Air Taxi Aspirations
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Air Taxi Aspirations
Good morning,
Does anybody reckon that 33 is too old to begin training toward an ATPL?
The reason I ask is that although I have a PPL, IMC and Night Rating, I would like to continue and work to become an Air Taxi Pilot flying for a company that does private charter, air medical work etc. I have no desire what so ever to become an Airbus or Boeing pilot, that simply doesn't appeal to me. I am happy to fly single crew ops, and small aircraft like the PA31 etc. Of course I am concerned that I am getting too old (don't laugh) and it's not a viable option.
Many thanks for any advice.
airtaxiwannabe
Does anybody reckon that 33 is too old to begin training toward an ATPL?
The reason I ask is that although I have a PPL, IMC and Night Rating, I would like to continue and work to become an Air Taxi Pilot flying for a company that does private charter, air medical work etc. I have no desire what so ever to become an Airbus or Boeing pilot, that simply doesn't appeal to me. I am happy to fly single crew ops, and small aircraft like the PA31 etc. Of course I am concerned that I am getting too old (don't laugh) and it's not a viable option.
Many thanks for any advice.
airtaxiwannabe
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No, not too old. I was 27 when I started training. Now I fly part 135 air-ambulance in the southwestern US and I love it. No airlines for me.
Before that I flew charters in the Caribbean, great flying. The term air taxi is not that common anymore, charter pilot is more like it.
Good luck.
Before that I flew charters in the Caribbean, great flying. The term air taxi is not that common anymore, charter pilot is more like it.
Good luck.
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Not too old at all. I was a few years older than that when I turned my hobby into my career.
You don't say how many hours you have, or whether you already have multi-engine time. IIRC under JAR OPS you will need a minimum of 700hrs TT to be P1 in commercial ops air taxy. You might find your route to that means a fair few 'bag lugging' unpaid (unofficial) P2 rides - just helping things along - so to speak.
You don't say how many hours you have, or whether you already have multi-engine time. IIRC under JAR OPS you will need a minimum of 700hrs TT to be P1 in commercial ops air taxy. You might find your route to that means a fair few 'bag lugging' unpaid (unofficial) P2 rides - just helping things along - so to speak.
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Duchess Driver
I think you will find that the 700 hour rule applies to multi-pilot types certified for single-pilot ops. Light twins are excepted from this rule (read the Appendix for full details). However, since this misconception has been passed from father to son, most AOCs will state 700 hours as a minimum.
Having done single crew commercial ops around Europe in Senecas/Navajos I would say to the OP that he needs to think very carefully before looking at this as a career path. These companies are the bottom-feeders of the industry; pay and conditions are generally abysmal and the aircraft are barely airworthy (from my experience). Sitting at FL100 at 02.00 in the middle of Winter somewhere over Germany with a malfunctioning heater and a cockpit temperature of -15 aint fun, believe me! Still, at least you can comfort Yourself by switching on the wing ice light for company - just pray those wheezy old "boots" come good when you need them..
Seriously, though, if you want to live long and prosper, forget this as a way of making a living (if you can call £15k and no perks a living) and try and get a multi-crew jet job.
AP
I think you will find that the 700 hour rule applies to multi-pilot types certified for single-pilot ops. Light twins are excepted from this rule (read the Appendix for full details). However, since this misconception has been passed from father to son, most AOCs will state 700 hours as a minimum.
Having done single crew commercial ops around Europe in Senecas/Navajos I would say to the OP that he needs to think very carefully before looking at this as a career path. These companies are the bottom-feeders of the industry; pay and conditions are generally abysmal and the aircraft are barely airworthy (from my experience). Sitting at FL100 at 02.00 in the middle of Winter somewhere over Germany with a malfunctioning heater and a cockpit temperature of -15 aint fun, believe me! Still, at least you can comfort Yourself by switching on the wing ice light for company - just pray those wheezy old "boots" come good when you need them..
Seriously, though, if you want to live long and prosper, forget this as a way of making a living (if you can call £15k and no perks a living) and try and get a multi-crew jet job.
AP
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Who says he has to fly a crappy navajo in Europe in the winter? There are other job options out there for the chap.
