Help with our first Biz Jet please.
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Help with our first Biz Jet please.
Again we are asking for your suggestions for the next step in our fleet expansion!! Really we are hoping to use you as a sanity check / second opinion. Current fleet is a C90, couple of B200 and a heap of junk (lawyers involved) J32.
We need to expand with a jet this time. We have three typical flight plans that the aircraft will be expected to reliably fulfill. Loads will be up to 3000 lbs Crew, passengers, stuff, golf clubs etc. Water, poop and fuel are extra weights.
1 Northern Canada, 200 500 Nm sectors, 3 sectors per day, 4/5 days per week. Paved runways only 4500 ft min. Winter flying, 20 hrs of darkness, no hangers for over-night at minus 40C or F. Summer flying, 20 hrs of daylight and insects as big as a bird with huge teeth!!
2- Northern Canada to South Texas and/or Florida panhandle, say 2000 Nm sector. 5500 ft runways at both ends.
3 South Texas to Beef Island BVI, again a 2000 Nm sector. - TUPJ (ICAO) is short 4650 ft x 98 ft. With a 3000 lb lift plus fuel can we make it back or do we need to do a hop for refuel?
Thank you in anticipation for your suggestions and ideas.
We need to expand with a jet this time. We have three typical flight plans that the aircraft will be expected to reliably fulfill. Loads will be up to 3000 lbs Crew, passengers, stuff, golf clubs etc. Water, poop and fuel are extra weights.
1 Northern Canada, 200 500 Nm sectors, 3 sectors per day, 4/5 days per week. Paved runways only 4500 ft min. Winter flying, 20 hrs of darkness, no hangers for over-night at minus 40C or F. Summer flying, 20 hrs of daylight and insects as big as a bird with huge teeth!!
2- Northern Canada to South Texas and/or Florida panhandle, say 2000 Nm sector. 5500 ft runways at both ends.
3 South Texas to Beef Island BVI, again a 2000 Nm sector. - TUPJ (ICAO) is short 4650 ft x 98 ft. With a 3000 lb lift plus fuel can we make it back or do we need to do a hop for refuel?
Thank you in anticipation for your suggestions and ideas.
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1. Citation V - strong and fast enough, very stable airplane. Costs are not very high, maintenance should be no big problem. Easy to fly, but only De-Ice Boots and no Bleed Air for Antiice. Donīt know exactly if later versions (Encore, Encore+) use Bleed Air for antiice, would be an advantage in Canada for sure.
2. & 3. Hawker 850XP or 900 - both can do 2000nm with full load, lots of space, a good airplane. But i donīt have my POH here atm, the short runways could be a problem with high payload and hot temp.
But itīs definately worth checking the Cessna Fleet for 2. & 3. as well in my Opinion
2. & 3. Hawker 850XP or 900 - both can do 2000nm with full load, lots of space, a good airplane. But i donīt have my POH here atm, the short runways could be a problem with high payload and hot temp.
But itīs definately worth checking the Cessna Fleet for 2. & 3. as well in my Opinion
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KirkyMs, not a lot in the Cessna fleet that can haul 3,000 lbs and a Hawker can't handle golfclubs. Elastoboy you are looking at a Challenger or Falcon 900. Being in Canada, the obvious choice is a Challenger. Give Bombardier a call, they will run the scenarios for you.
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3000 lbs and 2000 nm is hard to reconcile with flying frequent short hops in Northern Canada... you don't exactly have a 5 mile straight-in final in many places. Something like a G350 could technically do it all, but you may want to consider 2 airplanes, a Citation XLS or Lear 31 for the short hops and a mid-size jet like a Falcon 50 for the longer range.
At gross weight a mid-size or larger b-jet will have a hard time with 4,650 feet - you won't see ISA there too often - but you can always stop in FLL on the way back from BVI.
At gross weight a mid-size or larger b-jet will have a hard time with 4,650 feet - you won't see ISA there too often - but you can always stop in FLL on the way back from BVI.
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Great suggestions!
Thank you for all your input so far.
Yes a CL300 is on the short list. Our concern is tech support, aircraft could be sensitive to too much technology ie. AOG. and "Noisey" cabin.
Great short field performance and lots of choice on the used market.
G200 is also a possibility, but not confident about long duration schedules in the cold north.
We really do need the 3000 lbs load in the Northern sectors as oil guys and their "stuff" are big, hairy and heavy.
Good cabin/cockpit ergonomics are essential - but leather luxury is really not practical when bags of core samples are dumped on the seats as well as the butts of oily overalls.
Hawker are also being considered, but real usable cabin space would appear to be an issue.
Three holer is a no no (sorry 900 fans).
Two types for the two different scenarios, will give the bean counter a heart attack!
Please keep the ideas flowing.
Thank you - Eboy.
Yes a CL300 is on the short list. Our concern is tech support, aircraft could be sensitive to too much technology ie. AOG. and "Noisey" cabin.
Great short field performance and lots of choice on the used market.
G200 is also a possibility, but not confident about long duration schedules in the cold north.
