Any Cessna 650 pilots who can help?
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Any Cessna 650 pilots who can help?
I currently fly and manage a Hawker 125 3A/RA-731 for my boss and we are looking for a replacement aircraft.
One of the aircraft we are considering is a Cessna 650. Is this a good replacement? and how reliable is it. Ordinarily we fly from regular airstrips but one in particular can be tricky, ie: departure out of Goma DRC (FZNA) 6200ft runway available, 26 degrees Celsius, 4500ft elevation, 5500lbs of fuel and 2-4 pax. can the 650 do this?
Any help would be most appreciated.
One of the aircraft we are considering is a Cessna 650. Is this a good replacement? and how reliable is it. Ordinarily we fly from regular airstrips but one in particular can be tricky, ie: departure out of Goma DRC (FZNA) 6200ft runway available, 26 degrees Celsius, 4500ft elevation, 5500lbs of fuel and 2-4 pax. can the 650 do this?
Any help would be most appreciated.
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The VII performance section says for flaps 20 (the -7° numbers are considerably higher) at an elevation of 5000ft:
at 25° youīd use 6070ft of runway at 21000lbs and 5570ft at 20000lbs.
Climb/weight limit for 21000lbs is 28° and the field lenght at temp limit is 6310ft
For 4000ft elevation/25° the manual comes up with:
6150 ft for 22000lbs and 5660ft at 21000lbs, climb/weight limit is 27° for 22000lbs and field length at temp limit is 6310ft.
Max takeoff is 23000lbs, max fuel is 7200 IIRC.
The III performs worse on takeoff, I donīt have manual handy right now, so canīt give you the numbers. I donīt have much experience on the aircraft (flew the III and VII for roughly 200hrs) but remember that they are not easy and definately not cheap to maintain.(I flew quite few years in a company that operated a III and a VII on a different aircraft)
I canīt tell you empty weights, to long ago for my brain, but the VII should do the trick, just. Iīd think the III couldnīt. The VI is , IIRC more or less a III with cheaper avionics, but I have never flown one.
at 25° youīd use 6070ft of runway at 21000lbs and 5570ft at 20000lbs.
Climb/weight limit for 21000lbs is 28° and the field lenght at temp limit is 6310ft
For 4000ft elevation/25° the manual comes up with:
6150 ft for 22000lbs and 5660ft at 21000lbs, climb/weight limit is 27° for 22000lbs and field length at temp limit is 6310ft.
Max takeoff is 23000lbs, max fuel is 7200 IIRC.
The III performs worse on takeoff, I donīt have manual handy right now, so canīt give you the numbers. I donīt have much experience on the aircraft (flew the III and VII for roughly 200hrs) but remember that they are not easy and definately not cheap to maintain.(I flew quite few years in a company that operated a III and a VII on a different aircraft)
I canīt tell you empty weights, to long ago for my brain, but the VII should do the trick, just. Iīd think the III couldnīt. The VI is , IIRC more or less a III with cheaper avionics, but I have never flown one.
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Citation 3 650
ChIkInHaWk:
I have a Cessna Citation III Flight Training Manual and a Citation III Recurrent Training Manual.
The Manuals are comprehensive and complete and I do not mind answering specific questions on the Citation 3. In my flying days on the type I found it a good aircraft and it would also get to Mach 0.8.
Tmb
I have a Cessna Citation III Flight Training Manual and a Citation III Recurrent Training Manual.
The Manuals are comprehensive and complete and I do not mind answering specific questions on the Citation 3. In my flying days on the type I found it a good aircraft and it would also get to Mach 0.8.
Tmb
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Dont even think about it ! the maintenance will cost you a fortune and the fuel burns are crazy.
The aircraft will not deliver the t/o perf you need
although I have to say it is a great aircraft to fly on someone elses dollar !
The aircraft will not deliver the t/o perf you need
although I have to say it is a great aircraft to fly on someone elses dollar !
Performance
Cicken Hawk,
When evaluating aircraft in the past for prospective owners I have found that the manufacturers will often give you a CD copy of the flight manual. Even if they do not then the small cost of a genuine flight manual from their publications department is worth the expenditure to get accurate and reliable figures for yourself.
MM
When evaluating aircraft in the past for prospective owners I have found that the manufacturers will often give you a CD copy of the flight manual. Even if they do not then the small cost of a genuine flight manual from their publications department is worth the expenditure to get accurate and reliable figures for yourself.