As a low time charter pilot I flew a navajo in the Caribbean and made a reasonable living doing it, no heater required!
As a low time charter pilot I flew a navajo in the Caribbean and made a reasonable living doing it, no heater required!
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Chongololo
In all honesty that's exactly what he will probably end up doing - flying a crappy Navajo in winter in IMC in Northern Europe. Not nice at all! It's clear from his profile he is from the UK. Jobs in the Caribbean are very hard to come by and it's not like he can just pop over there to investigate!
Would recommend becoming an instructor and doing multi IR training then perhaps move on to a Beech 200 followed by a sleek biz jet!
In all honesty that's exactly what he will probably end up doing - flying a crappy Navajo in winter in IMC in Northern Europe. Not nice at all! It's clear from his profile he is from the UK. Jobs in the Caribbean are very hard to come by and it's not like he can just pop over there to investigate!
Would recommend becoming an instructor and doing multi IR training then perhaps move on to a Beech 200 followed by a sleek biz jet!
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Thanks guys, for some reason I honestly thought it wasn't worth it because of my age, but obviously not. To be perfectly honest, with my present licence, ratings and 136 hours, I would be happy to fly an open cockpit biplane in the depths of Northern Europe at the moment, but I know that once achieved I would complain about the cold and conditions etc, especially when doing it everyday.
At the moment I work as an Ops Sup for a ground handler at a UK airport and have a lot of dealings with adhoc work including air charter and medical. Each time they come in I can imagine myself flying their turboprops and know it's the route for me.
Any other suggestions though to avoid that Navajo in Northern Europe would be much appreciated.
Many thanks!
At the moment I work as an Ops Sup for a ground handler at a UK airport and have a lot of dealings with adhoc work including air charter and medical. Each time they come in I can imagine myself flying their turboprops and know it's the route for me.
Any other suggestions though to avoid that Navajo in Northern Europe would be much appreciated.
Many thanks!
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Go Turboprop !!
Hi All,
Firstly, 33 is nowhere even near too old, I started later than that and have met a few guys who started in their 40's, all bizjet guys though.
I think that when it comes to the airliners they want experience in line with your age, but as you dont wanna fly for the airlines thats not a problem.
I dont know of many taxi companies these days, but I do know that it would be very hard work in a small piston twin, good experience but I think when you get a taste of it you will want to move onto something else, I mean when you walk out to your Seneca on a cold winters morning and there is a brand spankin all singing dancing B200 beside you, pound to a pinch youl want your ass on it.
Its great that its the kind of work that appeals to you but I think you would have far more fun in something like a B200, I loved flying it, and anyone who I ever speak to that has flown it would love to be back flying one.
What job are you doin at the moment ? Difficult time in GA at the moment, do you really want to leave a good job ?
I wish you all the best with your CPL/IR
Spam Up
Firstly, 33 is nowhere even near too old, I started later than that and have met a few guys who started in their 40's, all bizjet guys though.
I think that when it comes to the airliners they want experience in line with your age, but as you dont wanna fly for the airlines thats not a problem.
I dont know of many taxi companies these days, but I do know that it would be very hard work in a small piston twin, good experience but I think when you get a taste of it you will want to move onto something else, I mean when you walk out to your Seneca on a cold winters morning and there is a brand spankin all singing dancing B200 beside you, pound to a pinch youl want your ass on it.
Its great that its the kind of work that appeals to you but I think you would have far more fun in something like a B200, I loved flying it, and anyone who I ever speak to that has flown it would love to be back flying one.
What job are you doin at the moment ? Difficult time in GA at the moment, do you really want to leave a good job ?
I wish you all the best with your CPL/IR
Spam Up
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Thanks Spam Up for the advice,
My plan isn't to proceed immediately, especially as I have been reassured that I am not too old. I will just build my hours and more importantly my experience and then look toward taking the plunge. At the moment I have a great job, a brilliant boss and not a bad wage, but I have always wanted that coveted flying position. I was also thinking about instructing, but not to build my hours and then Foxtrot Oscar to an airline, but to actually use it in conjunction with charter work. I guess being a utility pilot and being multi skilled in what I do. I think that working in an operations and dispatch role has certainly tainted my view of the airlines, and there just isn't any appeal to me personally of sitting in a holiday jet for hours on end. People say I am mad
, not wanting to fly an Airbus or Boeing, but to me I just don't see the fun in it.
