Paper free cockpits
I don't see the problem here. Purchase two Fujitsu tablet computers and run JeppView/Flite Deck--done! About $5000 plus the Jepp subscriptions. And you can take them to the hotel for flight planning, surfing the web, Ppruning or your fave porn. Works in anything, just have a STC for power outlets to recharge them.
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johns7022
When I'm in the states I also purchase the NOAA charts so I don't have to be an idiot printing them out. Unfortunately, here in Europe, we don't have the luxury of something like that. We have to subscribe for our plates and charts so the money is not an issue, we have to pay anyway. If you had to update the NOAA charts on a regular basis for the entire USA, or the world even, I think you would very quickly change your mind and start printing (like an idiot) what you need, when you need it. I have a Cannon portable printer connected via bluetooth to the EFB, at the tap of my finger the let down plates I need are printed, just can't get the EFB to stay in the chart clip on the column
With the Jeppessen disc's loaded into a tablet PC you get access to all the plates, very accurate flight planning, and, with the addition of a $100 GPS remote sensor, a moving map display to equal any other. I have had a few dark nights over Africa, dog tired, being vectored all over. To see the a/c position displayed on an area chart is very, very nice indeed.
Seriously, you guy's over there don't know how lucky you are, here, no NOAA, we get charged for anything remotely connected to aviation, and don't even think about the price of gas
With the Jeppessen disc's loaded into a tablet PC you get access to all the plates, very accurate flight planning, and, with the addition of a $100 GPS remote sensor, a moving map display to equal any other. I have had a few dark nights over Africa, dog tired, being vectored all over. To see the a/c position displayed on an area chart is very, very nice indeed.
Seriously, you guy's over there don't know how lucky you are, here, no NOAA, we get charged for anything remotely connected to aviation, and don't even think about the price of gas
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I will not respond further,
If you had to update the NOAA charts on a regular basis for the entire USA, or the world even, I think you would very quickly change your mind and start printing (like an idiot) what you need, when you need it.
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I don't see the problem here. Purchase two Fujitsu tablet computers and run JeppView/Flite Deck--done! About $5000 plus the Jepp subscriptions.
Works like a beauty, never had any problem. Still, got fed up with printing paper to use as backup and got an Irex Iliad (ePaper). If you get two tablets I see no reason to keep printing after your "transition period".
As for the iPad, ask Jeppesen if they'd rewrite their Navsuite so you can get an iPad
Seriously, you guy's over there don't know how lucky you are, here, no NOAA, we get charged for anything remotely connected to aviation, and don't even think about the price of gas
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This is better than a late night movie!
Wow...how about everyone play nice here?
Been using Class 1 EFB's since 2001. No problems, no worries, no legality issues. In our late model CL604, we have in the cockpit two Compaq tablet PCs, each loaded with Jeppview and FlightDeck. We paid the princely sum of $1100 USD for each (on sale at Best Buy). It's not necessary to use an "Aviation Approved" $5,000 EFB. We have a worldwide electronic chart subscription from Jeppesen, and it comes with paper enroute charts, area charts, notams, etc. The entire world coverage went from 16 big leather Jepp binders down to just 4, and those are not stuffed full, either. I could probably squeeze it all into 3 binders, but what the heck. Big savings on space, and certainly a bit lighter weight. Procedurally, both EFBs are powered and displaying the appropriate chart at all times during the departure and arrival phases of flight. Enroute, we put them into "sleep" mode. Never had an issue on battery life that way in over two years of operation now, and that is on 8-hour flights! It just so happens that we did get an STC mod to have two power outlets ("mains" to the UK folks) mounted behind each pilot seat, so in a pinch, we can keep them powered if the batteries do get low or we want to charge them up while we have the APU running on the ground.
I bought a 3rd tablet PC and a printer as a backup means of producing charts, but they are still in their boxes under the divan in the back and have never seen the light of day. For those of you who are not aware of it, eletronic chart subscriptions from Jeppesen are much cheaper now than the paper subscriptions, and the difference in cost for world coverage will easily pay for two EFBs in only a year or two at most!
