North Weald
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The ideal is Northolt. The MOD should relinquish their hold on the airport and allow it to be fully developed as a business aircraft centre. Fast connections into central London.
Last year I flew into Northolt and noticed that Netjets were operating in and out with some excellent facilities so I think the MOD have relaxed their grip in exchange for money
Last year I flew into Northolt and noticed that Netjets were operating in and out with some excellent facilities so I think the MOD have relaxed their grip in exchange for money
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[QUOTE]You need to get the place a CAA Aerodrome Licence (by no means easy)
This used to be an MOD base so should be a formality but CAA will want wads of dosh !/QUOTE]
Unfortunately the MOD model of an aerodrome frequently does not meet with the CAA/ICAO ideal. Farnborough was a real classic. Look how much usable runway is left after 'obstacles' in the approach and climb out were treated to civillian tolerances. This despite it being used to its full length by the MOD throughout history.
This used to be an MOD base so should be a formality but CAA will want wads of dosh !/QUOTE]
Unfortunately the MOD model of an aerodrome frequently does not meet with the CAA/ICAO ideal. Farnborough was a real classic. Look how much usable runway is left after 'obstacles' in the approach and climb out were treated to civillian tolerances. This despite it being used to its full length by the MOD throughout history.
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What other benifts could North Weald be used for?
Aircraft Base?
Maintenance?
Servace Center?
Flight Training?
Fron North Weald you can be in the center of London in under 30 mins on the M11, or jump on the underground central line at epping (1 mile away) and go anywhere. - 20 mins to liverpool street ect- 15 mins to Stratford.
The Main thing is the Run way is already in place (near 2000 menters). large moden hangers are present, Control tower is there. Lots of parking space. security fenceing in place. an owner who is looking to sell or rent it out. a fire cover like nothing i ve seen for an airport with not alot happening. Appliances & Crew, North Weald Fire Rescue
and most of all alot of people that want to see the airport used as an airport and not for housing.
Maybe Netjets/Oceansky / Jet Aviation or someone could develope it.
Aircraft Base?
Maintenance?
Servace Center?
Flight Training?
Fron North Weald you can be in the center of London in under 30 mins on the M11, or jump on the underground central line at epping (1 mile away) and go anywhere. - 20 mins to liverpool street ect- 15 mins to Stratford.
The Main thing is the Run way is already in place (near 2000 menters). large moden hangers are present, Control tower is there. Lots of parking space. security fenceing in place. an owner who is looking to sell or rent it out. a fire cover like nothing i ve seen for an airport with not alot happening. Appliances & Crew, North Weald Fire Rescue
and most of all alot of people that want to see the airport used as an airport and not for housing.
Maybe Netjets/Oceansky / Jet Aviation or someone could develope it.
North Weald could only ever be a VFR only airport due to constraints of airspace re iaps. An iap from the north could not have a 'platform' altitude high enough for IFR terrain clearance. An iap from the south might be feasible were it not for the fact that the MAP would need to allow aircraft to climb to safety altitude which is not possible with Stansted (note no 'a' in Stansted) being so adjacent.
Basically it's too close to Stansted's iaps/SIDs to be anything other than a VFR airport.
The length of Farnborough's runway is immaterial; suffice to say it's 'artificially' short and terrain clearance has little to do with it.
Northolt has its NIMBYs even though it's MOD, and there's no room to extend the runway, which already has a 3.5 deg glidepath due to obstructions.
Basically it's too close to Stansted's iaps/SIDs to be anything other than a VFR airport.
The length of Farnborough's runway is immaterial; suffice to say it's 'artificially' short and terrain clearance has little to do with it.
Northolt has its NIMBYs even though it's MOD, and there's no room to extend the runway, which already has a 3.5 deg glidepath due to obstructions.
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North Weald could only ever be a VFR only airport due to constraints of airspace re iaps.
Only if you apply our blinkered UK approach to this challenge
Have a look at Orlando International and Orlando executive as an example of airports in close proximity with different requirements.
There is nothing to prevent some form of approach to be developed for North Weald (Precision GPS perhaps) and for the airspace to be reviewed and changed if necessary to ensure safety with Stansted. A bit too radical for some no doubt but a reasonable solution could be found if there was a will to do so.
I am always amazed at how "impossible" things seem to be in this part of the world. If we sent men to the moon then we can certainly create some kind of workable instrument approach for NW.
As for the great Housing V Aviation battle I don't wish to reopen that recent wound but I wonder if an airpark community for pilots to build houses on their own plots and create an aviation community would be a good compromise and would ensure the continued use of NW for GA.
Only if you apply our blinkered UK approach to this challenge
Have a look at Orlando International and Orlando executive as an example of airports in close proximity with different requirements.
There is nothing to prevent some form of approach to be developed for North Weald (Precision GPS perhaps) and for the airspace to be reviewed and changed if necessary to ensure safety with Stansted. A bit too radical for some no doubt but a reasonable solution could be found if there was a will to do so.
