PIC with CPL on MP aircraft
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PIC with CPL on MP aircraft
I am holder of JAA CPL(A) + ATPL frozen.
Can I be PIC on Multipilot aircraft flying for owner (no AOC needed)?
I browsed through JAR FCL1 and I found that I need an ATPL only when I am engaged in commercial air transportation.
Am I right?
Can I be PIC on Multipilot aircraft flying for owner (no AOC needed)?
I browsed through JAR FCL1 and I found that I need an ATPL only when I am engaged in commercial air transportation.
Am I right?
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Can anyone remind me of the CPL limit for commanding AOC/public transport aircraft? I can't remember if it's an aircraft weight or number of seats limit. A reference would be useful.
Thanks.
Thanks.
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I've never heard the term "SP Endorsement" used in the UK. I know that some countries issue type ratings restricted to "Co-Pilot". Is the SP Endorsement an unrestricted type rating? Still not clear on why a "commuter" aircraft >12,500lb MTOM is different, maybe I'm missing something.
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I think it depends on the country the aircraft is registered, most JAA members require 2 pilots for PAX transport under AOC, even if operating a SP certified aircraft, some small Cessna jets are certified as single pilot, but in fact are always operated as Multicrew, at least, this side of the pond.
The same goes for a Metro or even a Caravan, for PAX public transport you will be required to operate it as Multicrew by most of the JAA members.
I know for a fact you can be Captain in any of those SP certified aircraft with a CPL but operating it Multicrew, some countries will require you to have a minimum amount of hours and the national CAA may impose you more restrictions as line training IE you wont be able to start operating as a Captain with a copilot straight away, instead, you'll have to fly with a TRI on the RHS for the amount of sectors or hours they judge necessary, and that will mean more line training than a guy with ATPL licence would get required, he is suposed to have more experience and flown bigger aircrafts.
I am not sure but I think to remember the whole issue has something to do with the aircraft being certified as JAR/FAR 23 vs JAR/FAR25.
I could be wrong on this but I think to remember something about the rules saying that a JAR25 certified aircraft cannot be certified as SP.
I have read in the past on this same forum about the FAA giving permision to fly some cessna jet single pilot for PAX public transport, but it said it is subject to specific training and to operate a particular aircraft rather than a type, and they take in account obviously the experience and abbilities of the guy applying for it.
Never heard of anything similar here in Europe.
LEVC
The same goes for a Metro or even a Caravan, for PAX public transport you will be required to operate it as Multicrew by most of the JAA members.
I know for a fact you can be Captain in any of those SP certified aircraft with a CPL but operating it Multicrew, some countries will require you to have a minimum amount of hours and the national CAA may impose you more restrictions as line training IE you wont be able to start operating as a Captain with a copilot straight away, instead, you'll have to fly with a TRI on the RHS for the amount of sectors or hours they judge necessary, and that will mean more line training than a guy with ATPL licence would get required, he is suposed to have more experience and flown bigger aircrafts.
I am not sure but I think to remember the whole issue has something to do with the aircraft being certified as JAR/FAR 23 vs JAR/FAR25.
I could be wrong on this but I think to remember something about the rules saying that a JAR25 certified aircraft cannot be certified as SP.
I have read in the past on this same forum about the FAA giving permision to fly some cessna jet single pilot for PAX public transport, but it said it is subject to specific training and to operate a particular aircraft rather than a type, and they take in account obviously the experience and abbilities of the guy applying for it.
Never heard of anything similar here in Europe.
LEVC
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I think the EU-Ops rules are as follows:
You need 700hrs, of which 400 are as PIC, in order to operate as Captain on CAT flights under IFR.
However, if you only want to fly VFR then you don't need all these hours, but you do need an IR if you want to go more than 50nm from your departure airfield.
So a CPL IR pilot with limited hours can operate as Captain on a CAT flight under VFR. If you need to go IFR, then the hours requirements become relevant.
