Part 91 Operators Hassled at LFPB
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Part 91 Operators Hassled at LFPB
The point up front: Apparently the French authorities are under the impression that many Part 91 operators are doing so to skirt the requirements and approval of French authorities for commercial operations. They will want to take your passengers (or boss, as in our case) and questioned them separately—like criminals I might add. Here is the question that they pose: Are you paying for this flight? Now in a general since, your boss or owner of the aircraft IS PAYING for all of “this.” The aircraft, fuel, maintenance, insurance, etc. So their answer would be “Yes.” What the French authorities are trying to do essentially is get a “confession” right from the start from the owner that this is a commercial flight. You see, to the French this means “paying” as in purchasing a ticket on an airline or like paying for a share on one of the fractionals. Of course this is not specifically what your boss or principle is saying. He owns the aircraft and of course pays for all of it, much like we do with our private cars (which is the example I gave twiddle-dee and twiddle-dum) reference their harassing our boss. A.H.’s!!
I don’t quite understand the logic of this harassment, because as privates we are paying the VAT on the fuel. If commercial we wouldn’t have to pay the VAT.
In any case, here is the gouge: The answer to “Are you paying for this?” is “This is my personal airplane.” I am purchasing fuel for my personal aircraft. I am here for personal reasons.” Do not mention business. DO NOT say anything about “paying for this flight.” This is a personal airplane. Period.
Where is this coming from?
First, As captain, and experienced from around the world operations it felt and seemed just like a shake-down for a bribe. But this was France, civilized, professional, I didn’t think it could be—and none was offered.
Second, was this just two Customs Officer gone rogue? Both acted immature, like buffoons really, drunk with power. I have made the necessary complaints, verbally and in writing, but I get the sense there that the protection of their profession as a whole overrides the investigation of the officers gone rogue.
Just be prepared and ready to be harassed by the French Customs Officials when going to LFPB.
I don’t quite understand the logic of this harassment, because as privates we are paying the VAT on the fuel. If commercial we wouldn’t have to pay the VAT.
In any case, here is the gouge: The answer to “Are you paying for this?” is “This is my personal airplane.” I am purchasing fuel for my personal aircraft. I am here for personal reasons.” Do not mention business. DO NOT say anything about “paying for this flight.” This is a personal airplane. Period.
Where is this coming from?
First, As captain, and experienced from around the world operations it felt and seemed just like a shake-down for a bribe. But this was France, civilized, professional, I didn’t think it could be—and none was offered.
Second, was this just two Customs Officer gone rogue? Both acted immature, like buffoons really, drunk with power. I have made the necessary complaints, verbally and in writing, but I get the sense there that the protection of their profession as a whole overrides the investigation of the officers gone rogue.
Just be prepared and ready to be harassed by the French Customs Officials when going to LFPB.
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Have you ever had to deal with US Custom/Immigration?
Had exactly the same questions and more asked to the passengers and crew.
And the friendliness.......well.......
Then add fingerprinting and pictures to the "feeling like criminals"
Had exactly the same questions and more asked to the passengers and crew.
And the friendliness.......well.......
Then add fingerprinting and pictures to the "feeling like criminals"
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I agree completely. I never knew how bad the US customs were until I flew from Moscow to New York with a crew that was me, a French woman and an Italian woman, and a brit... The stories that they told starting at 30 west were eye opening.
I think we get the "good old USA" feeling and forget that we have some of the most onerous regulations anywhere. Sure, I've never been asked for a bribe, but if you used to live in Nigeria, or have the same last name as some watch list person, your life can become miserable quickly.
Just food for thought
FR
I think we get the "good old USA" feeling and forget that we have some of the most onerous regulations anywhere. Sure, I've never been asked for a bribe, but if you used to live in Nigeria, or have the same last name as some watch list person, your life can become miserable quickly.
Just food for thought
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jethelopilot, tell me your tail number and I will tell you why this happened 
These guys are chasing illegal charters (which by the way occur every day) the way they can: as they have no clue how to check properly, they just ask more or less stupid questions...
These guys are chasing illegal charters (which by the way occur every day) the way they can: as they have no clue how to check properly, they just ask more or less stupid questions...
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Sadly this is becoming the norm, and for most EU countries, and some of them act more third world than you would expect. My experience, and others is that the best is to pre-empt these muppets.