If you want to spend the money for one of the smaller Flight Deck Resources EFBs, they will fit on the yoke of many aircraft (I made a nifty velcro mount for each of them on our last aircraft - worked great)!
Been using Class 1 EFB's since 2001. No problems, no worries, no legality issues. In our late model CL604, we have in the cockpit two Compaq tablet PCs, each loaded with Jeppview and FlightDeck. We paid the princely sum of $1100 USD for each (on sale at Best Buy). It's not necessary to use an "Aviation Approved" $5,000 EFB. We have a worldwide electronic chart subscription from Jeppesen, and it comes with paper enroute charts, area charts, notams, etc. The entire world coverage went from 16 big leather Jepp binders down to just 4, and those are not stuffed full, either. I could probably squeeze it all into 3 binders, but what the heck. Big savings on space, and certainly a bit lighter weight. Procedurally, both EFBs are powered and displaying the appropriate chart at all times during the departure and arrival phases of flight. Enroute, we put them into "sleep" mode. Never had an issue on battery life that way in over two years of operation now, and that is on 8-hour flights! It just so happens that we did get an STC mod to have two power outlets ("mains" to the UK folks) mounted behind each pilot seat, so in a pinch, we can keep them powered if the batteries do get low or we want to charge them up while we have the APU running on the ground.
I bought a 3rd tablet PC and a printer as a backup means of producing charts, but they are still in their boxes under the divan in the back and have never seen the light of day. For those of you who are not aware of it, eletronic chart subscriptions from Jeppesen are much cheaper now than the paper subscriptions, and the difference in cost for world coverage will easily pay for two EFBs in only a year or two at most!
If you want to spend the money for one of the smaller Flight Deck Resources EFBs, they will fit on the yoke of many aircraft (I made a nifty velcro mount for each of them on our last aircraft - worked great)!
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A good, current synopsis of paperless cockpits, including both pros,and cons.
http://www.faa.gov/news/safety_brief...0Paperless.pdf
http://www.faa.gov/news/safety_brief...0Paperless.pdf
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I remember running into some Flight Options guys in a Beechjet, they were some of first domestic US guys to be using the EFBs...after letting me play with thier EFBs, they thought that the EFBs didn't really replace the paper in any real beneficial way, especialy at that time being required to keep a set up jepps in the plane as backup...it was a toy.
All that said, they had a nice performance calculator on the EFBs that did some V speed calcs that was nice...
Regarding Guppy's concept of EFBs not being a big cost...for me it's like this...my experience is in Part 91 corporate...where any expense, even lunch, has to be justified...it's a tough sell to walk into an owner's office and convince him that if he can afford a $5 mil jet, that he should be able to pony up $20k for some EFBs...that will get you replaced quickly...maybe 135 and fractional are different, but in Part 91...blowing money for toys only works in so many flight depts...if you got that kinda boss that springs for HUDs, Triple EFIS, two mechanics, and 3 pilots per plane...good for you...but it's been my experience that just keeping the flight dept 'justified' is tough enough....it's not that the boss can't afford the toys, it's the message your sending...that said my salary and longevity in the industry speaks for itself...I know plenty of folded flight depts that were on a spending spree for a couple of years.....
I was fortunate to have been able to explore electronic charts..in my case, I ran the Jepp View off my laptop, and also the NOAA version from the same...laptop was running off 12 v power from the cockpit..
While I transitioned from Jepps to NOAA to get away from updates, the transition to electronic, while interesting and fun(shooting an approach with a laptop on your lap etc)...didn't really prove the benefits...more of a toy really.
Since I fly in real weather, I tended to see more opportunities for power, screen, glitches ect, when paper at worst, just falls on the floor between your feet.
That's not to say, I wouldn't still use electronic on a laptop, vaguely legal, with a power supply while not certifed, certainly it's better then printing a couple of charts, then flying on top hoping you don't have to divert to some field down there with no approach charts..