Hope this helps.
You need 700hrs, of which 400 are as PIC, in order to operate as Captain on CAT flights under IFR.
However, if you only want to fly VFR then you don't need all these hours, but you do need an IR if you want to go more than 50nm from your departure airfield.
So a CPL IR pilot with limited hours can operate as Captain on a CAT flight under VFR. If you need to go IFR, then the hours requirements become relevant.
Hope this helps.
Last edited by whydowebother; 30th Jan 2010 at 21:06.
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"You need 700hrs, of which 400 are as PIC, in order to operate as Captain on CAT flights under IFR."
It is true,although those 400 PIC hours can be substituted for a SIC hours(1 PIC /hour=2 SIC).
And again this applies only to commercial operators.
It is true,although those 400 PIC hours can be substituted for a SIC hours(1 PIC /hour=2 SIC).
And again this applies only to commercial operators.
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I am prepared to be corrected on this one but:
I think is incorrect. Twin caravans, Beech 200's, Cheyennes etc etc can be operated commercially single pilot in most JAA states. Metro and B1900 can't though. Maybe it is a weight thing. Not sure where light jets fit here.
even a Caravan, for PAX public transport you will be required to operate it as Multicrew by most of the JAA members.
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Some Eu-OPS references that may help:
OPS 1.960
Commanders holding a Commercial Pilot Licence
(a) An operator shall ensure that:
1. A Commercial Pilot Licence (CPL) holder does not operate as a commander of an aeroplane certificated in the Aeroplane Flight Manual for single pilot operations unless:
(i) when conducting passenger carrying operations under Visual Flight Rules (VFR) outside a radius of 50 nm from an aerodrome of departure, the pilot has a minimum of 500 hours total flight time on aeroplanes or holds a valid Instrument Rating; or
(ii) when operating on a multi-engine type under Instrument Flight Rules (IFR), the pilot has a minimum of 700 hours total flight time on aeroplanes which includes 400 hours as pilot-in-command (in accordance with the requirements governing Flight Crew Licenses) of which 100 hours have been under IFR including 40 hours multi-engine operation. The 400 hours as pilot-in-command may be substituted by hours operating as co-pilot on the basis of two hours co-pilot is equivalent to one hour as pilot-in-command provided those hours were gained within an established multi-pilot crew system prescribed in the Operations Manual;
2. in addition to subparagraph (a)1(ii) above, when operating under IFR as a single pilot, the requirements prescribed in Appendix 2 to OPS 1.940 are satisfied; and
3. in multi-pilot crew operations, in addition to subparagraph (a)1 above, and prior to the pilot operating as commander, the command course prescribed in OPS 1.955(a)2 is completed.
OPS 1.655
Additional equipment for single pilot operation under IFR or at night
An operator shall not conduct single pilot IFR operations unless the aeroplane is equipped with an autopilot with at least altitude hold and heading mode.
OPS 1.940
Composition of flight crew
(b) Minimum flight crew for operations under IFR or at night. For operations under IFR or at night, an operator shall ensure that:
1. for all turbo-propeller aeroplanes with a maximum approved passenger seating configuration of more than nine and for all turbo-jet aeroplanes, the minimum flight crew is two pilots; or
2. aeroplanes other than those covered by subparagraph (b)1 above are operated by a single pilot provided that the requirements of Appendix 2 to OPS 1.940 are satisfied. If the requirements of Appendix 2 are not satisfied, the minimum flight crew is two pilots.