Get certified, in other words official like stamped, copies of all your docs. This includes a lawyer drafted, officaially stamped, gold plated, looking letter with the owners declaration that this is his aircraft for his company and will carry these persons. Make copies of all put in a give away nice looking package with a multi language explanation on front of what it is.
When said baboons arrive pretend not understand a word they utter and throw said folder there ways, saying gift for you.
It seems to work, but all depends what side of the cubicle said official woke up that day. Some of them can be right pricks though and sometimes the thought of revisiting my African ways and slipping the ole waxy note between the fingers.
Usually a coke helps, but these days it constitutes bribery anyway, so might as well go the whole hog.
All I know is that it is going to get more difficult, and these guys are looking to fill there coffers with fines and impoundings. Be careful out there as it is going to get more interesting.
Get certified, in other words official like stamped, copies of all your docs. This includes a lawyer drafted, officaially stamped, gold plated, looking letter with the owners declaration that this is his aircraft for his company and will carry these persons. Make copies of all put in a give away nice looking package with a multi language explanation on front of what it is.
When said baboons arrive pretend not understand a word they utter and throw said folder there ways, saying gift for you.
It seems to work, but all depends what side of the cubicle said official woke up that day. Some of them can be right pricks though and sometimes the thought of revisiting my African ways and slipping the ole waxy note between the fingers.
Usually a coke helps, but these days it constitutes bribery anyway, so might as well go the whole hog.
All I know is that it is going to get more difficult, and these guys are looking to fill there coffers with fines and impoundings. Be careful out there as it is going to get more interesting.
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coke or A coke
big difference.
In general the paperwork that the French want is getting to be a pain in the reverse, the Italians are catching up, so beware there too.
Re USA, never had major problems, except when a Russian gentleman declared 10k US, and has 150k....plus many passports, in his man bag....the oddicers accused me of knowing what was in has bag.....what to do.....
glf
In general the paperwork that the French want is getting to be a pain in the reverse, the Italians are catching up, so beware there too.
Re USA, never had major problems, except when a Russian gentleman declared 10k US, and has 150k....plus many passports, in his man bag....the oddicers accused me of knowing what was in has bag.....what to do.....
glf
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Jethelopilot
Welcome to the United States of Europe, now maybe you can understand what we have had to endure travelling to the USA since 911, TSA, body scans, questions, pat downs, intrusion etc etc. anyway hope it has not put your boss off to much travelling to Europe.
I don’t quite understand the logic of this harassment,
Last edited by Above The Clouds; 14th Jul 2011 at 07:20.
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tell me your tail number and I will tell you why this happened
As we also operate some aircraft under FAR91, we got a nice letter from the local regulators stating that the aircraft are not for hire or reward, they are operated for the owner or his guests!
Have you ever had to deal with US Custom/Immigration?
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Some immigration officials are stupid arseholes and some aren´t.
May that be in the US or France, Germany or the UK or some place else.
What I do suspect is though, that they don´t act on their own, there must be someone a few steps higher making them act. Thats where one would have to complain.
5 hrs to check the aircraft? Have you/your colleagues complained about that? That sounds really like an abuse of power...
OTOH I once was inbound for Cannes and when being asked to descend almost 300nm before destination I told ATC that if I´d had to descent now I wouldn´t make destination but would have to divert. I had - after landing - the Gendarmerie (!!!!) in the airplane, investigating the remaining fuel. That was some 100lbs above min diversion, so they sodded off quickly. God knows what would have happened had it been lower thn mindiv...
I never learned who sent them, ATC or DGAC? They would not tell me and the tower in Cannes denied to speak about it and in the Center the shift had changed... te french way I guess...
May that be in the US or France, Germany or the UK or some place else.
What I do suspect is though, that they don´t act on their own, there must be someone a few steps higher making them act. Thats where one would have to complain.
5 hrs to check the aircraft? Have you/your colleagues complained about that? That sounds really like an abuse of power...
OTOH I once was inbound for Cannes and when being asked to descend almost 300nm before destination I told ATC that if I´d had to descent now I wouldn´t make destination but would have to divert. I had - after landing - the Gendarmerie (!!!!) in the airplane, investigating the remaining fuel. That was some 100lbs above min diversion, so they sodded off quickly. God knows what would have happened had it been lower thn mindiv...