Thanks
My plan isn't to proceed immediately, especially as I have been reassured that I am not too old. I will just build my hours and more importantly my experience and then look toward taking the plunge. At the moment I have a great job, a brilliant boss and not a bad wage, but I have always wanted that coveted flying position. I was also thinking about instructing, but not to build my hours and then Foxtrot Oscar to an airline, but to actually use it in conjunction with charter work. I guess being a utility pilot and being multi skilled in what I do. I think that working in an operations and dispatch role has certainly tainted my view of the airlines, and there just isn't any appeal to me personally of sitting in a holiday jet for hours on end. People say I am mad
, not wanting to fly an Airbus or Boeing, but to me I just don't see the fun in it.Thanks
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You're not mad AirTaxiWannabe...just different from most wannabes who only dream of shiny airline jets.
I've never flown large jets and probably won't ever, and, therefore don't know what I have missed.
The only thing I can say for sure is that I miss dearly the days when I flew twin pistons and turboprops, single crew, VFR, IFR, and all over Europe anytime of the day or night.
They remain my best flying memories, when flying was still fun (oh yes, despite the cold and damp cockpit in the winter as the Janitrol heater couldn't cope with the low OAT) varied, exciting and useful (medevac or transplant flights)! I also met and had the privilege to work with some very good people who were "true" aviators as opposed to people chasing a "social status".
Don't expect much money in it and try to choose the "right"company if you can (that could apply actually to the whole spectrum of aviation). So if you really want it, go for it and may genuinely enjoy it.
All the best for your future career.
I've never flown large jets and probably won't ever, and, therefore don't know what I have missed.
The only thing I can say for sure is that I miss dearly the days when I flew twin pistons and turboprops, single crew, VFR, IFR, and all over Europe anytime of the day or night.
They remain my best flying memories, when flying was still fun (oh yes, despite the cold and damp cockpit in the winter as the Janitrol heater couldn't cope with the low OAT) varied, exciting and useful (medevac or transplant flights)! I also met and had the privilege to work with some very good people who were "true" aviators as opposed to people chasing a "social status".
Don't expect much money in it and try to choose the "right"company if you can (that could apply actually to the whole spectrum of aviation). So if you really want it, go for it and may genuinely enjoy it.
All the best for your future career.
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Hi Leo45,
I would like to fly for Air Med in Oxford or similar outfit, they seem a good bunch and do some interesting stuff, but I don't know their standing in the aviation community.
To me, small aircraft flying appeals more as I am sure more flying involved than using complex automation. I like to think that if I had been born in the early years of aviation I would have been a mail pilot, bad weather, open cockpit and flying by the seat of my pants. Isn't that why we fly, for the actual love of flying, or am I just too enthusiastic, romantic and when I eventually make it will realise what a
I sound? 
Thanks
I would like to fly for Air Med in Oxford or similar outfit, they seem a good bunch and do some interesting stuff, but I don't know their standing in the aviation community.
To me, small aircraft flying appeals more as I am sure more flying involved than using complex automation. I like to think that if I had been born in the early years of aviation I would have been a mail pilot, bad weather, open cockpit and flying by the seat of my pants. Isn't that why we fly, for the actual love of flying, or am I just too enthusiastic, romantic and when I eventually make it will realise what a
I sound? Thanks
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airtaxiwannabe,
I used to work for AirMed myself, and can tell you that the flying I did there was some of the most enjoyable of my career so far. They are a very good operator and treat the crews well.
"apruneUK" seems to have had a bad experience with air taxi work (or a misconception about it) as I never endured such faulty equipment as he described and the pay was very good, and certainly more than an FO with most UK airlines.
As for age, 33 is certainly not too old to start a commercial career in my opinion and I wish you every luck with it
I used to work for AirMed myself, and can tell you that the flying I did there was some of the most enjoyable of my career so far. They are a very good operator and treat the crews well.
