Safety pilot's?
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Safety pilot's?
Hi guys,
Does anyone need or know anyone that would offer the chance to do some safety pilot volunteering?
I have a job flying skydivers at the moment but am looking to do some safety pilot stuff in order to gain some more experience / a foot in a door for the future.
I'm fATPL, 730hrs with a fair amount of turboprop & MEP time - please PM if you would like more details.
Cheers in advance
Does anyone need or know anyone that would offer the chance to do some safety pilot volunteering?
I have a job flying skydivers at the moment but am looking to do some safety pilot stuff in order to gain some more experience / a foot in a door for the future.
I'm fATPL, 730hrs with a fair amount of turboprop & MEP time - please PM if you would like more details.
Cheers in advance
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Isn;t the idea of a safety pilot based on the fact that the safety pilot is qualified on the aircraft? It sounds like you would be less qualified than those you want to assist......
Doesn't make sense, or am I missing something?
Mutt
Doesn't make sense, or am I missing something?
Mutt
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Some operators using single crew certified aircraft, operate a multi-crew environment by way of a Pilots assistant. These assistants, usually PPL holders, assist the commanders management of the aircraft by operating the radio, keeping the plog up to date, and locating the correct Jeppesens !!!
They are also useful in liaising with the passengers. (serving the coffee).
King Air B200's are the only ones I know of, altough I'm sure someone will be along shortly to add other types!
They are also useful in liaising with the passengers. (serving the coffee).
King Air B200's are the only ones I know of, altough I'm sure someone will be along shortly to add other types!
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From the ANO Amendment 2/2009:
Commercial air transport (CAT) flight’ means a flight which is required to be operated in accordance with EU-OPS and an aircraft flies for the purpose of commercial air transport if the flight is a commercial air transport flight.
Public transport’ (PT) has the meaning assigned to it by article 260.
If a King Air is operated PT then, as per Article 45, its flight crew must consist of at least 2 pilots.
If it is operated as CAT, under EU-OPS, then all flight crew must be qualified in accordance with EU-OPS Subpart N.
Commercial air transport (CAT) flight’ means a flight which is required to be operated in accordance with EU-OPS and an aircraft flies for the purpose of commercial air transport if the flight is a commercial air transport flight.
Public transport’ (PT) has the meaning assigned to it by article 260.
If a King Air is operated PT then, as per Article 45, its flight crew must consist of at least 2 pilots.
If it is operated as CAT, under EU-OPS, then all flight crew must be qualified in accordance with EU-OPS Subpart N.
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So how do all these Kings airs flying about only have one crew member on board ???
So if we just say its AOC flying subpart G/EEk AMD 1 EU OPS Part 1 Aerial work/charter.
Crew members
(a) An operator shall ensure that all operating flight and cabin crew members have been trained in, and are proficient to
perform, their assigned duties.
E.g making coffee
Don Coyote could you please give exact upto date ref EASA for us all to have a look.....cheers
So if we just say its AOC flying subpart G/EEk AMD 1 EU OPS Part 1 Aerial work/charter.
Crew members
(a) An operator shall ensure that all operating flight and cabin crew members have been trained in, and are proficient to
perform, their assigned duties.
E.g making coffee
Don Coyote could you please give exact upto date ref EASA for us all to have a look.....cheers
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There are a lot of Public Transport flights under EU-Ops which don't require two pilots because they are turboprops under 5700kgs.
King Air B200's are just one example.
You lost me there!
King Air B200's are just one example.
Commercial air transport (CAT) flight’ means a flight which is required to be operated in accordance with EU-OPS and an aircraft flies for the purpose of commercial air transport if the flight is a commercial air transport flight.
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Why can't we have Pilot's assistants now? We always used to.
When I was flying Bandits, we used Pilots Assistants all the time. they were able to build up hours on the empty sectors.
vanpilot - I'm curious, please can you tell me what G/EEk is? sorry for being thick.
Anyone - what is the difference between Commercial Air Transport & Public Transport? I thought it was the same thing????? Confused of Croydon. Thanks.
When I was flying Bandits, we used Pilots Assistants all the time. they were able to build up hours on the empty sectors.
vanpilot - I'm curious, please can you tell me what G/EEk is? sorry for being thick.
Anyone - what is the difference between Commercial Air Transport & Public Transport? I thought it was the same thing????? Confused of Croydon. Thanks.
