Pleasure flights with CPL and Flying club aircraft!
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Pleasure flights with CPL and Flying club aircraft!
I am wondering if it is possible to arrange pleasure flights/sightseeing flights and private flights from A to B using a flying clubs aircraft, and if they have an AOC?
Have CPL, can I sell my own pleasure flights, using/renting their aircraft? In this case I would be free lancing.
The flying school does do much instructing and have some of their own pleasure flights, does the AOC belong to the specific aircraft, or to all the clubs aircraft at that flying club?
Another topic, I have heard trial lessons do not require AOC, but how will a trial lesson be specified? From what I understand you do not require FI to advertise trial lessons.
Looking for an alternative legal way to get up my own total hours.
Have CPL, can I sell my own pleasure flights, using/renting their aircraft? In this case I would be free lancing.
The flying school does do much instructing and have some of their own pleasure flights, does the AOC belong to the specific aircraft, or to all the clubs aircraft at that flying club?
Another topic, I have heard trial lessons do not require AOC, but how will a trial lesson be specified? From what I understand you do not require FI to advertise trial lessons.
Looking for an alternative legal way to get up my own total hours.
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An alternative way I see would be to find interested pax who would:
-become a member of the club (even if not willing to take lessons)
-share flying expenses with you
-travel from A or B to anywhere
Wouldn't everybody, including the CAA, be happy?
-become a member of the club (even if not willing to take lessons)
-share flying expenses with you
-travel from A or B to anywhere
Wouldn't everybody, including the CAA, be happy?
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Yes that could maybe an option. However I would like to believe I at least could have covered the flight hour by the passengers. I guess the "cost" part could be expanded somewhat! Not sure what would be the best way.
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Ok, why are they illegal? Have been searching threads, reading some of CAA information.
Instead of just coming out with a statement, enlighten me please.
As a PPL you can share costs, would assume with a CPL you can get paid. However I also understand for public transport it is also required to have an AOC. I read somewhere trial lessons are ok without the AOC. But are there any additional requirements than the CPL and AOC? If so what?
So please tell me what is illegal about this?
Furthermore do you think because people have CPL, they know every regulation from front to back, Air Law is a subject where you can make research to find out what is legal. I am not just starting doing this without any research.
Instead of just coming out with a statement, enlighten me please.
As a PPL you can share costs, would assume with a CPL you can get paid. However I also understand for public transport it is also required to have an AOC. I read somewhere trial lessons are ok without the AOC. But are there any additional requirements than the CPL and AOC? If so what?
So please tell me what is illegal about this?
Furthermore do you think because people have CPL, they know every regulation from front to back, Air Law is a subject where you can make research to find out what is legal. I am not just starting doing this without any research.
BD,
Please do not do this, you will end up in a lot of trouble. Especially as you have now left an audit trail with your computer. Even if you escape serious problems your potential career will be blighted before it starts.
There are people who will advise you exactly how to do it, but the ones who will give you good advice will charge you for it.
I know it is tough out there but you are better off working the night shift in Tesco and hiring a light twin for your own currency until your particular professional break comes along.
MM
Please do not do this, you will end up in a lot of trouble. Especially as you have now left an audit trail with your computer. Even if you escape serious problems your potential career will be blighted before it starts.
There are people who will advise you exactly how to do it, but the ones who will give you good advice will charge you for it.
I know it is tough out there but you are better off working the night shift in Tesco and hiring a light twin for your own currency until your particular professional break comes along.
MM
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I understand, however I am just asking a question. More important where can I find the information I need?
Also I would not do anything without the AOC holders knowledge or permission. But first I just wanted to get information how this works so all can be legal!
Also PPRUNE is not my only investigation source, but thought I was allowed to ask a question! To get advice of people who maybe have some experience. Maybe I am naive!
Also I would not do anything without the AOC holders knowledge or permission. But first I just wanted to get information how this works so all can be legal!
Also PPRUNE is not my only investigation source, but thought I was allowed to ask a question! To get advice of people who maybe have some experience. Maybe I am naive!