I can't speak for international ops, nor flying around Europe, but for domestic US, I prefer NOAA, the same disc on my laptop...Flightsoft for planning...very portable, very safe and reliable, and works really good for contract flying where I gotta walk up to a jet, that I no clue as the the chart status on board, if any...
Anyway your cut it...I just see things in the light that if I don't need it, there is really no reason to fight for it, try to justify it....I know pilot's are into toys, and goodies to look at in the cockpit...but I will take the salary that comes from an employer that knows your looking out for his best interest vs the the salary from a guy that feels like he get's a 100k bill per month from all the maintenance, extra pilots, big inspections, downtime and that new pair of EFBs....
All that said, they had a nice performance calculator on the EFBs that did some V speed calcs that was nice...
Regarding Guppy's concept of EFBs not being a big cost...for me it's like this...my experience is in Part 91 corporate...where any expense, even lunch, has to be justified...it's a tough sell to walk into an owner's office and convince him that if he can afford a $5 mil jet, that he should be able to pony up $20k for some EFBs...that will get you replaced quickly...maybe 135 and fractional are different, but in Part 91...blowing money for toys only works in so many flight depts...if you got that kinda boss that springs for HUDs, Triple EFIS, two mechanics, and 3 pilots per plane...good for you...but it's been my experience that just keeping the flight dept 'justified' is tough enough....it's not that the boss can't afford the toys, it's the message your sending...that said my salary and longevity in the industry speaks for itself...I know plenty of folded flight depts that were on a spending spree for a couple of years.....
I was fortunate to have been able to explore electronic charts..in my case, I ran the Jepp View off my laptop, and also the NOAA version from the same...laptop was running off 12 v power from the cockpit..
While I transitioned from Jepps to NOAA to get away from updates, the transition to electronic, while interesting and fun(shooting an approach with a laptop on your lap etc)...didn't really prove the benefits...more of a toy really.
Since I fly in real weather, I tended to see more opportunities for power, screen, glitches ect, when paper at worst, just falls on the floor between your feet.
That's not to say, I wouldn't still use electronic on a laptop, vaguely legal, with a power supply while not certifed, certainly it's better then printing a couple of charts, then flying on top hoping you don't have to divert to some field down there with no approach charts..
I can't speak for international ops, nor flying around Europe, but for domestic US, I prefer NOAA, the same disc on my laptop...Flightsoft for planning...very portable, very safe and reliable, and works really good for contract flying where I gotta walk up to a jet, that I no clue as the the chart status on board, if any...
Anyway your cut it...I just see things in the light that if I don't need it, there is really no reason to fight for it, try to justify it....I know pilot's are into toys, and goodies to look at in the cockpit...but I will take the salary that comes from an employer that knows your looking out for his best interest vs the the salary from a guy that feels like he get's a 100k bill per month from all the maintenance, extra pilots, big inspections, downtime and that new pair of EFBs....
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.it's a tough sell to walk into an owner's office and convince him that if he can afford a $5 mil jet, that he should be able to pony up $20k for some EFBs.
Electronic charts are less expensive than paper charts.
The original poster asked about a paperless cockpit. To this end, the only solution has been given, short of an avionics refit to put the charts on the panel with the primary displays.
You're comparing what you saw years ago to current state of the art paperless cockpits? Especially paperless cockpits that don't require the carriage of paper?
You're presenting the argument of a crew that wasn't carrying paperless...but was carrying both, having to update both, and couldn't have described the benefits of going paperless because they weren't? Not reallya good argument.
How about the opinion of those who are operating paperless, with a proper, approved installation...who are actually qualified to comment?
How about the consideration that the original poster has really one direction to go, if he wants paperless, per his request? That would be EFB's.
It also happens to be the most economical, efficient solution.
While I transitioned from Jepps to NOAA to get away from updates, the transition to electronic, while interesting and fun(shooting an approach with a laptop on your lap etc)...didn't really prove the benefits...more of a toy really.
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Guppy - You can't install two approved, installed, ship powered EFBs, with Jepp view for two grand..
