Czech Citation down in Germany 14 Feb 2010

[Trim Stab]

err no...read the accident prelim report...

I think what Baywatcher meant was that they possibly had an engine failure during the barrel roll manouevre. At least that is the way I read his comment.

[Tugnut]

I also heard that there may have been some issues with crew competency. Lets wait and see what the official report says before pointing the finger at the crew though. You would like to think that no one would be that stupid to deliberately barrel roll a C550 at any time particularly night!

TG

[what next]

Hello!

Lets wait and see what the official report says before pointing the finger at the crew though. You would like to think that no one would be that stupid to deliberately barrel roll a C550 at any time particularly night!

The barrel roll at night is part of the official information released by our German authorities (http://www.bfu-web.de/cln_005/nn_226...s__Header.html ). And yes, having met a few "individuals" over the years I am convinced that you can always find someone stupid enough to do anything. Really anything.

[Tugnut]

Fair enough, I stand corrected. Still be good to see what the FDR throws up though.

Tug

[Avenger]

100hrs jet between them! Hells teeth! I would have thought they would have needed far more just to be an FO let alone a Captain. If the rumours circulating about this incident are anywhere near accurate I suspect there could well be grounds for prosecution. It's sad to say the least, but the suggestion here from the threads is that it was totally avoidable, both in terms of pilot experience combination and operation of the aircraft. Biz Jet clients are buying a perception of experience and safety and if this situation proves to be correctly represented here I suspect it will have much wider implications for the business jet community as a whole.

[Kirks gusset]

Interesting it was the CVR not the FDR that showed evidence of an attempted barrel roll. As someone suggested perhaps they had a flame out during the roll, more likely, looking at the crew experience, that they just spun it in.. sad but incredible on all counts

[scorp11157]

Have Compassion

Now I have no Idea what happened over the mountains that night and I wouldn't even begin to speculate and I am sure that preliminary report that has been issued is far from final . But I can tell you this . the F/O on this plane crash was my friend and from my point of view as to his character , he would have never put his or anybody elses life at risk to do an arobatics move for spite .He was indeed one of the most generous and most compassionate people I Know . I ask you to have compassion for indeed 2 lives were lost on this flight . fellow human beings, friends , Family . . But none of us were present and we have no idea what happened up there. I hope to someday know the truth of what happened to my friend

[His dudeness]

But none of us were present and we have no idea what happened up there.

scorp, sorry that you lost a friend.

However, I suspect that the german flight accident investigation branch would not post such an accusation so soon after the accident if there would be no reason. Usually the state of registration is involved in the investiation, so translation issues should not be there.

I hope to someday know the truth of what happened to my friend

We canīt tell wether it was your friend or the other pilot who initiated the procedure at this time, but if CVR and FDR are readable, we wil, most likely. Iīd guess it will take some time to learn what really happened.

[scorp11157]

I thank you for your reply . I actually dont know in what context they meant for what happened. they list it as information from the flight voice recorder . so I would take it they would have been talking about doing such a maneuver through their com . But to me that sounds like it may be a mistranslation of sorts as it dosn't sound like the mentality of my friend to do such a thing , even if it was the other pilot as I know he would never put himself or other crew members in harms way . He would have never agreed to such a maneuver . I am hoping it was a mistranslation and they meant it came from the data recorder and describing the planes attitude in its last moments. I am not a pilot but I know alot about the physics of aviation . I know there are many things that could have gone wrong up there that could have put the plane in a tumble of sorts . Airframe instability , Major engine problems . I guess I am just hoping it is mechanical and not Pilot stupidity .
I also notice alot of remarks here about inexperience of the pilots . I cant speak for the crew member on the flight as I do not know their identity. I dont know much about how hours are rated and what is typical for or common for private pilots to have . but i know my friend has more hours than what is listed by other members, he has been flying privately for this company for the past 4 years . and as far as the comment about only have 100 hours of jets i think that may be wrong. it may be 100 hours on this particualr jet . as I know the company aquired this jet back in december .

[His dudeness]

the female in the left seat could not hold the wings level on a sunny day, use-less

A tasteless and useless comment. She is dead, no need to throw stones at this stage.

He would have never agreed to such a maneuver .

I donīt know your friend, but from my own experience: we (humans) do sometimes things we regret afterwards. I have done stupid things, way more than Iīm happy to admit. Also in aeroplanes.

I am hoping it was a mistranslation and they meant it came from the data recorder and describing the planes attitude in its last moments.

At this stage its probably too early, but I doubt that an official statement like the one on the bfu webpage is made lightheardetly without several crosschecks. Jurisdical implications...

I am not a pilot but I know alot about the physics of aviation . I know there are many things that could have gone wrong up there that could have put the plane in a tumble of sorts . Airframe instability , Major engine problems .

Yes and no. A major engine failure would have left them with a gliding aeroplane and from 25000ish thousand feet that would mean at least 10-12 minutes (it has been a while that I flew the Bravo) with a battery that lasts more than 20 minutes with all electrical equipment switched on. I do know a guy who had a complete electrical failure and thus loss of instrumentation in a Bravo, but they would have had at least the standby horizon on standby power for 60 minutes and airspeed and altitude indications. Would be obvious on the FDR readout. (and the CVR would have stopped immediately to - if there is sound of the breaking up this theory is void...)
The Bravo is a very, very easy to fly aeroplane as most Cessnas are. My first Jet was the 551 which is the predecessor to the Bravo and I have flown all Models of the 550/551/560 family, its easy to feel good and in control of the Bravo after little experience in it. There should be something around 1500-1600 airplanes of that family out there flying every day. There not known to fall out of the sky often...

I guess I am just hoping it is mechanical and not Pilot stupidity .

Thats human and perfectly understandable.

I also notice alot of remarks here about inexperience of the pilots . I cant speak for the crew member on the flight as I do not know their identity. I dont know much about how hours are rated and what is typical for or common for private pilots to have . but i know my friend has more hours than what is listed by other members, he has been flying privately for this company for the past 4 years . and as far as the comment about only have 100 hours of jets i think that may be wrong. it may be 100 hours on this particualr jet . as I know the company aquired this jet back in december .

We all have been beginners at one stage. The JAR and now EU rules would require 1500hrs to unfreeze the ATP and command an aeroplane in the transport category such as the Bravo. What you have learned in this 1500hrs is most often not accessed. What I want to say is you can become a very competent aviator in 1500hrs or you can stay at the stage of the PPL trainee you once were. Hours donīt mean to much. I have been flying with people with 4 times as many hours as I have and they were the worst imageable pilots and Iīm constantly stunned by my current cocaptain, who has 1/4th of my hours and is sharper than me, way sharper. But then, experience pays out at the situations he never had faced before and I have.

As bad as it is, I think we just have to wait until the final accident report is out, might take a long time.