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Vanpilot,
I am sorry but I do not know what you mean by subpart G/EEk AMD 1 EU OPS Part 1 Aerial work/charter. Subpart G of EU-OPS is reference to Performance Class A aircraft however if you are referring to EASA Implementing rules then that does not apply until 2012. The King Air may be operated CAT with a single pilot provided it has a serviceable autopilot IAW EU-OPS 1.655, if it is not operated IAW EU-OPS but operated PT IAW the ANO then the minimum crew of the King Air is 2
Arkwright,
Sorry if my quote confused you but that was a direct copy of the definition of CAT from the Air Navigation Order. The difference between the two is explained by the following which is a direct copy from the 2009 version of CAP393:
Explanation of the difference between public transport and commercial air transport
1. In the United Kingdom, the term “public transport” has long been used. This is defined in the Air Navigation Order as any flight on which one or more passengers are carried where valuable consideration has been given or promised for their carriage. A passenger is defined as meaning anyone who is not a member of the flight crew or cabin crew.
2. This public transport definition has been interpreted as having a very wide scope. This is intentional. It includes the typical commercial passenger carrying flight, where a customer buys a ticket to fly from A to B on holiday or business, but also captures a variety of other operations. For example, if an operator is paid to carry a police observer, that observer will be a passenger on the flight, which will be a public transport flight. Similarly where a power company pays for an observer to be carried to inspect power lines or where a television company pays for a camera crew to be carried it will be a public transport flight. So the term “public transport” comprises both the typical commercial passenger carrying flight and an extended range of passenger carrying operations.
3. European law does not use the term public transport. It uses the term “commercial air transport”. This is the carriage by air of passengers, mail and/or cargo for remuneration and/or hire. The phrase “commercial air transport” is part of a wider European legislative framework that is of relevance in this context. Thus, any undertaking operating for the purpose of commercial air transport is required, originally by EC Regulation 2407/92 and
now under EC Regulation 1008/2008, to hold an operating licence. The requirement that those carrying out commercial air transport have an operating licence is an economic approval; there are various financial and insurance requirements which must be met to obtain such a licence.
4. Having regard to the purpose of EC Regulation 2407/92 and now EC Regulation 1008/2008, the description of a commercial air transport operation has been interpreted as capturing the typical commercial passenger carrying flight but not the other types of operation coming within the UK definition of public transport. In most European countries these other types of operation are regulated as “aerial work” rather than as a variety of public transport or commercial air transport.
5. Accordingly, we have two terms: “commercial air transport”, which captures normal commercial passenger operations, and “public transport”, which captures both those operations and also a wider range of operations wherever there is payment for the carriage of a person on board an aircraft who is neither a member of the flight crew nor cabin crew.
6. In the United Kingdom the Air Navigation Order contains a comprehensive set of operating rules applicable to public transport operations. Public transport operators must hold a national air operator’s certificate, which is a safety approval.
7. The EU has now adopted EU-OPS (formally Annex III to EC Regulation 3922/91). This contains a comprehensive set of operating rules applicable to commercial air transport by aeroplanes. Operators of aeroplanes for commercial air transport must hold an EU-OPS air operator certificate. Again, this is a safety approval. However, EU-OPS does not apply to other categories of aircraft such as helicopters, balloons and airships.
8. The Air Navigation Order must now be amended to take account of the existence and application of EU-OPS. This means that the operating requirements in the Air Navigation Order cannot and should not be applied to any commercial air transport operation by an aeroplane which is now regulated by EU-OPS.
9. This has been achieved in two main ways. First, certain articles contain a specific provision disapplying them from any operation which is subject to EU-OPS. Secondly, the definition of public transport has been modified so as to exclude commercial air transport by aeroplanes. This means that any article in the Air Navigation Order which applies to public transport will, by definition, not apply to an operation which is subject to EU-OPS i.e. an operation by an aeroplane for commercial air transport.
10. It may help to consider this issue in the form of a matrix. There are two sets of requirements: EU-OPS for commercial air transport and the Air Navigation Order for public transport. There are two categories of aircraft: aeroplanes and other aircraft such as helicopters, balloons and airships. EU-OPS now applies to commercial air transport by aeroplanes. The Air Navigation Order applies to everything else.
There is then a table but I cannot figure how to make it show correctly on here but it is on Pge 7 of the PDF of CAP393 found at CAP 393: Air Navigation: The Order and the Regulations | Publications | CAA
I am sorry but I do not know what you mean by subpart G/EEk AMD 1 EU OPS Part 1 Aerial work/charter. Subpart G of EU-OPS is reference to Performance Class A aircraft however if you are referring to EASA Implementing rules then that does not apply until 2012. The King Air may be operated CAT with a single pilot provided it has a serviceable autopilot IAW EU-OPS 1.655, if it is not operated IAW EU-OPS but operated PT IAW the ANO then the minimum crew of the King Air is 2
Arkwright,
Sorry if my quote confused you but that was a direct copy of the definition of CAT from the Air Navigation Order. The difference between the two is explained by the following which is a direct copy from the 2009 version of CAP393:
Explanation of the difference between public transport and commercial air transport
1. In the United Kingdom, the term “public transport” has long been used. This is defined in the Air Navigation Order as any flight on which one or more passengers are carried where valuable consideration has been given or promised for their carriage. A passenger is defined as meaning anyone who is not a member of the flight crew or cabin crew.