I am always amazed at how "impossible" things seem to be in this part of the world. If we sent men to the moon then we can certainly create some kind of workable instrument approach for NW.
As for the great Housing V Aviation battle I don't wish to reopen that recent wound but I wonder if an airpark community for pilots to build houses on their own plots and create an aviation community would be a good compromise and would ensure the continued use of NW for GA.
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[QUOTE]The length of Farnborough's runway is immaterial; suffice to say it's 'artificially' short and terrain clearance has little to do with it./QUOTE]
It does not suffice to say 'it's artificially short'. Now why would anyone make a runway 'artificially' short? No one volunteers to displace landing thresholds by that amount without good reason. A slab 2440 metres long with an LDA of 1800 metres! Must be environmental then.
If North Weald wanted to introduce an IAP then under the terms on their licence granted by the CAA NERL must consider all requests. The entire licence document is too large to quote here but this snippet is interesting:-
8. Subject to paragraph 7, the Licensee shall not unduly discriminate against or give preferential treatment to any person or class of persons in respect of the terms on which services are provided, to the extent that such terms have or are intended to have or are likely to have the effect of preventing, restricting or distorting competition in any market.
The CAA DAP would take a dim view of NERL (NATS and its other guises) dictating that a certain aerodrome may be VFR only because it would 'interfere' with their business. Not their decision to make.
It does not suffice to say 'it's artificially short'. Now why would anyone make a runway 'artificially' short? No one volunteers to displace landing thresholds by that amount without good reason. A slab 2440 metres long with an LDA of 1800 metres! Must be environmental then.
If North Weald wanted to introduce an IAP then under the terms on their licence granted by the CAA NERL must consider all requests. The entire licence document is too large to quote here but this snippet is interesting:-
8. Subject to paragraph 7, the Licensee shall not unduly discriminate against or give preferential treatment to any person or class of persons in respect of the terms on which services are provided, to the extent that such terms have or are intended to have or are likely to have the effect of preventing, restricting or distorting competition in any market.
The CAA DAP would take a dim view of NERL (NATS and its other guises) dictating that a certain aerodrome may be VFR only because it would 'interfere' with their business. Not their decision to make.
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[QUOTE]Stansted is nothing to do with NERL./QUOTE]
Pedant mode been left switched on?
Lets use the coverall of NATS to encompass both En-route and Airport Services. BAA contract NATS for the airport services at Stansted. But both en-route and airport services would be involved in discussion if North Weald ever wanted an IAP.
Pedant mode been left switched on?
Lets use the coverall of NATS to encompass both En-route and Airport Services. BAA contract NATS for the airport services at Stansted. But both en-route and airport services would be involved in discussion if North Weald ever wanted an IAP.
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How can anyone really say that NW can't be developed due to airspace issues? Go to the Los Angeles TMA and see how many smaller airfields occupy the same space, look at Le Bourget and De Gaulle, Nice and Cannes etc. we've got SUCH a negative attitude here in the UK...........
I'm not saying NW can't be used as a business airport, just that the interaction with an ever more busy Stansted would make it extremely unlikely there could be an iap. I've sat on the Essex radar position myself and seen the traffic. Airfields like Blackbushe and Fairoaks are VFR only and take business traffic with few constraints, so there's no reason NW couldn't operate in the same way.
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never say never
Whilst it is all great fun debating and playing fantasy airports, some of the posts here are really in in cloud cuckoo land.
Don't underestimate UK red tape - there is simply not a hope in hell of 'developing' North Weald from a political perspective, planning perspective, national aviation policy perspective, or legally, with NATS and CAA and EASA compliance/approval/moral support or otherwise.
This is not the USA (or France for that matter) - we are the worse possible country in the western hemisphere to do anything logical so far as aviation infrastructure is concerned. Any other country in Europe, you might have a small chance - but not here - there are barriers that would make the most maverick of dreamers cry.
Sorry, but its a complete waste of hot air.
It will forever remain unlicensed and as it is today - or closed altogether - or used by Top Gear when Dunsfold is developed!
Don't underestimate UK red tape - there is simply not a hope in hell of 'developing' North Weald from a political perspective, planning perspective, national aviation policy perspective, or legally, with NATS and CAA and EASA compliance/approval/moral support or otherwise.
This is not the USA (or France for that matter) - we are the worse possible country in the western hemisphere to do anything logical so far as aviation infrastructure is concerned. Any other country in Europe, you might have a small chance - but not here - there are barriers that would make the most maverick of dreamers cry.
Sorry, but its a complete waste of hot air.
It will forever remain unlicensed and as it is today - or closed altogether - or used by Top Gear when Dunsfold is developed!
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Apart from the 10s of millions that would need pumping into North weald to bring it up to scratch. The runway I understand would need a complete overhaul. It may be long, but its not very strong.
Great Bacon Sarnies though!
