. Now obviously there are many issues of due diligance that i am aware of and need to check out for my self.
To go to the biz -jet i would need a significant salary increase which has been implied but not promised.
There may be command issues. In my current airline i would probably be up for command in less than 2 years. Personally i'm not fussed how many bars i have at the moment. as an f/o in the biz jet i should earn the same as a skipper in my current airline, and to be honest with you, whilst i love my job, all that matters to me is that i can clothe/house/feed/entertain/etc my wife and child. In the biz jet, i have no idea what time to command is, and am i hamstringing myself going to a biz jet pre command?
I will not pay for my type rating, so if that issue is discussed i'll walk away (again in a secure airline job so don't need to leave, but flying a heavy long range biz jet should be fun).
What traps should i look out for, what questions should i ask, what should i have in writing.
Like i said i'm not a bleary eyed bushy tailed newbie to aviation, but corporate is a black art to me and any advice really is appreciated.
a colleague has recently asked me to leave my current secure airline job to come along to fly a very nice business jet. Now obviously there are many issues of due diligance that i am aware of and need to check out for my self.
To go to the biz -jet i would need a significant salary increase which has been implied but not promised.
There may be command issues. In my current airline i would probably be up for command in less than 2 years. Personally i'm not fussed how many bars i have at the moment. as an f/o in the biz jet i should earn the same as a skipper in my current airline, and to be honest with you, whilst i love my job, all that matters to me is that i can clothe/house/feed/entertain/etc my wife and child. In the biz jet, i have no idea what time to command is, and am i hamstringing myself going to a biz jet pre command?
I will not pay for my type rating, so if that issue is discussed i'll walk away (again in a secure airline job so don't need to leave, but flying a heavy long range biz jet should be fun).
What traps should i look out for, what questions should i ask, what should i have in writing.
Like i said i'm not a bleary eyed bushy tailed newbie to aviation, but corporate is a black art to me and any advice really is appreciated.
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Well as the happy owner of a G550, I can offer some suggestions to you:
1. Is the aircraft to be flown a corporate operation? Or as in our case the private transportation of a family?
2. If it is corporate, you'll want to know the corporate history, its position in its industry. And if it is a publicly held corporation, be sure to get a copy of their Annual Report, at least two or three years back. Have the reports analyzed by a stock broker or financial planner to assess the stability/health and prospects of the company.
3. If it is a family owned airplane, things are murkier. If this airplane is the first owned and operated by the family, it should be fair game to ask if they have a comprehensive understanding of what the costs to own and operate the thing really are. Family owned airplanes have a notoriously short ownership lifespan at least in the U.S.
4. Accession to command? When the guy in the left seat dies, develops an incurable disease, or finds a better job. Usually no way to predict.
5. Things to get in writing? Explicit details of all benefits proferred.
There really aren't any guarantees. So you have to determine internally whether the security of your airline job outweighs the fun of flying a long range bizjet.
You'll likely have less of a schedule and less predictable days off than the airline. And likely, you won't see many multi-leg days, and will end up sitting a LOT more than at the airline. Our crew flew 495 hours in the last 12 months, more international than domestic. They slept away from home a total of 66 nights. It would have been more, but if we're going someplace and plan to stay more than a week, we often send the airplane home and have them come fetch us when we're ready to go. This costs us a fair bit more, but truly the cost isn't significant, and it seems to make our crew happy.
We have a flight attendant/concierge who handles things like lodging, catering and ground transportation for us and she's very, very good at it. Be aware that this is a duty that often lands on the F/O on a bizjet.
Also, unless you're entering a larger than one aircraft flight department the odds are very high that you'll end up doing most of the flight planning, some of the trip planning, and most of the insuring the airplane is ready to go. We don't impose those duties on our crew, but many places do. Our crew does their own trip planning/permitting/etc for all domestic and some international, but uses a planning service when we're going places they aren't familiar/comfortable with.
I hope this helps some.