Most jets don't have 12volts much less 110 up in the cockpit....a 12v aircraft approved inverter is $1500...not including outlets, cbs, labor, wt/bal, approval....etc....
Flying around in hard IFR with three printed charts or a couple of fujitsus on battery power is more 'internet silliness' that you only find on these forums.
Most jets don't have 12volts much less 110 up in the cockpit....a 12v aircraft approved inverter is $1500...not including outlets, cbs, labor, wt/bal, approval....etc....
Flying around in hard IFR with three printed charts or a couple of fujitsus on battery power is more 'internet silliness' that you only find on these forums.
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Flying around in hard IFR with three printed charts or a couple of fujitsus on battery power is more 'internet silliness' that you only find on these forums.
Still recommended to have onboard power.
Sure, if you want an STC'd product it may get expensive, however your avionics shop should be able to find a solution to install this legally:
12 to 32 VDC Input Adapters for Fujitsu (For 12-32VDC Input Systems) LifeBook, B series, P1610, E53xx, E61xx, E65xx series, X7595 series, Stylistic ST4000, 3400, 2300, 1200, Point 1600, 510
If not, about time to look for another shop
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Well, the Citation Sovereign runs on Windows 2000 (the entire avionics, MAU 1-4).
Scary, innit?
Scary, innit?
My FO's an ex networking IT Guy and once when on to Team Sovereign got them to admit its actually windows NT!!!!
Talking to Cessna......
FO: "Oh Sh1t - im not going to get the blue screen of death at 47,000 ft am I"
Team Sov: "No definetely not"
FO: "You sure............"
Team Sov: " Yes we've changed it for a black one.........
The GNS-XLS is certified on the 550 but only with the two tube EFIS from the later II's.
I fly EPIC on the 680 and also run the budget on the aircraft, I still cant let the paper charts go, find them easier to brief off, never get embarrased with ATC. I know what its like accounting for every penny, i also like you by the sounds of it treat the budget like my own money - which the boss appreciates.
When we had the Excel we looked at it but even at £5k for three tablets a jepps subsciption and some a/c mods we couldn't really justify it.
Electronic charts aren't the utopic answer you think they are.....
Having said that some sort of GPS linked Laptop with charts on would be adviseable, we got a door open caption at 43,000 north of the arctic circle simply being able to see which airports were near and being able to bring up a lot of info on all the div options quickly easily was good especially when ATC were giving us landing options which all sounded like a random collection of consonants with very few vowels.
The enroute charts only depict 4000ft airports iirc.
They're putting EPIC in 550's now, it would be expensive not only on install but your data costs a little more than a Jepps subsciption.....like x 3
Guppy - calm down it could be a good thread this if you let it
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Gspot -
Interesting comment on the EFIS/GNS being Windows based..
I managed/flew an Ultra that had a Primus 1000/GNS-XL setup...worked fine, and 'just being me' I wanted to figure out how to modify the MFD checklist...turns out Honeywell didn't support it, and of course the software was no where to be found...well I was given the link/software, that I later found out was like $5000...so I modified the checklist to recognize things like 'Enroute - Check O2/Mask' etc.
That software was Windows based, and silly as this sounds, can only be ran on my old Win 3.1 laptop, that's how old that software is.
I managed/flew an Ultra that had a Primus 1000/GNS-XL setup...worked fine, and 'just being me' I wanted to figure out how to modify the MFD checklist...turns out Honeywell didn't support it, and of course the software was no where to be found...well I was given the link/software, that I later found out was like $5000...so I modified the checklist to recognize things like 'Enroute - Check O2/Mask' etc.
That software was Windows based, and silly as this sounds, can only be ran on my old Win 3.1 laptop, that's how old that software is.
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Evenif EPIC has "windows" it is not MS-Windows based, the OS is called DEOS, unix like based, but totally independent; still complying to a point to POSIX 1740, and of course C2 cert.
The maintenance interface ( the laptop) is windows based (NT of course), mainly because of the commonality of the GUI and the POSIX norm. EPIC is an highly parrallel architecture, based on timing sync ( the infamous NIC/NIM); the blank ( DU failure) or red crossed ( AGM failure); are just a mean of triggering resync and let pilots in the loop. ( I can see I have lost something). EPIC code could ( and can) get all this automated.
