Do I need an AOC???
Join Date: Mar 2004
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@tac1
Havent heard that yet. Is there something on the net about it? I still wait for the EASA to come forward with their new set of rules that have been open for comment and I just wonder what happens if they don´t come forward on time etc.
Been D-reg, will we be grounded if no SMS is in place 18/Nov/2010 ?
With effect from 18th November 2010 ALL operations that fall into the above category with have to comply with the requirements of the new ICAO Annex 6 Part II
Been D-reg, will we be grounded if no SMS is in place 18/Nov/2010 ?
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If you ar flying a guy around in his plane you do not need an AOC
If you are being paid to fly a guy around in your plane you do
If you are flying other people around in the guys aircraft he does
It is the EASA regs you want not FCL
If you are being paid to fly a guy around in your plane you do
If you are flying other people around in the guys aircraft he does
It is the EASA regs you want not FCL
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IS-BAO & Safety Management Systems
S.F.L.Y, I wish I could sing like him!
I understand safety management and IS-BAO as well as the background to aviation regulation but the intention of the post was a bit of info really.
His Dudeness - the date on ICAO Annex 6 Part II (18 Nov 2010) is that set by ICAO and will have entailed considerable consultation with the signatory states. The question you ask however relates to how EASA and possibly Luftfahrt-Bundesamt (National Aviation Authority of Germany) decides to implement the ICAO rule. As the case with Bermuda shows, they have decided to ratify the requirement with effect from 01 Nov 2009 through the Air Navigation (Overseas Territories) Order.
Sometimes rules become effective early, some on the target date and some have implementation timescales (remember Elementary and Enhanced Mode S) it depends largely on the NAA's of each country.
Best advice is contact LBA (of you NAA if not in Germany) and ask them.
I understand safety management and IS-BAO as well as the background to aviation regulation but the intention of the post was a bit of info really.
His Dudeness - the date on ICAO Annex 6 Part II (18 Nov 2010) is that set by ICAO and will have entailed considerable consultation with the signatory states. The question you ask however relates to how EASA and possibly Luftfahrt-Bundesamt (National Aviation Authority of Germany) decides to implement the ICAO rule. As the case with Bermuda shows, they have decided to ratify the requirement with effect from 01 Nov 2009 through the Air Navigation (Overseas Territories) Order.
Sometimes rules become effective early, some on the target date and some have implementation timescales (remember Elementary and Enhanced Mode S) it depends largely on the NAA's of each country.
Best advice is contact LBA (of you NAA if not in Germany) and ask them.
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This should make it all as clear as MUD-
AIRCRAFT MANAGEMENT
The law and public transport
The starting point is the definition of public transport. Article 157(3)(a) of the Air Navigation Order 2005 provides that a public transport flight is one on which valuable consideration is given or promised for the carriage of passengers in the aircraft on that flight. In applying that definition, one should ask in respect of a particular flight whether there is a passenger on board and if so whether any payment has been made for the purpose of carrying the passenger on that flight. This is a question of substance and not of form. It matters not how the payment is characterised (eg, as an access fee, facilitation fee, utilisation charge).
Contracting in expertise
A person may wish to have the benefit of an aircraft but have insufficient expertise or be unwilling to devote the time and effort to undertake all aspects of the operation himself. He may buy aircraft management services to support the operation.
Payments by an owner for aircraft management services
Where an owner pays for aircraft management services, the question which needs to be determined is how those payments should be characterised. In particular, in what circumstances will those payments amount to payment for the carriage of a passenger on the flight so that the flight would be public transport. Alternatively, in what circumstances might the payments be characterised as not being for the carriage of a passenger on a particular flight in which case the flight may be operated as either a private or an aerial work flight.
Where the owner is the operator
In the view of the CAA, where, notwithstanding services bought in from an aircraft management company, an owner operates his own aircraft, payments to the aircraft management company will not be for the carriage of passengers on a flight.
Identifying the operator
To determine who will be the operator one must look at the operation as a whole in order to determine who is managing it. Where virtually all aspects of an operation are contracted out, and in particular where they are largely contracted to one supplier, at some point the person would cease to be the operator in substance and thus in law. It would be the external supplier who becomes the operator.