I never learned who sent them, ATC or DGAC? They would not tell me and the tower in Cannes denied to speak about it and in the Center the shift had changed... te french way I guess...
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Get certified, in other words official like stamped, copies of all your docs. This includes a lawyer drafted, officaially stamped, gold plated, looking letter with the owners declaration that this is his aircraft for his company and will carry these persons. Make copies of all put in a give away nice looking package with a multi language explanation on front of what it is.
When said baboons arrive pretend not understand a word they utter and throw said folder there ways, saying gift for you.
When said baboons arrive pretend not understand a word they utter and throw said folder there ways, saying gift for you.
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The point up front: Apparently the French authorities are under the impression that many Part 91 operators are doing so to skirt the requirements and approval of French authorities for commercial operations.
[...]
I don’t quite understand the logic of this harassment
[...]
I don’t quite understand the logic of this harassment
First off the issue of 'black' charters is a problem for the industry. As you are aware to perform charter operations one has hold the appropriate authorisations to do so and that costs as it does to comply with chatere regulations for operation over that of part 91 operations. So the deal here for us all is that the 'black' charters undermine the stability of the industry and in direct competition with the cost and constraints of charter operations it only serves to damage us all. hell why bother with certification to operate charter, if you can do it under 91 and do it cheaper !!
Also there is also the liabilty aspect in the event of an incident on a part 91 aircraft it is doing 'black' charters..
The US had this a while back with Part 135 operators having to compete with fractional operators who were doing 'black' charters under part 91, and we saw subpart K as an attempt to deal with this. The FAA has also been hot on 'operation control' more recently..
in terms of EU based foreign reg aircraft, if they are owned by a corporation in the same state of registry and it is performing operations for the internal use of the company then as far as I am concerned, the EU are just throwing their toys about. If they deal with the regulatory and taxation issues of asset ownership and make it more attractive to have an aircraft locally registered and operated, instead of taxing all they can lay their eyes on, out of the EU then perhaps EU registered aircraft will be more common.
So yes, the EU need deal with black charters but they also look at the system, the operational and ownership environment for private / corporate aircraft owners.
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Be prepared and have your papers in order - you have nothing to fear!
If they drag it out and give you a hard time, acting like the arrogant Captain Prick is exactly what they've been waiting for. This will only extend your stay.
Be precise and polite and smile. They have more power than you at this moment and they are prepared to show you what they are entitled to. Don't give them an excuse to do this to your passengers!
There are many illegal 'charterers' out there, making life difficult for the rest of us and ruining the industry's reputation.
Assholes who misuse their power are universal, unfortunately...
If they drag it out and give you a hard time, acting like the arrogant Captain Prick is exactly what they've been waiting for. This will only extend your stay.
Be precise and polite and smile. They have more power than you at this moment and they are prepared to show you what they are entitled to. Don't give them an excuse to do this to your passengers!
There are many illegal 'charterers' out there, making life difficult for the rest of us and ruining the industry's reputation.
Assholes who misuse their power are universal, unfortunately...
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First off the issue of 'black' charters is a problem for the industry. As you are aware to perform charter operations one has hold the appropriate authorisations to do so and that costs as it does to comply with chatere regulations for operation over that of part 91 operations. So the deal here for us all is that the 'black' charters undermine the stability of the industry and in direct competition with the cost and constraints of charter operations it only serves to damage us all. hell why bother with certification to operate charter, if you can do it under 91 and do it cheaper !!
The EU should look at deregulation to make AOC ops more cost efficient!
Regulations dont equal safety as shown by the attrocious safety stats of EU OPS compared to Part 135.
Its the same with the 67000 N reg IR pilots in Europe? Like in most markets why not ask the question WHY? and put something more attractive in place tio get rid of N reg? Isnt that the way of a FREE society?
But that doesnt sit comfortably with Burocratic Europe you are fighting the wrong enemy! So keep voting for Burocratic europe and kill the whole industry Private And commercial because all you will achieve will be greater and greater restrictions and costs so who wins?
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 17th Jul 2011 at 14:03.
