Questions for the UK
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Questions for the UK
Hi there,
I am flying as a F/O on a corporate jet, sometimes our trips take us to the UK. I would like to ask you some questions:
* on many airports (eg Luton) the controller doesn't say "cleared ILS rwy XX", just "descend with the glide". Is this some special procedure? Sometimes we are only cleared for the localizer and have to ask for the glide...
* ATIS says "report aircraft type on first contact" - first contact with which station?
* after T/O in many smaller airports we are asked "what services do you request"? - what are our choices? what else than full ATC service?
* Northolt offered to chose between PAR and SRE approach - what the hell is the difference?
Sorry guys, I know I would find some answers in the AIP but we are not familiar with these things on the continent.
... and why are there 2 separate faucets for hot and cold water in the bathrooms? ;-)
thank you
gerxard
I am flying as a F/O on a corporate jet, sometimes our trips take us to the UK. I would like to ask you some questions:
* on many airports (eg Luton) the controller doesn't say "cleared ILS rwy XX", just "descend with the glide". Is this some special procedure? Sometimes we are only cleared for the localizer and have to ask for the glide...
* ATIS says "report aircraft type on first contact" - first contact with which station?
* after T/O in many smaller airports we are asked "what services do you request"? - what are our choices? what else than full ATC service?
* Northolt offered to chose between PAR and SRE approach - what the hell is the difference?
Sorry guys, I know I would find some answers in the AIP but we are not familiar with these things on the continent.
... and why are there 2 separate faucets for hot and cold water in the bathrooms? ;-)
thank you
gerxard
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vive la difference
Regarding smaller airfields - these are in uncontrolled airspace and there are a new set of different levels of radar service available. Generally we ask for "the best you have" which is a bit lazy but ATC seem to be understanding.
For a detailed explanation, go here: http://www.takeflightaviation.co.uk/...edairspace.pdf
I have my own answers for your other questions but I suspect others will be able to give more accurate / definitive answers so I will leave that to them.
Regarding separate taps - to actually get hot water in the UK is a bonus, so don't complain if it comes out of a separate tap
For a detailed explanation, go here: http://www.takeflightaviation.co.uk/...edairspace.pdf
I have my own answers for your other questions but I suspect others will be able to give more accurate / definitive answers so I will leave that to them.
Regarding separate taps - to actually get hot water in the UK is a bonus, so don't complain if it comes out of a separate tap
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Gerxard,
what Hollingworthp gave you was correct last year (untill March 2009). However, there have been some changes (no more RAS, FIS and RIS) it's all called Basic, Traffic and Advisory Services. Don't know why they changed them. But you should find out everything on the UK CAA CAP 413 (radiotelephony).
Good luck!
Garba
what Hollingworthp gave you was correct last year (untill March 2009). However, there have been some changes (no more RAS, FIS and RIS) it's all called Basic, Traffic and Advisory Services. Don't know why they changed them. But you should find out everything on the UK CAA CAP 413 (radiotelephony).
Good luck!
Garba
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It's Basic Service, Traffic Service and Deconfliction Service.....and there's also Procedural Service. The best one for you in these circumstances is Deconfliction Service, if the Air Traffic Services Unit has radar and is capable of providing it.
PAR (military SRA) is a better service (more accurate guidance) than SRA.
PAR (military SRA) is a better service (more accurate guidance) than SRA.
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I can understand how you might be confused by our differing levels of ATC service, but I find not knowing the difference between a PAR and an SRE (SRA) is baffling!
PAR: Precision Approach Radar. The controllers can see your azimuth and elevation on radar and will give correcting instructions to keep you on the 'glideslope' and 'localiser'.
Example: 'Right of the centerline, turn left 2 degrees heading 268 degrees. Slightly above the glideslope, correcting nicely'.
SRE: Surviellance Radar Equipment. The controller can see your position in azimuth, but not your elevation. They will give you correcting turns as above, and will offer information on what you height should be as you continue the approach.
Example: 'Left of the centreline, turn right 3 degrees heading 023 degrees. Height (or altitude) passing 1250 feet'. (This is the height/altitude you should be passing, not what you are actually at - remember, they can't see your elevation).
Given the option, take the PAR every time (unless you want the practice). As it's name suggests, the PAR is a precision approach and will often take you down to 200' AGL. The SRE is a Non Precision Approach and will be a higher minimum.
Regarding the ATC services available, PM me your email address and I will send you a power point presentation which describes the different services. It is not a formal document, but I have found it accurate.
PAR: Precision Approach Radar. The controllers can see your azimuth and elevation on radar and will give correcting instructions to keep you on the 'glideslope' and 'localiser'.
Example: 'Right of the centerline, turn left 2 degrees heading 268 degrees. Slightly above the glideslope, correcting nicely'.