I am wondering if it is possible to arrange pleasure flights/sightseeing flights and private flights from A to B using a flying clubs aircraft, and if they have an AOC?
Have CPL, can I sell my own pleasure flights, using/renting their aircraft? In this case I would be free lancing.
The flying school does do much instructing and have some of their own pleasure flights, does the AOC belong to the specific aircraft, or to all the clubs aircraft at that flying club?
Another topic, I have heard trial lessons do not require AOC, but how will a trial lesson be specified? From what I understand you do not require FI to advertise trial lessons.
Looking for an alternative legal way to get up my own total hours.
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Thanks bingofuel, finally somebody who gave me something that was interesting to read.
I nearly thought I was back in the U.S.S.R, and that I was not allowed to ask a question to gain information and to educate myself.
Very happy for your response Bingofuel.
I do have an additional question, I have been reading CAA's safety leaflet on the AOC issue, and unsure of one thing. Is the AOC issued to the operator or for a specific aircraft that must be owned by the operator?
I nearly thought I was back in the U.S.S.R, and that I was not allowed to ask a question to gain information and to educate myself.
Very happy for your response Bingofuel.
I do have an additional question, I have been reading CAA's safety leaflet on the AOC issue, and unsure of one thing. Is the AOC issued to the operator or for a specific aircraft that must be owned by the operator?
An AOC is issued to the operator and it will specify which aicraft he can operate under the AOC.
However obtaining an AOC is a very lengthy, time consuming expensive process and one would only be issued after the CAA are convinced you have complied with all the requirements of operating the aircraft , crew training, maintenance, FTL's, post holders, premises, finance, and many other things. I think you underestimate the work and cost involved in setting up even a small operation allowing you to do pleasure flights in a SEP , day VFR.
Just look and see how many operators there are for SEP pleasure flights and you will see that it is not really viable, as the cost per seat per flight would be astronomical.
However obtaining an AOC is a very lengthy, time consuming expensive process and one would only be issued after the CAA are convinced you have complied with all the requirements of operating the aircraft , crew training, maintenance, FTL's, post holders, premises, finance, and many other things. I think you underestimate the work and cost involved in setting up even a small operation allowing you to do pleasure flights in a SEP , day VFR.
Just look and see how many operators there are for SEP pleasure flights and you will see that it is not really viable, as the cost per seat per flight would be astronomical.
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Thank Bingofuel,
Yes I see that, not really a good option that way. But thanks for enlightening me, much appreciated!
Would AOC also be required for Cargo transport?
And does anybody know the definition of Aerial work? Am I correct to assume that an AOC is not required for this?
Yes I see that, not really a good option that way. But thanks for enlightening me, much appreciated!
Would AOC also be required for Cargo transport?
And does anybody know the definition of Aerial work? Am I correct to assume that an AOC is not required for this?
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/1428/Summa...009May2010.pdf
edit/ Removed a comment that, on reflection, would be better made via PM.
edit/ Removed a comment that, on reflection, would be better made via PM.
Last edited by Sepp; 11th Aug 2010 at 11:48. Reason: Removed a comment
How about pleasure flights? I am currently flying keeping my hours up (Frozen ATPL). Could you not just take people up for a scenic flight (Non-profit making)??
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From the CAA site, A330ETOPS - you can't. It seems to be a bit more complicated.
From what I read you can not even advertise that you want to cost share a flight. It must be "within" the club. From what I read as soon as you advertise to anyone that you want to cost share outside the flying club, than this is not legal any more.
Makes it kind of funny, you go trough the ATPL's and CPL flight training, and discover you have very little difference from your PPL rights, if any!
Below extraction from the CAA website:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/122/summar..._transport.pdf
"5.3 Exception No 3 - Cost sharing (Article 160)
5.3.1 A flight will be deemed to be a private flight for all purposes if the only payment is a contribution to
the direct costs of the flight (not annual costs) otherwise payable by the pilot in command. This is
provided that (a) no more than four persons (including the pilot) are carried, (b) the pilot pays at
least his proportionate share (e.g. if four persons are carried the pilot must pay at least 25% of the
direct costs) and (c) the flight has not been publicised in any way except within the premises of a
flying club (in which case all the adult persons being carried in the aircraft must be members of that
flying club)."
