Would you hire a Sim Instructor?
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Would you hire a Sim Instructor?
How important is recency when considering hiring for a corporate operation?
If a pilot was suitably experienced with plenty of Jet and Jet P1, would the fact that she was currently working as a sim instructor be a problem?
A friend at my airline flying the E145 is considering becoming a sim instructor on a different type for quality of life reasons but ultimately would want to fly again, is she dooming herself to be unemployable because she won't have recent actual flight experience?
If a pilot was suitably experienced with plenty of Jet and Jet P1, would the fact that she was currently working as a sim instructor be a problem?
A friend at my airline flying the E145 is considering becoming a sim instructor on a different type for quality of life reasons but ultimately would want to fly again, is she dooming herself to be unemployable because she won't have recent actual flight experience?
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No, actually we would not. If we were to hire again for our G550 we would be looking for ex-military with experience in the aircraft, and recency of experience within 90 days. Were we to consider a civilian trained pilot, we would add 2000 hours to the total time we were looking for. We would not consider sim instructors, people with TRs but no or little time in the aircraft, and would not consider anyone with 121 experience within the past two years.
Depends on the sim instructor.
If she continues to fly aircraft occasionally, keeps all her skills and ratings current, and flies the sim as much as possible (don't get much handling practice sitting in the back) and in a couple years tries to get a flying job, I would consider her relevant experience from a couple years ago as just that.
If on the other hand she stops flying altogether and just teaches sim for 5 years, doing a ride every year or two to keep her ratings, her long forgotten experience will likely be counted as just that.
If she continues to fly aircraft occasionally, keeps all her skills and ratings current, and flies the sim as much as possible (don't get much handling practice sitting in the back) and in a couple years tries to get a flying job, I would consider her relevant experience from a couple years ago as just that.
If on the other hand she stops flying altogether and just teaches sim for 5 years, doing a ride every year or two to keep her ratings, her long forgotten experience will likely be counted as just that.
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It depends on who's hiring...the idiocy in hiring these days knows no bounds...
One operator hires non experienced buddies and pals...another hires current typed people who have zip flying experience...another hires someone with no experience in type recognizing that two weeks of school hardly trumps 20 years of flying experience.
Anyone who teaches the stuff is worth taking a look at.
One operator hires non experienced buddies and pals...another hires current typed people who have zip flying experience...another hires someone with no experience in type recognizing that two weeks of school hardly trumps 20 years of flying experience.
Anyone who teaches the stuff is worth taking a look at.
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Marcus 550
I very seldomly reply to any of this kind of threads, but now I would like to.
While Marcus of course bases his opinion on his experience, so do I.
It all depends on the person.
As he sees it ,the ex-military backround is almost a must.
BUT I see it as a big maybe.
The military trained guys generally speaking do know how to fly.
No question about it.
But there are more to operating modern biz jet with high profile clientele than just the flying. It is not a one man show.
While Marcus of course bases his opinion on his experience, so do I.
It all depends on the person.
As he sees it ,the ex-military backround is almost a must.
BUT I see it as a big maybe.
The military trained guys generally speaking do know how to fly.
No question about it.
But there are more to operating modern biz jet with high profile clientele than just the flying. It is not a one man show.
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And there you have, in a nutshell and just a few answers, the whole problem: there is no system these days in hiring pilots for corporate operations.
Mostly when it's left up to the chief pilot or head of operations to find a pilot, we will tend to gravitate towards what we know and have common frames of reference with. Military-trained guys will tend towards their peers, as they understand where these guys are coming from and have respect for the kind of tough selection process flying soldiers went through upon their initial training.
In the same spirit, airline types will beget airline types, air-taxi pilots will choose their own, etc... at nauseam.
As has been riqhtly pointed out, there is more to most corporate jobs than just the flying, so attitude and common sense are prime assets when choosing a new cockpit-mate. On the other hand, a great can-do attitude and willingness to go the extra mile, when associated with insufficient airmanship and lacking skills is a recipe for disaster!
So there is really nothing to replace a thorough selection process when choosing your new hires: spend the money for a sim ride! A selection sim-session will tell you about your candidates skills, communication abilities and much more!
My main point is this, however: consider the good of the operation in a larger sense and on a longer term than just the next hire: on a typical 3 or 4-man ops to cover a private airplane, the MIX of pilots is very important. Having guys with all the same background and experience level might seem a convenient idea, but will it really fit the flight department and the customer over time?