We really do need the 3000 lbs load in the Northern sectors as oil guys and their "stuff" are big, hairy and heavy.
Good cabin/cockpit ergonomics are essential - but leather luxury is really not practical when bags of core samples are dumped on the seats as well as the butts of oily overalls.
Hawker are also being considered, but real usable cabin space would appear to be an issue.
Three holer is a no no (sorry 900 fans).
Two types for the two different scenarios, will give the bean counter a heart attack!
Please keep the ideas flowing.
Thank you - Eboy.
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Have a look at the 604, you'll get about 1,500 lbs more in a 604 compared to the 300 and they have been used for donkey's years up there in the frozen North. Good local support too. There is some good value airplanes out there right now. You can get a utility interior for the oil runs and the leather seats for the runs down South.
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I flew single pilot in Ultras/Encores....I did 2200 lbs of people and bags, 2000 NM which equates to ten Pax + luggage...if you are talking about 3000 lbs....15 people? Seriously?...on a regular basis?
If that was the case you would have the highest load factors in the fleet...I read somewhere that GIVs take off with an average of 4 pax....
If your moving up from turboprops to large jets...that's a big move and one not to take lightly...your talking 1 million dollar planes to 10 million dollar planes...with operation costs to match....
Might I suggest you find someone that isn't selling you a plane, that actually runs a flight dept, that doesn't need a job to talk to you and give you a sounding board...
If that was the case you would have the highest load factors in the fleet...I read somewhere that GIVs take off with an average of 4 pax....
If your moving up from turboprops to large jets...that's a big move and one not to take lightly...your talking 1 million dollar planes to 10 million dollar planes...with operation costs to match....
Might I suggest you find someone that isn't selling you a plane, that actually runs a flight dept, that doesn't need a job to talk to you and give you a sounding board...
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Hawker 4000
What is your budget?
Hawker 4000 is outstanding performer on short runways (much better than CL300) and is able to fly 8 pax (1600 lbs payload) with full fuel (3200 NM range). Unfortunately none of them available on pre-owned market.
Yogi
Hawker 4000 is outstanding performer on short runways (much better than CL300) and is able to fly 8 pax (1600 lbs payload) with full fuel (3200 NM range). Unfortunately none of them available on pre-owned market.
Yogi
Last edited by Yogibaboo; 15th Jul 2010 at 20:20.
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Good questions - hopefully here are some answers.
Our field teams will be the primary user of the aircraft - each team is five people and every one of them weighs > 230 lbs in their beach gear. Add to that the test gear, equipment and supplies and tins of beer, plus the three crew (two pilots plus one gopher) then 3000 lbs is not unrealistic. Thankfully the opeartional costs will be passed on to (and payed for by) our customers - . Yes it is a big jump from twins to jets, but the perceived image by our customers, is if we can support them with jet operations then we will be quicker to respond (I know 400 Nm in a jet vs twin turbo is about the same block time, but image/service is everything).
Budget is in the 10-15 mill range. Yes our utilization is high, very high. Our bean counter uses 20% depreciation linear per year. If the unit lasts 8 years then we do very well with the annual dollars.
The trips down south are 30% business and 70% pleasure, but I still want to use 3000 lbs load.
Hope this answers some of the points.
Thank you - Eboy.
Budget is in the 10-15 mill range. Yes our utilization is high, very high. Our bean counter uses 20% depreciation linear per year. If the unit lasts 8 years then we do very well with the annual dollars.
The trips down south are 30% business and 70% pleasure, but I still want to use 3000 lbs load.
Hope this answers some of the points.
Thank you - Eboy.
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Mechanik, a Sovereign won't haul 3,000 lbs and enough fuel to cover 2,000 nm.
Rough figures
Climb and Descent 1600 in 0.8 at 43,000/heavy it just stops maybe 415TAS about 4.2 hours at 43,000 then 45,000 averaging 1400 per hour plus APU/TAXI comes to just under 8,000 block fuel. 1500 reserve if you're brave
BOW of say 18,000 for the right aircraft, max ramp weight 30,550 max brake release weight 30,300 problem is zero fuel weight 20,800 but this is as near as you'll get in the sector. Rear baggage is huge and'll take nearly half a metric ton.
Theres probably enough fat in there for headwinds/ISA+/getting jerked around by ATC, but not all three.
In addition coming from TP's the 680 is cessna simple.
It will also get out of your short field TUPJ in still air at +40 degrees at MTOM.
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It seems I am a liar
"Unfortunately none of them available on pre-owned market"
It seems I am a liar.
2009 HAWKER 4000 Jet Aircraft For Sale At Controller.com
IMHO if you have tough negotiator working for you, in this hard times, that particular plane is in your price range.
Yogi
It seems I am a liar.
2009 HAWKER 4000 Jet Aircraft For Sale At Controller.com
IMHO if you have tough negotiator working for you, in this hard times, that particular plane is in your price range.
Yogi
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Be careful with the exec jet options being discussed here. It's simply not realistic to assume you can just dump "stuff" in the cabin. For example the baggage bay on a 604 (from memory which has been pickled by excess grape juice) has a capacity of 500 Lbs.