Regards,
Marcus
1. Is the aircraft to be flown a corporate operation? Or as in our case the private transportation of a family?
2. If it is corporate, you'll want to know the corporate history, its position in its industry. And if it is a publicly held corporation, be sure to get a copy of their Annual Report, at least two or three years back. Have the reports analyzed by a stock broker or financial planner to assess the stability/health and prospects of the company.
3. If it is a family owned airplane, things are murkier. If this airplane is the first owned and operated by the family, it should be fair game to ask if they have a comprehensive understanding of what the costs to own and operate the thing really are. Family owned airplanes have a notoriously short ownership lifespan at least in the U.S.
4. Accession to command? When the guy in the left seat dies, develops an incurable disease, or finds a better job. Usually no way to predict.
5. Things to get in writing? Explicit details of all benefits proferred.
There really aren't any guarantees. So you have to determine internally whether the security of your airline job outweighs the fun of flying a long range bizjet.
You'll likely have less of a schedule and less predictable days off than the airline. And likely, you won't see many multi-leg days, and will end up sitting a LOT more than at the airline. Our crew flew 495 hours in the last 12 months, more international than domestic. They slept away from home a total of 66 nights. It would have been more, but if we're going someplace and plan to stay more than a week, we often send the airplane home and have them come fetch us when we're ready to go. This costs us a fair bit more, but truly the cost isn't significant, and it seems to make our crew happy.
We have a flight attendant/concierge who handles things like lodging, catering and ground transportation for us and she's very, very good at it. Be aware that this is a duty that often lands on the F/O on a bizjet.
Also, unless you're entering a larger than one aircraft flight department the odds are very high that you'll end up doing most of the flight planning, some of the trip planning, and most of the insuring the airplane is ready to go. We don't impose those duties on our crew, but many places do. Our crew does their own trip planning/permitting/etc for all domestic and some international, but uses a planning service when we're going places they aren't familiar/comfortable with.
I hope this helps some.
Regards,
Marcus
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Very interesting post Marcus. All I have to add is that few owners are as sympathetic to their crew's happiness, so I hope you will give me a shout when you need a new crew member for your G550!
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Thanks for the kind words. Whether on a personal level, or as a corporation, treating your flight crew well only makes sense. Do I want to be flung through the sky in an aluminum tube flow by people who are unhappy, tired or irritated? No, I do not. Do I want to pay the recruitment, training and background checking costs of recruiting new crew members because I annoyed mine into leaving us? Nope. Not much.
There's a hundred other reasons to treat flight crew as professionals, and it all comes down to this: the work you do is enormously complex, requires training, experience, judgment and great personal skills (CRM). Just as I cannot imagine asking a surgeon to sharpen his own scalpels, it is equally incomprehensible to me that I often see flight crew cleaning airplanes, handling catering and other non-flying related duties.
But for me, the overarching reason to do so, is one that I've been told by some is frivolous, silly and/or irrelevant. My little granddaughter would have no respect for me whatsoever if I were unkind to the people who do so much to make our lives easier. She is sweet, compassionate and gentle and I want to make sure she stays that way the rest of her life. I do not want her to see me, ever, treating any one with anything but respect and kindness.
I know that probably makes me an oddity, but I don't really care. If I'm running off at the mouth, I do apologize. I hope you all get treated well.
Regards,
Marcus
There's a hundred other reasons to treat flight crew as professionals, and it all comes down to this: the work you do is enormously complex, requires training, experience, judgment and great personal skills (CRM). Just as I cannot imagine asking a surgeon to sharpen his own scalpels, it is equally incomprehensible to me that I often see flight crew cleaning airplanes, handling catering and other non-flying related duties.
But for me, the overarching reason to do so, is one that I've been told by some is frivolous, silly and/or irrelevant. My little granddaughter would have no respect for me whatsoever if I were unkind to the people who do so much to make our lives easier. She is sweet, compassionate and gentle and I want to make sure she stays that way the rest of her life. I do not want her to see me, ever, treating any one with anything but respect and kindness.