In our ops I have been trying to make the point that we need to mix up age-groups, backgrounds, experience levels and even cultures and attitudes a bit so that the ops will benefit: We currently have an ex-airline type with 10 years of corporate, Europe-trained. A US-trained flight instructor turned corporate who has been with the customer the longest; an ex-fighter-jock and field-grade officer who left the military in his early 40s and is now punching his ticket to get his ATP hours and 2-man experience. As we are mostly all the same age, I'm now pushing for a young-ish co-pilot with possibly a strong SOP background who wants to learn about the service we provide in corporate and who will be happy to stay in the right seat 4-5 years.
But for sure the most important thing is to screen the guy/gal thoroughly before hiring: we will get more and better info, and the candidate will feel we take him/her and the position seriously.
my 2 cents...
(oh, and BTW a few years ago we hired a Savannah-based sim instructor on an African based G5 operation, and it was an unmitigated disasters... but a single instance....)
Mostly when it's left up to the chief pilot or head of operations to find a pilot, we will tend to gravitate towards what we know and have common frames of reference with. Military-trained guys will tend towards their peers, as they understand where these guys are coming from and have respect for the kind of tough selection process flying soldiers went through upon their initial training.
In the same spirit, airline types will beget airline types, air-taxi pilots will choose their own, etc... at nauseam.
As has been riqhtly pointed out, there is more to most corporate jobs than just the flying, so attitude and common sense are prime assets when choosing a new cockpit-mate. On the other hand, a great can-do attitude and willingness to go the extra mile, when associated with insufficient airmanship and lacking skills is a recipe for disaster!
So there is really nothing to replace a thorough selection process when choosing your new hires: spend the money for a sim ride! A selection sim-session will tell you about your candidates skills, communication abilities and much more!
My main point is this, however: consider the good of the operation in a larger sense and on a longer term than just the next hire: on a typical 3 or 4-man ops to cover a private airplane, the MIX of pilots is very important. Having guys with all the same background and experience level might seem a convenient idea, but will it really fit the flight department and the customer over time?
In our ops I have been trying to make the point that we need to mix up age-groups, backgrounds, experience levels and even cultures and attitudes a bit so that the ops will benefit: We currently have an ex-airline type with 10 years of corporate, Europe-trained. A US-trained flight instructor turned corporate who has been with the customer the longest; an ex-fighter-jock and field-grade officer who left the military in his early 40s and is now punching his ticket to get his ATP hours and 2-man experience. As we are mostly all the same age, I'm now pushing for a young-ish co-pilot with possibly a strong SOP background who wants to learn about the service we provide in corporate and who will be happy to stay in the right seat 4-5 years.
But for sure the most important thing is to screen the guy/gal thoroughly before hiring: we will get more and better info, and the candidate will feel we take him/her and the position seriously.
my 2 cents...
(oh, and BTW a few years ago we hired a Savannah-based sim instructor on an African based G5 operation, and it was an unmitigated disasters... but a single instance....)
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I'll just add this... many instructors go on to fly for training organizations' clients. If you have the chief pilot in the classroom for one or two weeks and they're impressed with the knowledge and performance of the instructor... and provided the instructor has a reasonable flying background prior to becoming an instructor... then the instructor is in a prime position to attract an offer of employment.. This is the bane of management of many of the training centers. It takes approx 6 months to get an instructor trained and a full year before they have really mastered the work... at least in the case of the best training organizations... it's a problem that they have to live with that maybe a year later the instructor is tempted away to fly for one of the clients.
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I am totally with Aslak
I have never employed an ex military person, either as a pilot or in ground ops who has the faintest clue about commercial operations. Without doubt most are brilliant pilots but when it comes to operating in the GA enviroment and it comes to decision making time they just want to pass it down the line of command. Problem comes when there is no line of command. The worst offenders are senior NCO's. they seem to have a huge chip on their shoulders that make them almost impossible to employ. These NCO's have developed a habit of saying the word Sir sound like an insult which is very off putting to clients. I know certain fight departments prefer ex military people but I would hazard a guess they are not commercialy based. I guess the reason why they employ ex military is that they are ex themselves and need to re-create their former glory days without the irritation of having to work with civilians.