2. This public transport definition has been interpreted as having a very wide scope. This is intentional. It includes the typical commercial passenger carrying flight, where a customer buys a ticket to fly from A to B on holiday or business, but also captures a variety of other operations. For example, if an operator is paid to carry a police observer, that observer will be a passenger on the flight, which will be a public transport flight. Similarly where a power company pays for an observer to be carried to inspect power lines or where a television company pays for a camera crew to be carried it will be a public transport flight. So the term “public transport” comprises both the typical commercial passenger carrying flight and an extended range of passenger carrying operations.
3. European law does not use the term public transport. It uses the term “commercial air transport”. This is the carriage by air of passengers, mail and/or cargo for remuneration and/or hire. The phrase “commercial air transport” is part of a wider European legislative framework that is of relevance in this context. Thus, any undertaking operating for the purpose of commercial air transport is required, originally by EC Regulation 2407/92 and
now under EC Regulation 1008/2008, to hold an operating licence. The requirement that those carrying out commercial air transport have an operating licence is an economic approval; there are various financial and insurance requirements which must be met to obtain such a licence.
4. Having regard to the purpose of EC Regulation 2407/92 and now EC Regulation 1008/2008, the description of a commercial air transport operation has been interpreted as capturing the typical commercial passenger carrying flight but not the other types of operation coming within the UK definition of public transport. In most European countries these other types of operation are regulated as “aerial work” rather than as a variety of public transport or commercial air transport.
5. Accordingly, we have two terms: “commercial air transport”, which captures normal commercial passenger operations, and “public transport”, which captures both those operations and also a wider range of operations wherever there is payment for the carriage of a person on board an aircraft who is neither a member of the flight crew nor cabin crew.
6. In the United Kingdom the Air Navigation Order contains a comprehensive set of operating rules applicable to public transport operations. Public transport operators must hold a national air operator’s certificate, which is a safety approval.
7. The EU has now adopted EU-OPS (formally Annex III to EC Regulation 3922/91). This contains a comprehensive set of operating rules applicable to commercial air transport by aeroplanes. Operators of aeroplanes for commercial air transport must hold an EU-OPS air operator certificate. Again, this is a safety approval. However, EU-OPS does not apply to other categories of aircraft such as helicopters, balloons and airships.
8. The Air Navigation Order must now be amended to take account of the existence and application of EU-OPS. This means that the operating requirements in the Air Navigation Order cannot and should not be applied to any commercial air transport operation by an aeroplane which is now regulated by EU-OPS.
9. This has been achieved in two main ways. First, certain articles contain a specific provision disapplying them from any operation which is subject to EU-OPS. Secondly, the definition of public transport has been modified so as to exclude commercial air transport by aeroplanes. This means that any article in the Air Navigation Order which applies to public transport will, by definition, not apply to an operation which is subject to EU-OPS i.e. an operation by an aeroplane for commercial air transport.
10. It may help to consider this issue in the form of a matrix. There are two sets of requirements: EU-OPS for commercial air transport and the Air Navigation Order for public transport. There are two categories of aircraft: aeroplanes and other aircraft such as helicopters, balloons and airships. EU-OPS now applies to commercial air transport by aeroplanes. The Air Navigation Order applies to everything else.
There is then a table but I cannot figure how to make it show correctly on here but it is on Pge 7 of the PDF of CAP393 found at CAP 393: Air Navigation: The Order and the Regulations | Publications | CAA
Last edited by Don Coyote; 23rd Feb 2010 at 06:51.
Can't do better than DC's last post, mate! 
... although I would add that quite a few "unpaid" activities involving pax (the words "gratuitously carried" have remained in the rules) may or may not also be definable as "public transport" depending on whether they satisfy one or more of the exemptions in Part 34.
God help us if the UK tries to paste these arcane PT rules on top of the "new" OPS, currently under consideration. Imho, they are well past their sell-by date.
---
Mind you, all this is miles off topic... I thought the term "safety pilot" was coined to massage the ego of the PPL-holding owner who wanted to play at 'engine drivers' in a SP jet.
Cheers,
Sepp.