That is for Commercial Air Transport (CAT) flights, Public Transport Flights under the ANO are slightly different in that if the aircraft has either
a) one or more turbine jets or
b) one or more turbine propeller engines and is provided with a means of
pressurising the personnel compartments
then the minimum crew is 2
OPS 1.960
Commanders holding a Commercial Pilot Licence
(a) An operator shall ensure that:
1. A Commercial Pilot Licence (CPL) holder does not operate as a commander of an aeroplane certificated in the Aeroplane Flight Manual for single pilot operations unless:
(i) when conducting passenger carrying operations under Visual Flight Rules (VFR) outside a radius of 50 nm from an aerodrome of departure, the pilot has a minimum of 500 hours total flight time on aeroplanes or holds a valid Instrument Rating; or
(ii) when operating on a multi-engine type under Instrument Flight Rules (IFR), the pilot has a minimum of 700 hours total flight time on aeroplanes which includes 400 hours as pilot-in-command (in accordance with the requirements governing Flight Crew Licenses) of which 100 hours have been under IFR including 40 hours multi-engine operation. The 400 hours as pilot-in-command may be substituted by hours operating as co-pilot on the basis of two hours co-pilot is equivalent to one hour as pilot-in-command provided those hours were gained within an established multi-pilot crew system prescribed in the Operations Manual;
2. in addition to subparagraph (a)1(ii) above, when operating under IFR as a single pilot, the requirements prescribed in Appendix 2 to OPS 1.940 are satisfied; and
3. in multi-pilot crew operations, in addition to subparagraph (a)1 above, and prior to the pilot operating as commander, the command course prescribed in OPS 1.955(a)2 is completed.
OPS 1.655
Additional equipment for single pilot operation under IFR or at night
An operator shall not conduct single pilot IFR operations unless the aeroplane is equipped with an autopilot with at least altitude hold and heading mode.
OPS 1.940
Composition of flight crew
(b) Minimum flight crew for operations under IFR or at night. For operations under IFR or at night, an operator shall ensure that:
1. for all turbo-propeller aeroplanes with a maximum approved passenger seating configuration of more than nine and for all turbo-jet aeroplanes, the minimum flight crew is two pilots; or
2. aeroplanes other than those covered by subparagraph (b)1 above are operated by a single pilot provided that the requirements of Appendix 2 to OPS 1.940 are satisfied. If the requirements of Appendix 2 are not satisfied, the minimum flight crew is two pilots.
That is for Commercial Air Transport (CAT) flights, Public Transport Flights under the ANO are slightly different in that if the aircraft has either
a) one or more turbine jets or
b) one or more turbine propeller engines and is provided with a means of
pressurising the personnel compartments
then the minimum crew is 2
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I think you will find that OPS 1.960 relates to aircraft that would normally be certified for 2 crew but have been specifically certified for single crew ops.i.e certain models of Citation.
OPS 1.940 states:
(b) Minimum flight crew for operations under IFR or at night. For operations under IFR or at night, an operator shall ensure
that:
(1) For all turbo-propeller aeroplanes with a maximum approved passenger seating configuration of more than 9 and
for all turbo-jet aeroplanes, the minimum flight crew is 2 pilots; or
(2) Aeroplanes other than those covered by subparagraph (b)(1) above are operated by a single pilot provided that
the requirements of Appendix 2 to OPS 1.940 are satisfied. If the requirements of Appendix 2 are not satisfied,
the minimum flight crew is 2 pilots.
Appendix 2 states:
Single pilot operations under IFR or at night:
[B](a) Aeroplanes referred to in OPS 1.940(b)(2) may be operated by a single pilot under IFR or at night when the following
requirements are satisfied:
(1) The operator shall include in the Operations Manual a pilot’s conversion and recurrent training programme which
includes the additional requirements for a single pilot operation;
(2) In particular, the cockpit procedures must include:
(i) Engine management and emergency handling;
(ii) Use of normal, abnormal and emergency checklist;
(iii) ATC communication;
(iv) Departure and approach procedures;
(v) Autopilot management; and
(vi) Use of simplified in-flight documentation;
(3) The recurrent checks required by OPS 1.965 shall be performed in the single-pilot role on the type or class of
aeroplane in an environment representative of the operation;
(4) The pilot shall have a minimum of 50 hours flight time on the specific type or class of aeroplane under IFR of
which 10 hours is as commander; and
(5) The minimum required recent experience for a pilot engaged in a single-pilot operation under IFR or at night shall
be 5 IFR flights, including 3 instrument approaches, carried out during the preceding 90 days on the type or class
of aeroplane in the single-pilot role. This requirement may be replaced by an IFR instrument approach check on
the type or class of aeroplane.