"apruneUK" seems to have had a bad experience with air taxi work (or a misconception about it) as I never endured such faulty equipment as he described and the pay was very good, and certainly more than an FO with most UK airlines.
As for age, 33 is certainly not too old to start a commercial career in my opinion and I wish you every luck with it
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Thanks for the response, I have met a few of the flight crew through my job and they have all been brilliant, great to chat to and a pleasure to look after when they are at our airport. At least I now know the company is like that.
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airtaxiwannabe...
I commend your enthusiasm to do air taxi! Re your age - I was 31 ish when I first got my PPL. Decided to go commercial a few years later (around 34) Now nearly 39, I have around 1300hrs, most of it in Air Taxi (PA31 Chieftain)
As others have said, Air Taxi is both stressful but immensely rewarding. I think it really depends what you want from flying - yes big jets are not for anyone - although ultimately I guess that's what most people aspire to in the end.
Right now however, timing is crucial. There's very little out there right now, even in Air Taxi - Chinchilla mentions Air Med (who seem like a great outfit) but their minimums are currently way more than the 700 hours I believe. I would say 1000+ absolute bottom line for most operators, although most operators aren't hiring right now. Air Taxi seems to pay around mid £20K's.
Best of luck!
I commend your enthusiasm to do air taxi! Re your age - I was 31 ish when I first got my PPL. Decided to go commercial a few years later (around 34) Now nearly 39, I have around 1300hrs, most of it in Air Taxi (PA31 Chieftain)
As others have said, Air Taxi is both stressful but immensely rewarding. I think it really depends what you want from flying - yes big jets are not for anyone - although ultimately I guess that's what most people aspire to in the end.
Right now however, timing is crucial. There's very little out there right now, even in Air Taxi - Chinchilla mentions Air Med (who seem like a great outfit) but their minimums are currently way more than the 700 hours I believe. I would say 1000+ absolute bottom line for most operators, although most operators aren't hiring right now. Air Taxi seems to pay around mid £20K's.
Best of luck!
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Thanks Finals19,
Looks like its time to hour build to the magic 1000, it really is a job that appeals to me, it's all about the flying and the actual experience. I am not attracted by the big jets, fancy uniforms and status, I am only interested in the flying. Hopefully my determination will get me through the training and hurdles, and hopefully the fact companies will realise I am there for the long term and I am not going to build hours and then go.
Looks like its time to hour build to the magic 1000, it really is a job that appeals to me, it's all about the flying and the actual experience. I am not attracted by the big jets, fancy uniforms and status, I am only interested in the flying. Hopefully my determination will get me through the training and hurdles, and hopefully the fact companies will realise I am there for the long term and I am not going to build hours and then go.
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With out raining on anyones parade.
I fly the big jets, well 737, my uniform i dont think is fancy and what status.
I wont deny that it is a great job and the pay is good.
I would like to have done air taxi, i would like to even go and just be an assistant to someone flying air taxi/medical/private ops(while still doing my job, i wouldnt quit).
Go for it, you will become a much better pilot for it.
Above all enjoy it.
RJ
I fly the big jets, well 737, my uniform i dont think is fancy and what status.
I wont deny that it is a great job and the pay is good.
I would like to have done air taxi, i would like to even go and just be an assistant to someone flying air taxi/medical/private ops(while still doing my job, i wouldnt quit).
Go for it, you will become a much better pilot for it.
Above all enjoy it.
RJ
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The unspoken secret is that the single most challenging work you can do in aviation is single pilot IFR. Flying large airplanes, particularly airline-type operations, is far more simple, and far more automated, with the work-load far more divided.
Flying a light airplane in the ice, in the clouds, at lower altitudes, often without radar, with the full workload of doing all the navigation, all the communicating, usually all the flight planning, and every other aspect associated with making a flight go, be, and end safely, is a challenging and busy endeavor. It's a rewarding one, too, because you're connected to the airplane and the flight all the time in a way that one most definitely is not in an operation such as an airline flight or corporate flight.
In a navajo, one has very little performance remaining with loss of a powerplant. In a turbojet airplane, I'm guaranteed performance within known standards; I can lose an engine and execute a missed approach, or maintain altitude, or fly to another destination; that isn't always possible in a piston twin. In fact, when you fly that single engine ILS, there's really no possibility of going around, and one shouldn't try, no matter what anyone tells you; it's a commitment to land.