SRE: Surviellance Radar Equipment. The controller can see your position in azimuth, but not your elevation. They will give you correcting turns as above, and will offer information on what you height should be as you continue the approach.
Example: 'Left of the centreline, turn right 3 degrees heading 023 degrees. Height (or altitude) passing 1250 feet'. (This is the height/altitude you should be passing, not what you are actually at - remember, they can't see your elevation).
Given the option, take the PAR every time (unless you want the practice). As it's name suggests, the PAR is a precision approach and will often take you down to 200' AGL. The SRE is a Non Precision Approach and will be a higher minimum.
Regarding the ATC services available, PM me your email address and I will send you a power point presentation which describes the different services. It is not a formal document, but I have found it accurate.
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* on many airports (eg Luton) the controller doesn't say "cleared ILS rwy XX", just "descend with the glide". Is this some special procedure? Sometimes we are only cleared for the localizer and have to ask for the glide...
Taken from CAP 493 Manual of Air Traffic Services Part 1
"Turn left/right heading (three digits), report established on the localiser."
"Report established on the localiser, maintain (level)."
"Closing the localiser from the left/right; report established."
"Descend on the glidepath, QFE (pressure) [millibars]."
"Descend on the glidepath, QNH (pressure) [millibars], [elevation
(number) feet]."
"When established on the localiser, descend on the glidepath, QFE
(pressure) [millibars]/QNH (pressure) [millibars], [elevation (number)
feet]."
* ATIS says "report aircraft type on first contact" - first contact with which station?
* after T/O in many smaller airports we are asked "what services do you request"? - what are our choices? what else than full ATC service?
This is a link to the CAA's latest document about the services available to you outside of controlled airspace in the UK.
This is the most important thing to remember when operating to an airfield outside of controlled airspace in my opinion.
"Within Class F and G airspace, regardless of the service being provided, pilots are ultimately responsible for collision avoidance and terrain clearance, and they should consider service provision to be constrained by the unpredictable nature of this environment.
The Class F and G airspace environment is typified by the following:
• It is not mandatory for a pilot to be in receipt of an ATS; this generates an unknown traffic environment;
• Controller/FISO workload cannot be predicted;
• Pilots may make sudden manoeuvres, even when in receipt of an ATS. "
Others have covered the PAR/SRA's please be prepared for an SRA into Farnborough this summer once preparations for the airshow begin as there will be no ILS for nearly a month.
I hope this is of some use
SH
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You guys seem to have this all covered nicely.
The final question remains in my mind....
Why the hell does the UK not standardise it's procedures and RT with the rest of the world?
I'm a UK pilot and fly globally. The procedures are as non-standard, in my humble opinion, as those found in places like Russia.
Maybe not the right place for the question, but still worth asking.
On a personal point, this is not a "dig" at anyone that provides the prescribed services. ATC and all the good people involved to a great job. This is however a "dig" at the policy makers.
Please please please standardise with at least the rest of Europe!
The final question remains in my mind....
Why the hell does the UK not standardise it's procedures and RT with the rest of the world?
I'm a UK pilot and fly globally. The procedures are as non-standard, in my humble opinion, as those found in places like Russia.
Maybe not the right place for the question, but still worth asking.
On a personal point, this is not a "dig" at anyone that provides the prescribed services. ATC and all the good people involved to a great job. This is however a "dig" at the policy makers.
Please please please standardise with at least the rest of Europe!
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mmm, because the ATC in Mainland Europe is so good? I have not felt that I wish Spanish / French or Italian ATC on UK!
How many times have you been left high and dry by certain controllers in certain 'southern states' ?
German, Dutch, Scandinavian maybe...
The system in UK is not perfect, but it does work pretty well.
How many times have you been left high and dry by certain controllers in certain 'southern states' ?
German, Dutch, Scandinavian maybe...
The system in UK is not perfect, but it does work pretty well.
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Yeah, but what about the important question. Why the hell do we have separate taps? I just bought a brand new house and have to replace 12 taps to convert them to mixers.. what is the point?
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The Taps issue is probably more important.
I get no end of complaints about that from my Non-UK counterparts. They do hark on about it. Maybe that's more of a CRM issue than ATC procedures.
Lets lobby the government to change the taps to all mixer so that I don't have to hear one more complaint
I get no end of complaints about that from my Non-UK counterparts. They do hark on about it. Maybe that's more of a CRM issue than ATC procedures.
Lets lobby the government to change the taps to all mixer so that I don't have to hear one more complaint
The ILS thing is a pain. 
The UK position is that the ILS approach charts are designed with respect to terrain, but not airspace. This results in, say, a level ("platform") segment of, say, 2000 feet, running into the ILS glideslope.