I know that probably makes me an oddity, but I don't really care. If I'm running off at the mouth, I do apologize. I hope you all get treated well.
Regards,
Marcus
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thank you for a very detailed reply marcus.
Definitely some very good food for thought and definitely some questions i hadn't thought of asking. especially the accounts for the last few years of the employer. (currently working for a large profitable airline so the finances aren't so much of a worry).
On an aside, could anyone give me a ball park average salary figure for a UK based f/o on a heavy corporate jet. I've spent a large portion of the morning looking and not surprisingly the only answer i seem to be able to find is "competitative"
I know what i would need to be paid in order to leave my current employer, but i have no idea if that figure is achievable.
Obviously this potential employer will offer me what they want to pay, but it's best to go in to any negotiations with the best info available.
And again thank you for the invaluable input marcus.
Definitely some very good food for thought and definitely some questions i hadn't thought of asking. especially the accounts for the last few years of the employer. (currently working for a large profitable airline so the finances aren't so much of a worry).
On an aside, could anyone give me a ball park average salary figure for a UK based f/o on a heavy corporate jet. I've spent a large portion of the morning looking and not surprisingly the only answer i seem to be able to find is "competitative"
I know what i would need to be paid in order to leave my current employer, but i have no idea if that figure is achievable.
Obviously this potential employer will offer me what they want to pay, but it's best to go in to any negotiations with the best info available.
And again thank you for the invaluable input marcus.
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Not sure about UK but US 2010 Large/Very Large Jet F/O average annual salaries dependent on type flown: Low $71K, High $91K. G550 $88K. This according to Professional Pilot Magazine.
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Whether on a personal level, or as a corporation, treating your flight crew well only makes sense.
Meanwhile...I would like to join Chicken Leg in the pledge to do a good job next time you will be looking to recruit!
PZ
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As has already been mentioned, take some time to do your research, especially if the person who is inviting you to fly the jet is new to the owner/company as well. There are good owners and bad owners. Similarly there are good companies and bad companies.
In my experience some bizjet companies can have ´interesting´ interpretations of the rules they are supposed to be sticking to eg. maintenance, ftls etc. If you are working under an AOC you may have to learn to fight some battles in some of these areas, though good captains should back you up.
I know it might sound petty, but keep evidence of rosters promised, training offered etc.
There is definitely a balance to be struck between being flexible as a pilot/employee and not allowing yourself to be walked over. Bizjets often rely on flexibility of crew and its important to try and provide that flexibility, but you also have to know where to draw the line.
The bizjet world can be a pretty hazy one, but on the plus side the flying side of it can be fantastically varied and you should get to spend time in some interesting places.
In my experience some bizjet companies can have ´interesting´ interpretations of the rules they are supposed to be sticking to eg. maintenance, ftls etc. If you are working under an AOC you may have to learn to fight some battles in some of these areas, though good captains should back you up.
I know it might sound petty, but keep evidence of rosters promised, training offered etc.
There is definitely a balance to be struck between being flexible as a pilot/employee and not allowing yourself to be walked over. Bizjets often rely on flexibility of crew and its important to try and provide that flexibility, but you also have to know where to draw the line.
The bizjet world can be a pretty hazy one, but on the plus side the flying side of it can be fantastically varied and you should get to spend time in some interesting places.
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The trap is the owner telling you what you want to hear and now that you don't have any union representation, any guarantee of a 401k match, or pay raises, or schedule..that you will probably be led down the garden path.
All things considered the trap of moving from airlines to corporate is thinking that your getting a better deal, and you might, but realizing that nothing is set in stone, and now you worry...about the company keeping the plane, whether the company is profitable, whether the chief pilot likes you tomorrow, whether the wife of the owner is pissed at what you said at the Xmas party.
You go to corporate to run your own show, not be a robot, not be on some set schedule, not have to be told what to do your whole aviation career, and to actually touch the controls and make big boy decisions...not looking into a book or making phone calls for the answers.
The trap, in my book is thinking your getting stability in corporate, when it's anything but the truth..