MM
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ChIkInHaWk:
Stick with the 3RA. Great aircraft. Is it the one I sold to South Africa in 2002? althought that was a 3BRA. It will be difficult to find an aircraft to match it for performance, especially hot.high. It is probably getting a bit of a problem with maintenance and spares now although I do think I have a few bits and pieces knocking about still!
Your aircraft is worth just a few $100,000 my solution would be to buy another 3-731 or a 400-731 for the same sort of money, then you would have unlimited spares to keep yours going. Also you would save a fortune by not paying MSP as you would have 2 spare engines.
Keep the old bird flying she will not want to retire just yet, she is only 41 or 42 years young!
Stick with the 3RA. Great aircraft. Is it the one I sold to South Africa in 2002? althought that was a 3BRA. It will be difficult to find an aircraft to match it for performance, especially hot.high. It is probably getting a bit of a problem with maintenance and spares now although I do think I have a few bits and pieces knocking about still!
Your aircraft is worth just a few $100,000 my solution would be to buy another 3-731 or a 400-731 for the same sort of money, then you would have unlimited spares to keep yours going. Also you would save a fortune by not paying MSP as you would have 2 spare engines.
Keep the old bird flying she will not want to retire just yet, she is only 41 or 42 years young!
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ChIkInHaWk:
You need the rugged dependability of a Hawker in Africa. If you want to go "modern"
get an 800. They are about same price as a 650 but more capable. Believe me Goma 26 5500lbs fuel 4 pax is no problem. Add a few more passengers or degrees still no problem. Same fuel burn as your 3RA and no training costs. (that will please your boss) Have a really nice 800B just off 48 month if you are interested.
You need the rugged dependability of a Hawker in Africa. If you want to go "modern"
get an 800. They are about same price as a 650 but more capable. Believe me Goma 26 5500lbs fuel 4 pax is no problem. Add a few more passengers or degrees still no problem. Same fuel burn as your 3RA and no training costs. (that will please your boss) Have a really nice 800B just off 48 month if you are interested.
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C650
Re "Dont even think about it ! the maintenance will cost you a fortune and the fuel burns are crazy."
Thanks for the comment but it cant be any worse than our Hawkers current maintenance bills...the thing lives in the hangar and is a ongoing pain in the ass for myself as the pilot/manager and the owners wallet.
We are seriously considering the Hawker 800 (looking at a 800sp currently) but trying to find other aircraft that will fit the bill to give the boss some options. I have been told that the C650 is a lot of airplane for the money and although it is a very "electric" aircraft it has a much higher dispatch rate than a hawker, and certainly better reliability than a Hawker 1000.
Our aircraft has bitten the owner VERY badly and I want to do a very thorough evaluation on various aircraft that will suit his needs and avoid another horrible experience.
Don't get me wrong, I love the Hawkers and I have flown viper 3a's, our 731 3a/ra and 700's with a lot of joy, but only one 700 I flew was relatively snag free.
The C650 just seems like a good "bang-for-buck" airplane.
It might also be worth mentioning that our utilization is not that high at only 20hrs a month, but it really annoys the hell out of the boss and myself that our Hawker has to go into the hangar for work after every trip without fail.
In case it helps, a typical trip for us would be FALA-FZQA-FZNA-FZOA-FZAA-FALA (+/_ 10 days round trip) I have also checked the runway length at goma and the Jepps say it is 6500ft
Thanks for the comment but it cant be any worse than our Hawkers current maintenance bills...the thing lives in the hangar and is a ongoing pain in the ass for myself as the pilot/manager and the owners wallet.
We are seriously considering the Hawker 800 (looking at a 800sp currently) but trying to find other aircraft that will fit the bill to give the boss some options. I have been told that the C650 is a lot of airplane for the money and although it is a very "electric" aircraft it has a much higher dispatch rate than a hawker, and certainly better reliability than a Hawker 1000.
Our aircraft has bitten the owner VERY badly and I want to do a very thorough evaluation on various aircraft that will suit his needs and avoid another horrible experience.
Don't get me wrong, I love the Hawkers and I have flown viper 3a's, our 731 3a/ra and 700's with a lot of joy, but only one 700 I flew was relatively snag free.
The C650 just seems like a good "bang-for-buck" airplane.