The problem is that there may be a VFR corridor in that piece of airspace, crossing at 90º underneath the ILS. The UK are concerned that, if they say "Descend to 3000', cleared ILS" that the pilot will descend to 3000', intercept the localiser, look at the chart (with a 2000' platform) and descend to 2000' to fly level before then intercepting the glide slope! This interpretation of what an insane pilot might do, would mean that they might descend into un-notified crossing VFR traffic at 2000'
That is why it takes twenty radio calls to intercept an ILS in the UK.
The UK position is that the ILS approach charts are designed with respect to terrain, but not airspace. This results in, say, a level ("platform") segment of, say, 2000 feet, running into the ILS glideslope.The problem is that there may be a VFR corridor in that piece of airspace, crossing at 90º underneath the ILS. The UK are concerned that, if they say "Descend to 3000', cleared ILS" that the pilot will descend to 3000', intercept the localiser, look at the chart (with a 2000' platform) and descend to 2000' to fly level before then intercepting the glide slope! This interpretation of what an insane pilot might do, would mean that they might descend into un-notified crossing VFR traffic at 2000'
That is why it takes twenty radio calls to intercept an ILS in the UK.
ECON cruise, LR cruise...
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Checkboard,
No longer - clearance can now be given as follows: "When established localiser - descend on the glidepath". This one - incidentally - came around the same time that the new ATS service levels were introduced.
For those not used o flying in UK airspace, it could be worth looking at Home - NATS and getting the low-down on what the service levels actually give you.
No longer - clearance can now be given as follows: "When established localiser - descend on the glidepath". This one - incidentally - came around the same time that the new ATS service levels were introduced.
For those not used o flying in UK airspace, it could be worth looking at Home - NATS and getting the low-down on what the service levels actually give you.
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Separate hot & cold taps: Historically the UK didn't use mains pressure hot water systems. Instead they used boilers that fed a header tank causing the hot water to be at lower pressure than the cold supply. If the two systems were joined, such as happens in the plumbing behind a single outlet, when some mix of hot & cold is selected then the lower pressure cold can feed into the hot pipes.
Even a single outlet in the UK isn't really: Inside the faucet are segregated hot & cold supplies that independently supply the exit point- which is where the two streams finally meet.
Of course a place might have been modernised and gained pressurised hot water & mixing faucets.
Even a single outlet in the UK isn't really: Inside the faucet are segregated hot & cold supplies that independently supply the exit point- which is where the two streams finally meet.
Of course a place might have been modernised and gained pressurised hot water & mixing faucets.
Last edited by Tinstaafl; 28th Jan 2010 at 15:06.
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Firstly, if we're talking about the UK, let's get rid of the Americanisms: they are TAPS, not FAUCETS
You are requested to report the ATIS information to the Approach function at the airfield. Often this is indicated on the JEPPS/AERADS as Approach or Approach Radar or Director.
At those airfield where there is a local ZONE control (e.g. Jersey Zone) you usually wait until the next function (Approach) before passing the information but sometimes they have the positions combined, so you can't win!!
Do not pass 'Boeing 767 with information Lima' on first contact with London Control even if you have picked up the ATIS whilst still over France!!
You are requested to report the ATIS information to the Approach function at the airfield. Often this is indicated on the JEPPS/AERADS as Approach or Approach Radar or Director.
At those airfield where there is a local ZONE control (e.g. Jersey Zone) you usually wait until the next function (Approach) before passing the information but sometimes they have the positions combined, so you can't win!!
Do not pass 'Boeing 767 with information Lima' on first contact with London Control even if you have picked up the ATIS whilst still over France!!
I was trying to distinguish between the valve control bit with the knob or lever - a 'tap' to me - and the spout bit where the water comes out. Admittedly I tend to use the terms somewhat interchangeably.
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Two taps highlight our quaint British tendency to embrace outmoded traditional practices instead of embracing modern effective ones to overcome simple problems.
Let's face it, two taps are wasteful, unhygienic and a pain in the to use. But this matters not because it is traditional! It's something that the Victorians used to do (and they were really great!) and nevermind that everybody else realised more than a 100 years ago (even the French) that the arrangement was crap and a more workable solution was required to washing your hands after having a .
Next time one of your British friends tries to shake your hand, politely ask him or her if they washed theirs after last taking a dump or decided against the third degree burns required to do so...
Let's face it, two taps are wasteful, unhygienic and a pain in the
to use. But this matters not because it is traditional! It's something that the Victorians used to do (and they were really great!) and nevermind that everybody else realised more than a 100 years ago (even the French) that the arrangement was crap and a more workable solution was required to washing your hands after having a . Next time one of your British friends tries to shake your hand, politely ask him or her if they washed theirs after last taking a dump or decided against the third degree burns required to do so...
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Problem solved, I use an alcohol free, moisturizing hand sanitizer. It kills 99.8% of germs and leaves my hands soft and smooth. No more trips to hospital with burnt hands for me 