With the MOD cuts there will be a lot of ex military guys looking for jobs. They need to do a lot of work to de-militarise themselves to become employable.
I have never employed an ex military person, either as a pilot or in ground ops who has the faintest clue about commercial operations. Without doubt most are brilliant pilots but when it comes to operating in the GA enviroment and it comes to decision making time they just want to pass it down the line of command. Problem comes when there is no line of command. The worst offenders are senior NCO's. they seem to have a huge chip on their shoulders that make them almost impossible to employ. These NCO's have developed a habit of saying the word Sir sound like an insult which is very off putting to clients. I know certain fight departments prefer ex military people but I would hazard a guess they are not commercialy based. I guess the reason why they employ ex military is that they are ex themselves and need to re-create their former glory days without the irritation of having to work with civilians.
With the MOD cuts there will be a lot of ex military guys looking for jobs. They need to do a lot of work to de-militarise themselves to become employable.
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Amazing, but what a pretty narrow-minded vision of military pilots! Most of them can be proud of their career but I assume they won't leave with their medals on their bedside table. I respect your fears but don't forget that most of them have been selected for their adaptation skills. Adaptation to any situation or any change in their lives as well. You're right when you say that the switch to civil aviation will request big efforts. But hire a pilot with a military background and you will benefit his huge experience, and have somebody totally new in civil aviation willing to learn a new job, not referring to the SOP's of his previous employer. Thus you will be able to reshape his knowledge at your convenience. I don't think there is an ideal background but a mix seems to be an interesting solution.
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Flycircus
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Hello!
Huge experience? Here in Germany, the budget allows them to fly 70 or 80 hours per year. I fly only part-time but still do 300 to 400 hours per year. So after twenty years on the job, who has more flying experience? And not in a super-overpowered fighter inside some reserved airspace practising dogfights and weapons delivery, but in exactly the type that we use to carry our passengers in.
But you are right, it is all about adaptation skills. Over the years, I have met (and flown with) a number of ex-militay pilots and found out, that obviously sometimes these skills can degrade with time... The ones that can adapt were both excellent pilots (even with only 70 hours per year
) and excellent colleagues. But the not-so-well adapted still made good pilots, but horrible teamworkers. And this is an absolute no-go in business aviation! In our world, even a highly decorated superhero needs to be able to pick up the little vacuum cleaner and crawl through the cabin on his knees to clean the mess that was left by the passengers. The ones that are too proud to do that better don't apply for the job.
And regarding the original questions: I would much prefer to fly with an experienced sim-instructor than with one of those freelancers who fly just enough hours beside their non-flying job to keep their license valid!
Happy landings,
max
...and you will benefit his huge experience...
But you are right, it is all about adaptation skills. Over the years, I have met (and flown with) a number of ex-militay pilots and found out, that obviously sometimes these skills can degrade with time... The ones that can adapt were both excellent pilots (even with only 70 hours per year
) and excellent colleagues. But the not-so-well adapted still made good pilots, but horrible teamworkers. And this is an absolute no-go in business aviation! In our world, even a highly decorated superhero needs to be able to pick up the little vacuum cleaner and crawl through the cabin on his knees to clean the mess that was left by the passengers. The ones that are too proud to do that better don't apply for the job.And regarding the original questions: I would much prefer to fly with an experienced sim-instructor than with one of those freelancers who fly just enough hours beside their non-flying job to keep their license valid!
Happy landings,
max
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Interesting responses. When I responded my remarks were rather "off-the-cuff" and came across rather harsher than I intended. I will take this opportunity to make a more measured, and thoughtful response.
Both of our pilots averaged about 400 hours per year while in the military. Both had additional, well documented hours flown privately while they were on active duty as military aviators. Our captain had about 800 civilian hours in the G450/550 after he left the military. Both of our pilots worked in two man cockpit aircraft their entire post-UPT military career.
Ideally, were I ever to hire again (gawd I hope not) I would want to find people like our existing crew whose aviation experience and training began in the military, and who spent their time in the military flying transport aircraft (in our case one guy spent a lot of time in the C-37/VC-37B, and the other was a C-17 pilot who had military qual as a C-37B pilot, but somewhat limited experience. He too had flown the 550 after leaving the service.