It might also be worth mentioning that our utilization is not that high at only 20hrs a month, but it really annoys the hell out of the boss and myself that our Hawker has to go into the hangar for work after every trip without fail.
In case it helps, a typical trip for us would be FALA-FZQA-FZNA-FZOA-FZAA-FALA (+/_ 10 days round trip) I have also checked the runway length at goma and the Jepps say it is 6500ft
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ChikinHawk
Forgive me for stating the obvious but you are operating 40 year old airframes in quite a harsh climate! What do you honestly expect?? Nothing lasts forever and it sound like you have flogged the old bird enough! Even the 700's you've flown would probably have been manufactured in the late 70's or very early 80's. Planes break, older planes break more often and really old planes....................well you get my drift!
As hawker750 says a 'newer' 800 would be a good option for you. Try to get the latest model your boss can afford, the 800B is a good one. It seems you are already looking at one of these with winglets - the 800SP!
Listen to Martin Barnes he used to fly the C650. They stopped making it for a reason!
Good luck!
Forgive me for stating the obvious but you are operating 40 year old airframes in quite a harsh climate! What do you honestly expect?? Nothing lasts forever and it sound like you have flogged the old bird enough! Even the 700's you've flown would probably have been manufactured in the late 70's or very early 80's. Planes break, older planes break more often and really old planes....................well you get my drift!
As hawker750 says a 'newer' 800 would be a good option for you. Try to get the latest model your boss can afford, the 800B is a good one. It seems you are already looking at one of these with winglets - the 800SP!
Listen to Martin Barnes he used to fly the C650. They stopped making it for a reason!
Good luck!
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ChikinHawk
Sorry to hear about your 3ARA perhaps it is time to say goodby to her.
Your route structure is ideal for a Hawker 800. Beware of buying an early serial number 800 with the winglet mods. Early serial numbers have a low max zero fuel weight (17,520 lbs not 18,000 lbs). The winglets weigh about 200 lbs and that comes straight off your max payload. They look good on the ramp but that is about it.
Get a relatively cheap spares pack and I could almost guarantee a trouble free operation. We operate an early 800 on African flights all the time with no problems.
Spares to take: Starter and GCU, both simple to change in the field and having them on board guarantees you will never need them.
PM me if you want any more info
Sorry to hear about your 3ARA perhaps it is time to say goodby to her.
Your route structure is ideal for a Hawker 800. Beware of buying an early serial number 800 with the winglet mods. Early serial numbers have a low max zero fuel weight (17,520 lbs not 18,000 lbs). The winglets weigh about 200 lbs and that comes straight off your max payload. They look good on the ramp but that is about it.
Get a relatively cheap spares pack and I could almost guarantee a trouble free operation. We operate an early 800 on African flights all the time with no problems.
Spares to take: Starter and GCU, both simple to change in the field and having them on board guarantees you will never need them.
PM me if you want any more info
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Pilot Training Manuals
ChIkInHaWk:
I have a Cessna Citation III Flight Training Manual and a Citation III Recurrent Training Manual.
The Manuals are comprehensive and complete and I do not mind answering specific questions on the Citation 3. In my flying days on the type I found it a good aircraft and it would also get to Mach 0.8.
Tmb
I have a Cessna Citation III Flight Training Manual and a Citation III Recurrent Training Manual.
The Manuals are comprehensive and complete and I do not mind answering specific questions on the Citation 3. In my flying days on the type I found it a good aircraft and it would also get to Mach 0.8.
Tmb
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send me your email, I have it for CIT VII
Mine is [email protected]
Mine is [email protected]
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I can`t help on the performance data, too many years ago I flew it, BUT I will say from a pilots perspective : it is by far the best handling aircraft I have ever flown ! Really nice to hand fly, and good A/P. But it is > 20 years ago, so off course you will get more sophisticated biz jets today (at a price)
We flew it all over the world, with really good reliability, not many problems. We had a good inhouse maintenance department, and I never heard any complaints from our management about high maintenance costs.
We flew it all over the world, with really good reliability, not many problems. We had a good inhouse maintenance department, and I never heard any complaints from our management about high maintenance costs.
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The CE650 is a great reliable airplane and also fast, but for guaranteed 98% dispatchability 24/7 12 months a year operating out of high altitude airport with consideration for contaminated runway and average pilot skills, I would recommend a Citation Sovereign 680, as well as having a lot of extra thrust weight ratio and allows you to get into relatively short runways.