However, Southend is on the verge of gaining permission for a 300m extension (Council voted 14-3 in favour. Awaiting Article 14 outcome). The railway station is mid construction, and the new control tower construction begins shortly.
Great Bacon Sarnies though!
However, Southend is on the verge of gaining permission for a 300m extension (Council voted 14-3 in favour. Awaiting Article 14 outcome). The railway station is mid construction, and the new control tower construction begins shortly.
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I agree its a shame that North Weald cannot be developed into more than it currently is. There is no comparison to Blackbushe or Fairoaks which are far smaller and don't have anywhere near as good infrastucture.
Although the runway has been stated as "weak" I doubt that much more than a re-surface would suffice for a bizjet/GA airport. There are a hell of a lot of UK airfields still with original MOD concrete topped off with grooved bitumen working just fine!
It would "just" need an ILS installation. I say "just" because of the huge cost of such an undertaking.
Airspace "issues" are just a state of mind. The UK attitude is very negative. Just look at many US cities to find GA airports nestled in between major international hubs and that works!
Although the runway has been stated as "weak" I doubt that much more than a re-surface would suffice for a bizjet/GA airport. There are a hell of a lot of UK airfields still with original MOD concrete topped off with grooved bitumen working just fine!
It would "just" need an ILS installation. I say "just" because of the huge cost of such an undertaking.
Airspace "issues" are just a state of mind. The UK attitude is very negative. Just look at many US cities to find GA airports nestled in between major international hubs and that works!
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However, Southend is on the verge of gaining permission for a 300m extension (Council voted 14-3 in favour. Awaiting Article 14 outcome). The railway station is mid construction, and the new control tower construction begins shortly.
Now they need a fast direct non stop railway connection into Liverpool street.
The stop at every station is a pain while a non stop should take the trip to around 30 minutes.
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Rail Links
I think many are missing the point here. The most important thing is the road links. I have come across very few biz jet passengers that would even consider rail travel from airport to town centre. It is hard to imagine anyone arriving by private jet and then taking a train to Central London. It will not happen. Without doubt Northolt and LCY are the best options for passengers and that will probably never change but with so many restrictions for both of these airports there will never be a perfect solution. In any case rail links from anywhere, however fast are a waste of time.
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The first thing that North Weald would benefit from is a complete change of attitude.
The prevailing attitude appears to be "resignation" or apathy which we all know as a negative
After years of stagnation and drift with minimal investment things have fallen way behind where they should (and could) be.
It is much harder to bring an airport up to modern day standards after years of poor management. Far better to manage the asset well and improve incrementally year on year. Before we can have a TAG we need to manage what is there in a better and smarter way and the only way that is going to happen is with a more positive attitude.
Sort the attitude and the rest will follow (money etc) - I know we live in a country that is hardly world leader as far as aviation but we should remember that we used to be and we have inherited assets that we have a duty to preserve and develop for future generations. "We" are the CAA and "we" are UK aviation so if "we" don't like the way things are done around here "we" are the ones who need to do something about it.
Forget North Weald there is a much larger more pressing problem to address - how to change the prevailing culture and attitude towards GA in the UK before we no longer have any local airports with decent approaches and facilities for "US".
Gets down from soapbox and heads for the shelter !
The prevailing attitude appears to be "resignation" or apathy which we all know as a negative
After years of stagnation and drift with minimal investment things have fallen way behind where they should (and could) be.
It is much harder to bring an airport up to modern day standards after years of poor management. Far better to manage the asset well and improve incrementally year on year. Before we can have a TAG we need to manage what is there in a better and smarter way and the only way that is going to happen is with a more positive attitude.
Sort the attitude and the rest will follow (money etc) - I know we live in a country that is hardly world leader as far as aviation but we should remember that we used to be and we have inherited assets that we have a duty to preserve and develop for future generations. "We" are the CAA and "we" are UK aviation so if "we" don't like the way things are done around here "we" are the ones who need to do something about it.
Forget North Weald there is a much larger more pressing problem to address - how to change the prevailing culture and attitude towards GA in the UK before we no longer have any local airports with decent approaches and facilities for "US".
Gets down from soapbox and heads for the shelter !
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belowradar
Apathy How can we change that, we Brits love the status quo (not the band) and don't have the bollocks to fight our corners
Leave it to those sphincters in BRU to supply the answrs Get the operators involved, get BBGA involved, get Joe public involved, get the warbird owners/operators based there involved. Lobby, lobby, lobby, if ya don't, the latrine builders will be there. How the **** do you think TAG rebuilt FAB ?
Answers on a penny black stamp if you've got one
How can we change that, we Brits love the status quo (not the band) and don't have the bollocks to fight our corners Leave it to those sphincters in BRU to supply the answrs Get the operators involved, get BBGA involved, get Joe public involved, get the warbird owners/operators based there involved. Lobby, lobby, lobby, if ya don't, the latrine builders will be there. How the **** do you think TAG rebuilt FAB ?Answers on a penny black stamp if you've got one