Why? I think that the cockpit discipline, CRM, and flying skills I see in them are largely a result of the way they were trained, I feel comfortable with it and would, had I to find another pilot, look for this same model.
Would I hire a sim instructor? I don't know. I guess it would have to be on a case by case basis, but in reality, our flight department would probably never advertise an opening, but would seek candidates from among people well known to my pilots and trusted by them. We pay well enough that I think we could probably cherry-pick without much difficulty.
The snarky remark about 121 experience related to the large number of furloughed and/or moonlighting airline pilots who've offered there services to us if only we'd pay for their TR in the airplane (not going to happen).
Anyhow...we're very happy with our crew and how they operate our airplane and care for our family. Someone remarked about flying "high value executives" and that military pilots lacked that experience/skill set. To which I say GOOD! I don't want or need a concierge, a lackey or a servant. I need an insanely professional flight crew that's focused on one thing. The safe operation of our aircraft.
And that, happily, is what I've got.
Both of our pilots averaged about 400 hours per year while in the military. Both had additional, well documented hours flown privately while they were on active duty as military aviators. Our captain had about 800 civilian hours in the G450/550 after he left the military. Both of our pilots worked in two man cockpit aircraft their entire post-UPT military career.
Ideally, were I ever to hire again (gawd I hope not) I would want to find people like our existing crew whose aviation experience and training began in the military, and who spent their time in the military flying transport aircraft (in our case one guy spent a lot of time in the C-37/VC-37B, and the other was a C-17 pilot who had military qual as a C-37B pilot, but somewhat limited experience. He too had flown the 550 after leaving the service.
Why? I think that the cockpit discipline, CRM, and flying skills I see in them are largely a result of the way they were trained, I feel comfortable with it and would, had I to find another pilot, look for this same model.
Would I hire a sim instructor? I don't know. I guess it would have to be on a case by case basis, but in reality, our flight department would probably never advertise an opening, but would seek candidates from among people well known to my pilots and trusted by them. We pay well enough that I think we could probably cherry-pick without much difficulty.
The snarky remark about 121 experience related to the large number of furloughed and/or moonlighting airline pilots who've offered there services to us if only we'd pay for their TR in the airplane (not going to happen).
Anyhow...we're very happy with our crew and how they operate our airplane and care for our family. Someone remarked about flying "high value executives" and that military pilots lacked that experience/skill set. To which I say GOOD! I don't want or need a concierge, a lackey or a servant. I need an insanely professional flight crew that's focused on one thing. The safe operation of our aircraft.
And that, happily, is what I've got.
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Marcus
I am glad for you. Unfortunately us in GA need pilots who can multi task, not just focus on one thing. Obviously safety comes top of the list but a myriad of other things come very close. You have admitted your military guys can just do one thing. No good for us
I am glad for you. Unfortunately us in GA need pilots who can multi task, not just focus on one thing. Obviously safety comes top of the list but a myriad of other things come very close. You have admitted your military guys can just do one thing. No good for us
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Best GA pilots
the ones who come through our sponsorship/training scheme
1/ Year 1: working in Ops/commercial
2/ Year 2; Type rating paid for 1/2 working in ops 1/2 on the line
Then fully on the line except when needed to help out in the office.
No bond just choose the right guys and I have never been shafted
These guys know all sides of the industry, self reliant and never rubbish the ops department because they have been there and know how difficult and frustrating it can be.
the ones who come through our sponsorship/training scheme
1/ Year 1: working in Ops/commercial
2/ Year 2; Type rating paid for 1/2 working in ops 1/2 on the line
Then fully on the line except when needed to help out in the office.
No bond just choose the right guys and I have never been shafted
These guys know all sides of the industry, self reliant and never rubbish the ops department because they have been there and know how difficult and frustrating it can be.
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The best guy is the one that has done that job well, a proven track record for getting it done...
Now how many chief pilots will hire a guy as qualified or more qualified then them?
And when they don't...now comes the excuses and justifications on who they can train, work with, social aspects..
I have no bias toward military, instructors, etc....about ten minutes on the phone tells me most of what I need to hear...
Now how many chief pilots will hire a guy as qualified or more qualified then them?
And when they don't...now comes the excuses and justifications on who they can train, work with, social aspects..
I have no bias toward military, instructors, etc....about ten minutes on the phone tells me most of what I need to hear...