The Air Navigation Order 2005
“Operator” is defined at Article 155(3) of the Air Navigation Order 2005 as in essence being the person who has the management of the aircraft at the relevant time. There is no further assistance in the legislation as to what amounts having the management of an aircraft. In practice, it means the person who is in substance (and not in form) managing the operation of the aircraft. CAA interprets it by reference to the case of CAA v Internationale Nederlanden Lease BV and JAR-OPS 1.175 (see below).
CAA v Internationale Nederlanden Lease BV
In the case of CAA v Internationale Nederlanden Lease BV, the Judge stated:
“It seems to me that the management of an aircraft typically includes two crucially important aspects: ensuring that the aircraft is at all times airworthy, and ensuring that it has a competent, qualified and certificated crew.”
Mere ownership of an aircraft is not in itself relevant to these considerations. It is possible to operate and aircraft one does not own and it is possible to own an aircraft which one does not operate.
JAR OPS 1.175
It is useful to consider the provisions in JAR-OPS setting out those matters which must take into account when granting an AOC. JAR OPS 1.175 provides that an applicant for an AOC must have a management organisation capable of exercising operational control and supervision over any flight operated by it and have an accountable manager who has corporate authority for ensuring that all operations and maintenance activities can be carried out to the standard required by the Authority.
Appendix 2 to JAR OPS 1.175 provides that an operator must have a sound and effective management structure in order to ensure the safe conduct of their operations.
IEM OPS 1.175 states that the responsibilities of management related to JAR-OPS Part 1 should include at least the following five main functions:
(a) determination of the operator’s flight safety policy;
(b) allocation of responsibilities and duties and issuing instructions to individuals, sufficient for the implementation of person policy and the maintenance of safety standards;
(c) monitoring of flight safety standards;
(d) recording and analysis of any deviations from person standards and ensuring corrective action;
(e) evaluating the safety record of the person in order to avoid the development of undesirable trends.
Where an owner is not the operator
Where an owner is not the operator whether payments made in connection with the operation are for the carriage of a passenger on a particular flight will depend on all the circumstances. The following factors may be relevant:
Ownership
Whether the person making the payments is the sole or a substantial owner and the registered owner.
Purpose of Payments
Whether the only payments made may properly be considered to be for the purpose of aircraft management services.
Whether payments are in respect of a flight
Whether the payments are part of a long-term aircraft management contract or are in respect of a particular flight or short period.
Use of Aircraft
Whether the aircraft is used solely or mainly by the owner.
Responsibility of owner
Whether the owner has selected the aircraft management company and placed his aircraft within it.
Conclusions
Where payments are made:
• under a long term management contract;
• to an aircraft management services company selected by the owner;
• by a sole owner;
• for the provision of operational services for the owner’s aircraft
• which aircraft is solely or mainly used by the owner for the carriage of himself and persons personally known to the owner;
• without any other payments being made in connection with their carriage:
the CAA is likely to conclude that the payments are not for the carriage of passengers on any particular flight and therefore the flights will not be public transport. ; The CAA would not therefore expect such flights to be conducted under an AOC.
However, as noted above the position will depend on all the circumstances, the legal test is open to interpretation and the CAA cannot certify that any particular arrangement will be lawful. It will be for the owner and the management company to satisfy themselves that their arrangements are safe and lawful both in terms of the requirements of the Air Navigation Order and any applicable insurance policies.
Civil Aviation Authority
December 2002
(Revised to ANO 2005 references)
TMAB
The law and public transport
The starting point is the definition of public transport. Article 157(3)(a) of the Air Navigation Order 2005 provides that a public transport flight is one on which valuable consideration is given or promised for the carriage of passengers in the aircraft on that flight. In applying that definition, one should ask in respect of a particular flight whether there is a passenger on board and if so whether any payment has been made for the purpose of carrying the passenger on that flight. This is a question of substance and not of form. It matters not how the payment is characterised (eg, as an access fee, facilitation fee, utilisation charge).
Contracting in expertise
A person may wish to have the benefit of an aircraft but have insufficient expertise or be unwilling to devote the time and effort to undertake all aspects of the operation himself. He may buy aircraft management services to support the operation.