... although I would add that quite a few "unpaid" activities involving pax (the words "gratuitously carried" have remained in the rules) may or may not also be definable as "public transport" depending on whether they satisfy one or more of the exemptions in Part 34.God help us if the UK tries to paste these arcane PT rules on top of the "new" OPS, currently under consideration. Imho, they are well past their sell-by date.
---
Mind you, all this is miles off topic... I thought the term "safety pilot" was coined to massage the ego of the PPL-holding owner who wanted to play at 'engine drivers' in a SP jet.
Cheers,
Sepp.
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Sepp, thanks for bringing us back on topic.
Going back to the above where Awkwright refers to a multi-crew operation, then they would have to be qualified as flight crew and that would depend on whether the aircraft was operated as PT or CAT.
PT would require 2 pilots anyway and CAT would require flight crew qualified in accordance with EU-OPS Subpart N.
Unless anyone can show me otherwise, I cannot see anywhere in the ANO or EU-OPS that allows for an unqualified, non type rated person to operate as flight crew in the safety pilot role described above.
Going back to the above where Awkwright refers to a multi-crew operation, then they would have to be qualified as flight crew and that would depend on whether the aircraft was operated as PT or CAT.
PT would require 2 pilots anyway and CAT would require flight crew qualified in accordance with EU-OPS Subpart N.
Unless anyone can show me otherwise, I cannot see anywhere in the ANO or EU-OPS that allows for an unqualified, non type rated person to operate as flight crew in the safety pilot role described above.
Well, certainly I would have thought that anyone likely to be required to manipulate the controls of an a/c ought to be trained to operate the beast in question as required by type or class rating rules, as appropriate... and if operating multi-crew, that ought to include MCC, etc.
As regards the B200 - I'm not entirely sure there is such a thing as a "B200 type rating", for the 'safety' pilot* to hold... Obviously, SPA turbo-jets and a/c subject to a type rating require two qualified pilots under OPS, but is the B200 not an SPA, operated under a class rating? If so, why does it require a second pilot any more than does a Seneca or PA31? SPA and multi-crew ops thereof are, as you will see, not my sphere of expertise but I understand your point re. operating under PT vs CAT. There are some important differences in the two sets of regs that can easily catch the unwary - that, however, is a whole different subject!
* I still say this is a sap to the unworthy.. you are either in the constituted flight crew in which case you are P1 or P2, or you ain't, so you're a passenger or cabin crew!
As regards the B200 - I'm not entirely sure there is such a thing as a "B200 type rating", for the 'safety' pilot* to hold... Obviously, SPA turbo-jets and a/c subject to a type rating require two qualified pilots under OPS, but is the B200 not an SPA, operated under a class rating? If so, why does it require a second pilot any more than does a Seneca or PA31? SPA and multi-crew ops thereof are, as you will see, not my sphere of expertise but I understand your point re. operating under PT vs CAT. There are some important differences in the two sets of regs that can easily catch the unwary - that, however, is a whole different subject!
* I still say this is a sap to the unworthy.. you are either in the constituted flight crew in which case you are P1 or P2, or you ain't, so you're a passenger or cabin crew!
Sepp
Maybe I've missed what you're driving at, but to answer your question literally;
No. It's a SPA operated under a Type Rating on account of it being a multi-engined turboprop. The difference between it and the aircraft you mention (Seneca/PA31) is simply the type of powerplant.
It is not the only aircraft designed and certificated to be operated by a single pilot that requires a Type Rating in JAA/EASA land. See also Twin Commander 690/695 series, GAF Nomad, early model PA31T Cheyenne etc... turbine powered. (NB the Cheyenne; a TR is required for this turboprop derivative of the TR-less Chieftain, the latter flown under MEP Class privileges).
But I concede that I've probably missed the thrust of your argument...
ref: List of EASA/JAA Class and Type Ratings, whether JOEB'd or non-JOEB'd
edited to add: Cheyenne/Chieftain bit
Maybe I've missed what you're driving at, but to answer your question literally;
Obviously, SPA turbo-jets and a/c subject to a type rating require two qualified pilots under OPS, but is the B200 not an SPA, operated under a class rating?
It is not the only aircraft designed and certificated to be operated by a single pilot that requires a Type Rating in JAA/EASA land. See also Twin Commander 690/695 series, GAF Nomad, early model PA31T Cheyenne etc... turbine powered. (NB the Cheyenne; a TR is required for this turboprop derivative of the TR-less Chieftain, the latter flown under MEP Class privileges).
But I concede that I've probably missed the thrust of your argument...
ref: List of EASA/JAA Class and Type Ratings, whether JOEB'd or non-JOEB'd
edited to add: Cheyenne/Chieftain bit