Flying air taxi and charter can be hard work and a demanding activity. It's not for the faint hearted. It often doesn't pay well. The hours are often long, and many operators tend to skirt the regulations as much as possible to have pilots hanging on the end of a thread around the clock, waiting for a flight. The demands placed on the taxi and charter pilot are generally a lot higher than those placed on the turbojet airline or corporate pilot...this is the little-spoken secret...you work harder, but make a lot less.
Presently I fly a 747, but I've done quite a bit of charter and "air taxi" work in single engine and multi engine airplanes. I find it enjoyable and fun; no doubt you will, too. I find flying in that environment a lot more rewarding, with the flying being much closer to the reason I got into flying in the first place. I love to fly. Hand-flying everywhere, being 100% of the airplane and the environment, is it's own reward. Compared to flying the 747, where much of the trip is spent on autopilot, monitoring systems or working the airplane through the autopilot rather than actually manipulating the controls, flying a light twin is a pleasure. I enjoy the 747, but flying light airplanes is a guilty pleasure that I enjoy more.
33 years old isn't too late to start. It's never too late, but you need to be realistic in your expectations. The money isn't great, the conditions are often poor, and the equipment in many cases isn't top of the line, or maintained particularly well. You don't get to choose your flying times or the conditions, and the real learning, you'll find, didn't happen in your career when you were training...it happens out on the line when you get some real eye-openers.
If that's your dream, chase it. If you approach it realistically, there's no reason why you won't be quite happy when you catch it and achieve your goals. Aviation is an adventure simply because of this; we know where we start, but until we take off, we never really know where the journey will lead. You can only pick up one end of the stick to see what it weighs; when you pick up one end, you pick up the other,and who's to say what that end holds in store for you? Go for it. You'll be sorry if you look back and wish you had.
Flying a light airplane in the ice, in the clouds, at lower altitudes, often without radar, with the full workload of doing all the navigation, all the communicating, usually all the flight planning, and every other aspect associated with making a flight go, be, and end safely, is a challenging and busy endeavor. It's a rewarding one, too, because you're connected to the airplane and the flight all the time in a way that one most definitely is not in an operation such as an airline flight or corporate flight.
In a navajo, one has very little performance remaining with loss of a powerplant. In a turbojet airplane, I'm guaranteed performance within known standards; I can lose an engine and execute a missed approach, or maintain altitude, or fly to another destination; that isn't always possible in a piston twin. In fact, when you fly that single engine ILS, there's really no possibility of going around, and one shouldn't try, no matter what anyone tells you; it's a commitment to land.
Flying air taxi and charter can be hard work and a demanding activity. It's not for the faint hearted. It often doesn't pay well. The hours are often long, and many operators tend to skirt the regulations as much as possible to have pilots hanging on the end of a thread around the clock, waiting for a flight. The demands placed on the taxi and charter pilot are generally a lot higher than those placed on the turbojet airline or corporate pilot...this is the little-spoken secret...you work harder, but make a lot less.
Presently I fly a 747, but I've done quite a bit of charter and "air taxi" work in single engine and multi engine airplanes. I find it enjoyable and fun; no doubt you will, too. I find flying in that environment a lot more rewarding, with the flying being much closer to the reason I got into flying in the first place. I love to fly. Hand-flying everywhere, being 100% of the airplane and the environment, is it's own reward. Compared to flying the 747, where much of the trip is spent on autopilot, monitoring systems or working the airplane through the autopilot rather than actually manipulating the controls, flying a light twin is a pleasure. I enjoy the 747, but flying light airplanes is a guilty pleasure that I enjoy more.
33 years old isn't too late to start. It's never too late, but you need to be realistic in your expectations. The money isn't great, the conditions are often poor, and the equipment in many cases isn't top of the line, or maintained particularly well. You don't get to choose your flying times or the conditions, and the real learning, you'll find, didn't happen in your career when you were training...it happens out on the line when you get some real eye-openers.