From what I read you can not even advertise that you want to cost share a flight. It must be "within" the club. From what I read as soon as you advertise to anyone that you want to cost share outside the flying club, than this is not legal any more.
Makes it kind of funny, you go trough the ATPL's and CPL flight training, and discover you have very little difference from your PPL rights, if any!
Below extraction from the CAA website:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/122/summar..._transport.pdf
"5.3 Exception No 3 - Cost sharing (Article 160)
5.3.1 A flight will be deemed to be a private flight for all purposes if the only payment is a contribution to
the direct costs of the flight (not annual costs) otherwise payable by the pilot in command. This is
provided that (a) no more than four persons (including the pilot) are carried, (b) the pilot pays at
least his proportionate share (e.g. if four persons are carried the pilot must pay at least 25% of the
direct costs) and (c) the flight has not been publicised in any way except within the premises of a
flying club (in which case all the adult persons being carried in the aircraft must be members of that
flying club)."
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Makes it kind of funny, you go trough the ATPL's and CPL flight training, and discover you have very little difference from your PPL rights, if any!
There was a young man who applied for a job with us a while ago, and included on his CV a link to his website, where he appeared to be offering to take people flying for money. There were descriptions of the aircraft 'available' and testimonials from people who had paid to be flown.
A quick phone call to ARE put a stop to all that nonsense, and needless to say he will never work for us.
Put a 'marker' on yourself early in your career at your peril! The aviation world is very small, and some folk in it have memories which would put an elephant to shame...
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Kerling-Approsh KG - thanks - yes good I learn fast, but also at least I checked out what I can and can not do, and not just assumed I could do what I want.
I was aware of the AOC, but wasn't aware of all the nitty gritty details. That's why these forums are good, at gives the rough basics, and then I can find out more details after. I am great-full to everybody has taken the time to respond, I guess enthusiasm and creativity, must be taken with a pinch of reality.
At least I know what to do, what can do and what I will not do!
I was aware of the AOC, but wasn't aware of all the nitty gritty details. That's why these forums are good, at gives the rough basics, and then I can find out more details after. I am great-full to everybody has taken the time to respond, I guess enthusiasm and creativity, must be taken with a pinch of reality.
At least I know what to do, what can do and what I will not do!
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Grey Ops
There are many UK based Operations that offer charter to the public without benefit of a AOC.
For some reason the CAA who have been informed on many occasions, prefer not to get out the big stick.
Even after a well reported accident, that apparantly was a charter, has very little or anything been done to kirb this breach of the ANO.
glf
For some reason the CAA who have been informed on many occasions, prefer not to get out the big stick.
Even after a well reported accident, that apparantly was a charter, has very little or anything been done to kirb this breach of the ANO.
glf
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Legal solution
You as a holder of a professional licence, may receive payment for your flying.
An other person may, (provided it is not you), organise the hire of an aircraft, that you are typed, (if required).
You may fly that aircraft for that person, provided it is a "private" flight, and receive payment for your services.
Within the limitations of your ratings, and basic licence.
You or the other person may not advertise, or otherwise offer for hire the package, it must be a totally private operation.
This does not require an AOC.
glf
An other person may, (provided it is not you), organise the hire of an aircraft, that you are typed, (if required).
You may fly that aircraft for that person, provided it is a "private" flight, and receive payment for your services.
Within the limitations of your ratings, and basic licence.
You or the other person may not advertise, or otherwise offer for hire the package, it must be a totally private operation.
This does not require an AOC.
glf
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I can believe that you are having this conversation dreamer....its horrible to think that you have to ask for advise and information on this subject.
Im sorry to say that its people like you who give the Biz Jet and bad reputation.....
All i can say is I hope you get some common sense soon as not only will your career be in danger but you could cost someone there life!!.............
Im sorry to say that its people like you who give the Biz Jet and bad reputation.....
All i can say is I hope you get some common sense soon as not only will your career be in danger but you could cost someone there life!!.............