Payments by an owner for aircraft management services
Where an owner pays for aircraft management services, the question which needs to be determined is how those payments should be characterised. In particular, in what circumstances will those payments amount to payment for the carriage of a passenger on the flight so that the flight would be public transport. Alternatively, in what circumstances might the payments be characterised as not being for the carriage of a passenger on a particular flight in which case the flight may be operated as either a private or an aerial work flight.
Where the owner is the operator
In the view of the CAA, where, notwithstanding services bought in from an aircraft management company, an owner operates his own aircraft, payments to the aircraft management company will not be for the carriage of passengers on a flight.
Identifying the operator
To determine who will be the operator one must look at the operation as a whole in order to determine who is managing it. Where virtually all aspects of an operation are contracted out, and in particular where they are largely contracted to one supplier, at some point the person would cease to be the operator in substance and thus in law. It would be the external supplier who becomes the operator.
The Air Navigation Order 2005
“Operator” is defined at Article 155(3) of the Air Navigation Order 2005 as in essence being the person who has the management of the aircraft at the relevant time. There is no further assistance in the legislation as to what amounts having the management of an aircraft. In practice, it means the person who is in substance (and not in form) managing the operation of the aircraft. CAA interprets it by reference to the case of CAA v Internationale Nederlanden Lease BV and JAR-OPS 1.175 (see below).
CAA v Internationale Nederlanden Lease BV
In the case of CAA v Internationale Nederlanden Lease BV, the Judge stated:
“It seems to me that the management of an aircraft typically includes two crucially important aspects: ensuring that the aircraft is at all times airworthy, and ensuring that it has a competent, qualified and certificated crew.”
Mere ownership of an aircraft is not in itself relevant to these considerations. It is possible to operate and aircraft one does not own and it is possible to own an aircraft which one does not operate.
JAR OPS 1.175
It is useful to consider the provisions in JAR-OPS setting out those matters which must take into account when granting an AOC. JAR OPS 1.175 provides that an applicant for an AOC must have a management organisation capable of exercising operational control and supervision over any flight operated by it and have an accountable manager who has corporate authority for ensuring that all operations and maintenance activities can be carried out to the standard required by the Authority.
Appendix 2 to JAR OPS 1.175 provides that an operator must have a sound and effective management structure in order to ensure the safe conduct of their operations.
IEM OPS 1.175 states that the responsibilities of management related to JAR-OPS Part 1 should include at least the following five main functions:
(a) determination of the operator’s flight safety policy;
(b) allocation of responsibilities and duties and issuing instructions to individuals, sufficient for the implementation of person policy and the maintenance of safety standards;
(c) monitoring of flight safety standards;
(d) recording and analysis of any deviations from person standards and ensuring corrective action;
(e) evaluating the safety record of the person in order to avoid the development of undesirable trends.
Where an owner is not the operator
Where an owner is not the operator whether payments made in connection with the operation are for the carriage of a passenger on a particular flight will depend on all the circumstances. The following factors may be relevant:
Ownership
Whether the person making the payments is the sole or a substantial owner and the registered owner.
Purpose of Payments
Whether the only payments made may properly be considered to be for the purpose of aircraft management services.
Whether payments are in respect of a flight
Whether the payments are part of a long-term aircraft management contract or are in respect of a particular flight or short period.
Use of Aircraft
Whether the aircraft is used solely or mainly by the owner.
Responsibility of owner
Whether the owner has selected the aircraft management company and placed his aircraft within it.
Conclusions
Where payments are made:
• under a long term management contract;
• to an aircraft management services company selected by the owner;
• by a sole owner;
• for the provision of operational services for the owner’s aircraft
• which aircraft is solely or mainly used by the owner for the carriage of himself and persons personally known to the owner;
• without any other payments being made in connection with their carriage:
the CAA is likely to conclude that the payments are not for the carriage of passengers on any particular flight and therefore the flights will not be public transport. ; The CAA would not therefore expect such flights to be conducted under an AOC.