In short, if you fly a light piston twin, for example, the minimum requirement to operate single crew Public Transport is a ME CPL/IR with 50 hours on any light piston twin of which 10 hours is P1. If this were not the case, why would the JAA issue a single crew multi engine instrument COMMERCIAL licence at 200 hours if you can't exercise the privileges until 700 hours?
The fact that many operators will take the requirements of OPS 1.960 as their minimum employment criteria for single crew work is another matter, however.
OPS 1.940 states:
(b) Minimum flight crew for operations under IFR or at night. For operations under IFR or at night, an operator shall ensure
that:
(1) For all turbo-propeller aeroplanes with a maximum approved passenger seating configuration of more than 9 and
for all turbo-jet aeroplanes, the minimum flight crew is 2 pilots; or
(2) Aeroplanes other than those covered by subparagraph (b)(1) above are operated by a single pilot provided that
the requirements of Appendix 2 to OPS 1.940 are satisfied. If the requirements of Appendix 2 are not satisfied,
the minimum flight crew is 2 pilots.
Appendix 2 states:
Single pilot operations under IFR or at night:
[B](a) Aeroplanes referred to in OPS 1.940(b)(2) may be operated by a single pilot under IFR or at night when the following
requirements are satisfied:
(1) The operator shall include in the Operations Manual a pilot’s conversion and recurrent training programme which
includes the additional requirements for a single pilot operation;
(2) In particular, the cockpit procedures must include:
(i) Engine management and emergency handling;
(ii) Use of normal, abnormal and emergency checklist;
(iii) ATC communication;
(iv) Departure and approach procedures;
(v) Autopilot management; and
(vi) Use of simplified in-flight documentation;
(3) The recurrent checks required by OPS 1.965 shall be performed in the single-pilot role on the type or class of
aeroplane in an environment representative of the operation;
(4) The pilot shall have a minimum of 50 hours flight time on the specific type or class of aeroplane under IFR of
which 10 hours is as commander; and
(5) The minimum required recent experience for a pilot engaged in a single-pilot operation under IFR or at night shall
be 5 IFR flights, including 3 instrument approaches, carried out during the preceding 90 days on the type or class
of aeroplane in the single-pilot role. This requirement may be replaced by an IFR instrument approach check on
the type or class of aeroplane.
In short, if you fly a light piston twin, for example, the minimum requirement to operate single crew Public Transport is a ME CPL/IR with 50 hours on any light piston twin of which 10 hours is P1. If this were not the case, why would the JAA issue a single crew multi engine instrument COMMERCIAL licence at 200 hours if you can't exercise the privileges until 700 hours?
The fact that many operators will take the requirements of OPS 1.960 as their minimum employment criteria for single crew work is another matter, however.
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(4) The pilot shall have a minimum of 50 hours flight time on the specific type or class of aeroplane under IFR of which 10 hours is as commander; and
I think you will find that OPS 1.960 relates to Commanders holding a Commercial Pilot Licence (as the title suggests) regardless of certification otherwise the proviso would be given in the title or the text.
why would the JAA issue a single crew multi engine instrument COMMERCIAL licence at 200 hours if you can't exercise the privileges until 700 hours?
Last edited by Don Coyote; 3rd Mar 2010 at 16:17.
The OP referred to flying a MPA under JAA requirements and in a private capacity and so all references to EU-OPS and non-JAA regulatons are entirely irrelevant. In these specific circumstances there is nothing to stop a CPL (or even a PPL) holder flying as PIC of a MPA provided that they hold the relevant type rating.