The airlines might suck in so many ways, but if you have bills to pay, that's where you go, at a big price, but stability is with a company that is in the business to fly, not a company constantly evaluating whether they should keep the plane.
You got to corporate because of your personality and what you want out aviation..if you just want a paycheck, you stay with the airlines.
All things considered the trap of moving from airlines to corporate is thinking that your getting a better deal, and you might, but realizing that nothing is set in stone, and now you worry...about the company keeping the plane, whether the company is profitable, whether the chief pilot likes you tomorrow, whether the wife of the owner is pissed at what you said at the Xmas party.
You go to corporate to run your own show, not be a robot, not be on some set schedule, not have to be told what to do your whole aviation career, and to actually touch the controls and make big boy decisions...not looking into a book or making phone calls for the answers.
The trap, in my book is thinking your getting stability in corporate, when it's anything but the truth..
The airlines might suck in so many ways, but if you have bills to pay, that's where you go, at a big price, but stability is with a company that is in the business to fly, not a company constantly evaluating whether they should keep the plane.
You got to corporate because of your personality and what you want out aviation..if you just want a paycheck, you stay with the airlines.
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When we hired our pilots we sat down with our attorneys and developed an employment agreement that binds US, not them to specific performance of the things we offered them when we offered the job. Because we are a family operation, and not a corporation, I wanted to be able to offer our crew both good benefits, and peace of mind.
Thus they have a "Defined Benefit" retirement package that vested at the 12 month mark. The payout is indexed by years of service and maxes out at the 10th year of service (as a percentage of their salaries).
Their other benefits are pretty standard: Health/Dental/Vision insurance (we use a Benefit Coordination Company to manage this). Short and Long Term Disability Insurance. And Life Insurance, of course, without Aviation Exclusion clauses.
Though we operate under 14 CFR 91, we did design into our Employment Agreement duty time and flight time limits that are a bit more restrictive than 14 CFR 121. On flights over 10 hours we carry a third pilot on board, and assure that everybody gets fed and rested.
Crew meals are provided from the same catering sources that take care of our airplane. I assume that is pretty standard, but I noticed a GIII crew that was eating sandwiches from a brown paper bag. That didn't seem exactly appropriate.
I want to keep these guys on board for at least the next 20 years. The Mayo Clinic says I'll probably live that long
There is simply no reason why a corporation should not offer its pilots benefits and QOL things commensurate with what the executives they are flying receive. As you said, and I think I remarked earlier, privately owned bizjets are another story. We wanted to do it right, and in a way that we could be proud of, but many other owners I know do treat their crews hideously.
What all of this devolves to is simple: Be absolutely, unconditionally certain what you're getting yourself into before you jump.
Thus they have a "Defined Benefit" retirement package that vested at the 12 month mark. The payout is indexed by years of service and maxes out at the 10th year of service (as a percentage of their salaries).
Their other benefits are pretty standard: Health/Dental/Vision insurance (we use a Benefit Coordination Company to manage this). Short and Long Term Disability Insurance. And Life Insurance, of course, without Aviation Exclusion clauses.
Though we operate under 14 CFR 91, we did design into our Employment Agreement duty time and flight time limits that are a bit more restrictive than 14 CFR 121. On flights over 10 hours we carry a third pilot on board, and assure that everybody gets fed and rested.
Crew meals are provided from the same catering sources that take care of our airplane. I assume that is pretty standard, but I noticed a GIII crew that was eating sandwiches from a brown paper bag. That didn't seem exactly appropriate.
I want to keep these guys on board for at least the next 20 years. The Mayo Clinic says I'll probably live that long
There is simply no reason why a corporation should not offer its pilots benefits and QOL things commensurate with what the executives they are flying receive. As you said, and I think I remarked earlier, privately owned bizjets are another story. We wanted to do it right, and in a way that we could be proud of, but many other owners I know do treat their crews hideously.
What all of this devolves to is simple: Be absolutely, unconditionally certain what you're getting yourself into before you jump.