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Not mentioned so far on this thread - by far the most common reason for a ramp-check on an N reg aircraft in France is to check the VAT (tax) paperwork. Any aircraft that is resident in Europe and therefore in what is called "free circulation" in the EU must have "imported" the airframe at some point. Locally based N reg aircraft understand this, and will have imported the aircraft, paid the tax (and if they know what they are doing, claimed it all back again). Itinerant N-reg aircraft can get caught out - if you overstay your welcome, you become liable to pay the tax.
The French "Marigolds" will therefore ask to see all your aircraft papers - in fact they will start with the tech log because they want to see if you have done intra-European flights, and how long you have been around. They will then work down the ownership, licences and so on.
If you are in a hurry, and you HAVE imported the aircraft into the EU properly, then in my experience you can short circuit the whole nonsense by just handing them a copy of the VAT receipt as the first item... They immediately lose interest and you can go on your way.
The reason is simple - if they catch anyone, they get a bonus of a percentage of the tax, and on a small Citation the tax might be the best part of a million dollars.
The French "Marigolds" will therefore ask to see all your aircraft papers - in fact they will start with the tech log because they want to see if you have done intra-European flights, and how long you have been around. They will then work down the ownership, licences and so on.
If you are in a hurry, and you HAVE imported the aircraft into the EU properly, then in my experience you can short circuit the whole nonsense by just handing them a copy of the VAT receipt as the first item... They immediately lose interest and you can go on your way.
The reason is simple - if they catch anyone, they get a bonus of a percentage of the tax, and on a small Citation the tax might be the best part of a million dollars.
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http://www.easa.eu.int/ws_prod/g/doc...ure%20v1.0.pdf
Inspectors must show tact and diplomacy when performing a SAFA Ramp Inspection.
Any unnecessary contact with passengers should be avoided; however, to be able to
inspect certain elements in the cabin this may be justified, for example:
a. proper stowage of cabin baggage under the seat,
b. excessive overweight in overhead luggage bins,
c. baggage in front of emergency exit,
d. Infants/children over the minimum age determined by the State of oversight
should have their own seat,
e. Passengers repartition in the cabin, compared to the loadsheet data,
f. Sufficient number of seats.
Inspectors must show tact and diplomacy when performing a SAFA Ramp Inspection.
Any unnecessary contact with passengers should be avoided; however, to be able to
inspect certain elements in the cabin this may be justified, for example:
a. proper stowage of cabin baggage under the seat,
b. excessive overweight in overhead luggage bins,
c. baggage in front of emergency exit,
d. Infants/children over the minimum age determined by the State of oversight
should have their own seat,
e. Passengers repartition in the cabin, compared to the loadsheet data,
f. Sufficient number of seats.
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...when performing a SAFA Ramp Inspection.
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VAT exemption in France..
Was wondering if anyone know what is the procedure to get VAT exemption for a foreign registered aircraft non based in EU? I heard this can be done provided at least 80% of flights can be proven international? Is this true?
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Jethelopilot
Quote:
I don’t quite understand the logic of this harassment,
Welcome to the United States of Europe, now maybe you can understand what we have had to endure travelling to the USA since 911, TSA, body scans, questions, pat downs, intrusion etc etc. anyway hope it has not put your boss off to much travelling to Europe.
Quote:
I don’t quite understand the logic of this harassment,
Welcome to the United States of Europe, now maybe you can understand what we have had to endure travelling to the USA since 911, TSA, body scans, questions, pat downs, intrusion etc etc. anyway hope it has not put your boss off to much travelling to Europe.
Psychos.
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Its the same with the 67000 N reg IR pilots in Europe?
There are that in seperate entries of europeans in the licence database.
But when you look at it if you have done any pre PPL training in the US you will have an entry. So thats all the intergrated schools that operate over there and all the modular PPL done in the FL sausage factories. Ormond beach alone claims to have done over 10 000 since 1991. Then if you go back hour building you are then mentioned again. Then there were all the CFI's from europe that went over and worked then converted when they got back.
Personally I am counted in your statistics twice.
A fact which I think will be sprung on you at some point.
I don't have a clue how many there actually are, someone will need to do a SQL query on the database and then pull out all the multiple entries and then pull out all the once only medicals. Then start pulling out who holds which licenses and ratings. I doudt very much if it will be 5 figures, potentially an awful lot less for current flying FAA ticket holders.