When the all screens out happened, few years ago, ( all types); it was traced down to neutronic exposition, and memory data corruption, the solution, ( even if not satisfactory), was to stop monitoring the unused memory, reducing the likelyhood of the "black screens of death".
Sorry for the MS-Windows blokes... but besides the EFB's or the maintenance laptop, no MS-Windows on board...No Apple as well hopefully...
The maintenance interface ( the laptop) is windows based (NT of course), mainly because of the commonality of the GUI and the POSIX norm. EPIC is an highly parrallel architecture, based on timing sync ( the infamous NIC/NIM); the blank ( DU failure) or red crossed ( AGM failure); are just a mean of triggering resync and let pilots in the loop. ( I can see I have lost something). EPIC code could ( and can) get all this automated.
When the all screens out happened, few years ago, ( all types); it was traced down to neutronic exposition, and memory data corruption, the solution, ( even if not satisfactory), was to stop monitoring the unused memory, reducing the likelyhood of the "black screens of death".
Sorry for the MS-Windows blokes... but besides the EFB's or the maintenance laptop, no MS-Windows on board...No Apple as well hopefully...
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Guppy - calm down it could be a good thread this if you let it
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If calmness is "really irrelevant", surely, confrontational is not. There are more than one opinions expresed here and they all have thier virtues according to individual preferences and budgets. G-Spots got it right, let a calm discussion continue, who knows what we may learn.
Last edited by Bugcrusher; 9th May 2010 at 11:30.
Paperless charts
Flying a Private Part 91 Business Turboprop single pilot in Eu.
I got one of these
SOLIDFX | FX10
a couple of months ago as I was sick of updating and carrying paper charts:
Pros: light, compact, good sunlight readability, large screen, easy to read. Quick online updates.
Con:
- Battery does not seem to last advertised 10 hours.
- If you let the battery run out it can take 1 - 2 hours on charge before it will start again...
- Screen is fragile - mine broke despite being stored in optional extra protective case.
- Will only work with special stylus - don't drop it!!
My SOP is to have the solid fx as primary display with a laptop & Jepp Flightdeck to hand as a backup...
I got one of these
SOLIDFX | FX10
a couple of months ago as I was sick of updating and carrying paper charts:
Pros: light, compact, good sunlight readability, large screen, easy to read. Quick online updates.
Con:
- Battery does not seem to last advertised 10 hours.
- If you let the battery run out it can take 1 - 2 hours on charge before it will start again...
- Screen is fragile - mine broke despite being stored in optional extra protective case.
- Will only work with special stylus - don't drop it!!
My SOP is to have the solid fx as primary display with a laptop & Jepp Flightdeck to hand as a backup...
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Hum,
It must be a bit of a squash in the Turbo Commander.
I have tried the iRex reader and found it quite good, if only I could find an easy way to
load the charts from Jeppview.
There was somebody on here some time back who said he could do it but I cannot get
in touch with him.
Has anyone mastered it?
It must be a bit of a squash in the Turbo Commander.
I have tried the iRex reader and found it quite good, if only I could find an easy way to
load the charts from Jeppview.
There was somebody on here some time back who said he could do it but I cannot get
in touch with him.
Has anyone mastered it?
Irex charts
Hi, yes, it is a bit tight up front, esp if the owner wants to fly... however, better now I don't have to wrestle with 6 Jepp volumes in the aisle...
I load charts to the FX10 directly from the internet via jeppesen services (same programme one uses to update a G4/'530 chip). If you have a jeppview subscription I think its not a lot extra to have this facility.
Currently using a laptop to run flightdeck & looking for a better way ... what do you guys use?
I load charts to the FX10 directly from the internet via jeppesen services (same programme one uses to update a G4/'530 chip). If you have a jeppview subscription I think its not a lot extra to have this facility.
Currently using a laptop to run flightdeck & looking for a better way ... what do you guys use?