If that's your dream, chase it. If you approach it realistically, there's no reason why you won't be quite happy when you catch it and achieve your goals. Aviation is an adventure simply because of this; we know where we start, but until we take off, we never really know where the journey will lead. You can only pick up one end of the stick to see what it weighs; when you pick up one end, you pick up the other,and who's to say what that end holds in store for you? Go for it. You'll be sorry if you look back and wish you had.
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Hi SNS3Guppy what a wonderful reply and so encouraging!
I know I will probably never be a captain of a large jet (not that I want it) and I know I will never earn the big bucks, but at the moment I feel flying is it's own reward! Ask me that again after an horrific day of IFR and ice.
If it's meant to be, it will happen, if it's not meant to be I will chase it until it is and it will still happen. I plan to be methodical and precise and hopefully make the right decisions. One day I am sure I will wish I was back in my ops office handling the flights instead of operating them, especially after a bad, cold night, but until then I will fight until I have that license.
Rjay259, I hope I haven't offended you, I was just remarking on some of the things I have heard off pilot wannabes who want the job for the money and status and not for the love of aviation.
Thanks Guys!
I know I will probably never be a captain of a large jet (not that I want it) and I know I will never earn the big bucks, but at the moment I feel flying is it's own reward! Ask me that again after an horrific day of IFR and ice.
If it's meant to be, it will happen, if it's not meant to be I will chase it until it is and it will still happen. I plan to be methodical and precise and hopefully make the right decisions. One day I am sure I will wish I was back in my ops office handling the flights instead of operating them, especially after a bad, cold night, but until then I will fight until I have that license.
Rjay259, I hope I haven't offended you, I was just remarking on some of the things I have heard off pilot wannabes who want the job for the money and status and not for the love of aviation.
Thanks Guys!
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Guppy summed it up quite nicely I think.
I did the air taxi thing for a while and yes it was very rewarding, but when I finished I was glad to be leaving it behind. Flying the seneca everywhere on min fuel so you can carry the payload leaves you with far less options. Over the north sea Aberdeen/Newcastle to Stavanger or similar was not fun either.
In perf the engine failure case is not considered below 1500' and you will be departing in much less than that.
The Navajo was truly a lovely aircraft to fly and given the money I would hire one today for a run down to France. The fuel capacity gave you plenty of scope if things went pear shaped. My fav trip was Vienna to my southern UK base or the morning Channel Island paper run.
To do this long term you will end up with an over developed sphincter!
Try Synergy at Fairoaks as they do most stuff two crew. This should keep you safe from those middle of the night tired mistakes like turning at the distance but without meeting the height restriction departing Geneva that nearly caught one of my colleagues out. There is a mountain in the way if you were wondering and it was night IMC.
All the best D and F
I did the air taxi thing for a while and yes it was very rewarding, but when I finished I was glad to be leaving it behind. Flying the seneca everywhere on min fuel so you can carry the payload leaves you with far less options. Over the north sea Aberdeen/Newcastle to Stavanger or similar was not fun either.
In perf the engine failure case is not considered below 1500' and you will be departing in much less than that.
The Navajo was truly a lovely aircraft to fly and given the money I would hire one today for a run down to France. The fuel capacity gave you plenty of scope if things went pear shaped. My fav trip was Vienna to my southern UK base or the morning Channel Island paper run.
To do this long term you will end up with an over developed sphincter!
Try Synergy at Fairoaks as they do most stuff two crew. This should keep you safe from those middle of the night tired mistakes like turning at the distance but without meeting the height restriction departing Geneva that nearly caught one of my colleagues out. There is a mountain in the way if you were wondering and it was night IMC.
All the best D and F
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A.T.W,
No no not in the slightest, the grass is not always greener and while i do love my job and get to work with some very very clever people, I still wish i could just have done what you are wishing to do.
Its just a view from the other side thats all.
The very best of luck I hope you reach your goal, one thing, never be afraid to question and remember have fun.
RJ
No no not in the slightest, the grass is not always greener and while i do love my job and get to work with some very very clever people, I still wish i could just have done what you are wishing to do.
Its just a view from the other side thats all.
The very best of luck I hope you reach your goal, one thing, never be afraid to question and remember have fun.
RJ