The average 604 interior is for 8-10 people. Assume 10 of you 230Lb Gorillas and 500Lbs of cargo, you are still short of your 3000Lbs.
If you are seriously considering dumping "stuff" in the cabin, you need to be talking to TC to see what they will let you get away with.
It might be that you need something like a combi CRJ (if such a thing exists) and even then I'm not sure it will do 2000nm's.
Good luck.
GW
The average 604 interior is for 8-10 people. Assume 10 of you 230Lb Gorillas and 500Lbs of cargo, you are still short of your 3000Lbs.
If you are seriously considering dumping "stuff" in the cabin, you need to be talking to TC to see what they will let you get away with.
It might be that you need something like a combi CRJ (if such a thing exists) and even then I'm not sure it will do 2000nm's.
Good luck.
GW
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The 300 sounds right. As for the noisy cabin: get the divider between galley and cabin and the cabin is way quieter...but as G-Spot said, the Sovereign could do that as well. Our Sovereigns empty weight is 17619 lbs with a pax seats and the large galley. MZFW is 20450, means 2831lbs for payload+crew...
From memory, the CL300 has a baggage compartment weight limit of around 320kgs (700lbs) so a lot of your 3000lbs payload requirement would need to go in the cabin (not good for safety...).
The F2000 on the other hand has a baggage compartment weight limit of (IIRC) around 1700lbs thereby giving you a much more effective baggage compartment to keep things out of the cabin.
The F2000s baggage compartment is also physically bigger.
A good condition "classic" F2000 would probably come into your budget.
The F2000 classic that I operated was more reliable than the CL300 I flew. Dassaults support was also better than Bombardiers.
The technology on the CL300 was nice (displays etc) and climbing straight to FL430 at mtow was nice. The F2000 at mtow was "only" FL410.
Of the two, I would probably opt for a good low time F2000 classic if it can be got within the budget. I think it meets your essential criteria more closely than the CL300 wrt to payload.
The cabin of the F2000 would probably be more appealing to your "big miner types" as it is marginally larger than the CL300s.
Someone who has the books will need to confirm the runway performance aspect.
Cheers
The F2000 on the other hand has a baggage compartment weight limit of (IIRC) around 1700lbs thereby giving you a much more effective baggage compartment to keep things out of the cabin.
The F2000s baggage compartment is also physically bigger.
A good condition "classic" F2000 would probably come into your budget.
The F2000 classic that I operated was more reliable than the CL300 I flew. Dassaults support was also better than Bombardiers.
The technology on the CL300 was nice (displays etc) and climbing straight to FL430 at mtow was nice. The F2000 at mtow was "only" FL410.
Of the two, I would probably opt for a good low time F2000 classic if it can be got within the budget. I think it meets your essential criteria more closely than the CL300 wrt to payload.
The cabin of the F2000 would probably be more appealing to your "big miner types" as it is marginally larger than the CL300s.
Someone who has the books will need to confirm the runway performance aspect.
Cheers
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Can't help but think a conventional biz-jet won't cut the mustard here.
Have you considered a Dornier 328 Jet? I've never been near one personally but have heard good things about them and I'm told the baggage compartment's enormous. I just Googled the following which seems to fit the bill. Of course you don't have to have all 34 seats in it...
Variant Fairchild Dornier 328JET
Crew 3 (2 pilots + flight attendant)
Seating capacity 32 to 34
Length
Wing span
Height 21.28 m (69 ft 10 in)
20.98 m (68 ft 10 in)
7.24 m (23 ft 9 in)
Engines (2x)
Thrust (2x) P&W PW306B
26.9 kN (6,050 lbf)
Max Zero Fuel Weight (ZFW) 13,070 kg (28,814 lb)
Max payload weight 3,500 kg (7,716 lb)
Max Take Off Weight 15,660 kg (34,524 lb)
Maximum range 3,705 km (2,000 nmi)
Maximum cruising speed 405 knots (750 km/h)
Flight ceiling 35,000 ft
Certification Date July 1999
Good luck,
BIG etc.
Have you considered a Dornier 328 Jet? I've never been near one personally but have heard good things about them and I'm told the baggage compartment's enormous. I just Googled the following which seems to fit the bill. Of course you don't have to have all 34 seats in it...
Variant Fairchild Dornier 328JET
Crew 3 (2 pilots + flight attendant)
Seating capacity 32 to 34
Length
Wing span
Height 21.28 m (69 ft 10 in)
20.98 m (68 ft 10 in)
7.24 m (23 ft 9 in)
Engines (2x)
Thrust (2x) P&W PW306B
26.9 kN (6,050 lbf)
Max Zero Fuel Weight (ZFW) 13,070 kg (28,814 lb)
Max payload weight 3,500 kg (7,716 lb)
Max Take Off Weight 15,660 kg (34,524 lb)
Maximum range 3,705 km (2,000 nmi)
Maximum cruising speed 405 knots (750 km/h)
Flight ceiling 35,000 ft
Certification Date July 1999
Good luck,
BIG etc.