However, as noted above the position will depend on all the circumstances, the legal test is open to interpretation and the CAA cannot certify that any particular arrangement will be lawful. It will be for the owner and the management company to satisfy themselves that their arrangements are safe and lawful both in terms of the requirements of the Air Navigation Order and any applicable insurance policies.
Civil Aviation Authority
December 2002
(Revised to ANO 2005 references)
TMAB
time I got myself another job.
Don't worry, the buggers in the UK won't ever do you... or if they try, they'll fail.
Their record in that department ain't hugely inspiring.
We (AOC holders) here in the UK have been trying to get the "regulator" to stop illegals (I am not suggesting that what you propose is such) for... well, ages.... and still it happens. Toothless, apparently. And it's not just pvt ops doing illegal CAT - I once reported an openly dodgy AOC operation, CAT, into a waaaay too-short UK field - the official response? "Can't do anything without proof". Erm... ain't that what FO(I) and/or SAFA ramp checks are for??
Fill yer boots, mate, and if anyone ever wants to ramp check you, say "sorry, it'll take me out of duty, make an apointment", and walk straight ahead off the field.
They'll soon be too interested in whether you've filled your ETS returns in to bother with owt else, anyway. Bitter, moi?
Their record in that department ain't hugely inspiring.
We (AOC holders) here in the UK have been trying to get the "regulator" to stop illegals (I am not suggesting that what you propose is such) for... well, ages.... and still it happens. Toothless, apparently. And it's not just pvt ops doing illegal CAT - I once reported an openly dodgy AOC operation, CAT, into a waaaay too-short UK field - the official response? "Can't do anything without proof". Erm... ain't that what FO(I) and/or SAFA ramp checks are for??
Fill yer boots, mate, and if anyone ever wants to ramp check you, say "sorry, it'll take me out of duty, make an apointment", and walk straight ahead off the field.
They'll soon be too interested in whether you've filled your ETS returns in to bother with owt else, anyway. Bitter, moi?
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Got to love the grey areas...
If you are flying a guy around in his plane you do not need an AOC
If you are being paid to fly a guy around in your plane you do
If you are flying other people around in the guys aircraft he does
If you are being paid to fly a guy around in your plane you do
If you are flying other people around in the guys aircraft he does
In terms of aircraft ownership... assuming this means the registered aircraft owner... (ie. the one who signed on the dotted line) does anyone think there would be any leeway for flying someone around that has leased a plane for their private use?
Example 1, person leases a plane (say for 6 - 12 months) so that it is available to them for flight instruction, occasionally (once every month or two) they need to get from A-B and aren't a certified licence holder yet, would it still qualify as private ops to either:
(1) fly them/fly with them to their destination
or
(2) on the occasion that they need a friend or relative who isn't paying for the privilege to get somewhere, drop them at the destination
Example 2 - Person attains (borrow or hires....who knows?) a plane from a friend then calls and says can you fly my son to (destination) on Friday and wants to pay you for your time...
Both assume person holds a commercial licence with instructional privileges.
I know it varies by country but was just wondering what people thought... I know plenty of people who just go ahead and do it without questioning how it fits together, but it would be nice to get a better idea where the boundary lies...
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From experience of operating a private aircraft.
As long as the gentleman or company owns the aircraft and that the only money exchanging hands is your costs then that is absoutely fine.
No AOC is required.
All you need to do is ensure that you or the company / owner can demonstrate that "no profit" is being made for the flight. Just enure you keep a paper trail of costs paid; i.e direct operating costs.
Just so you can read yourself, Google "CAA Public Transport Summary" this is a very useful document and will explain it more clearly.
Hope this helps.
As long as the gentleman or company owns the aircraft and that the only money exchanging hands is your costs then that is absoutely fine.
No AOC is required.
All you need to do is ensure that you or the company / owner can demonstrate that "no profit" is being made for the flight. Just enure you keep a paper trail of costs paid; i.e direct operating costs.
Just so you can read yourself, Google "CAA Public Transport Summary" this is a very useful document and will explain it more clearly.
Hope this helps.
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Thanks Choxs - does help, that link is fantastic (wish we had the same type of document here!). Keen to stay on the right side of the line and spent hours reading and re-reading the rules and advisories, but they really don't help!
