Greek Fire Fighting Aircraft crashed

[znord737]

From France 24 TV
Just announced one of the Fire fighting aircraft fighting the fires in Greece has crashed on a mission.

[stripakis]

Yes, this is correct. According to the serious newspaper 'Kathimerini' the plane (a PZL) crashed at 12:45 (greek time) near Argostoli on the island of Cephalonia. The 55 year old pilot had a total 4,025 hours on a variety of types including 524 on the PZL.

The crashed aircraft was of Polish origin, id.1122, was built in 1983 and had a total of 4,733 hours. The accident is being investigated by the Greek Air Force.

[A Very Civil Pilot]

I landed in EFL just after the incident, as the 2nd firefighting aircraft was returning.

Our handling agent passed on the information, stating that the aircraft had apparently stuck some power cables.

[Tandemrotor]

Is the PZL the yellow, single (radial) engined Agcat type aircraft? I was only admiring the two of them at Argostoli at the weekend!

Very sad.

[JW411]

That's exactly it - Polish version of the Agcat. I was on holiday in Corfu about 10 years ago and one of them bit the dust fighting a fire in the hills. I was told that they were flown by volunteer Greek Air Force pilots.

[fonejacker]

I know these particular aircraft in question. They are normally parked on the edge of the very small apron at EFL, next to the fire station.

[goatface]

An AGCAT firefighting? I have clear memories of these machines doing agricultural work in the UK, as robust and manouverable as they may be, I could never imagine them to be an effective fire fighting aircraft.

[SNS3Guppy]

That's exactly it - Polish version of the Agcat.

No, it really isn't. It was a M-18 Dromader, which is nothing at all like an AgCat. An AgCat is a biplane, where as the Dromader is a monoplane, and much larger with a much larger capacity. The Dromader was originally a product produced as a license copy by Thrush, in Poland, but was highly modified and has a completely different wing, significant fuselage changes, a bigger hopper and powerplant, different landing gear, tailwheel assembly and flight controls, and a different empennage.

The Dromader is the most common firefirefighting aircraft globally, particularly among Single Engine Air Tankers. I flew one for seven years, doing firefighting. it's a solid capable airplane.

It's been somewhat outshined today by the Air Tractor AT-802, and where I carried 650 gallons of fire retardant in my Dromader, I carried 800 in the Air Tractor. The air tractor is faster. The Dromaders I flew were refitted with turbine engines, rather than the russian and polish radials, and had different fire gates and hopper modifications, but were the same airframe and wing.

The M18B flies like a completely different airplane,with bigger ailerons, far more response, flap gap seals, etc. The Dromader, like many ag airplanes, isn't really "user-friendly," but it's a nice flying airplane as ag aircraft go. Heavy on the ailerons compared to an Air Tractor, but very nice compared to other aircraft.

It's definitely NOT an AgCat.

[THE THUNDER]

Who know if it the pilot had serious injured? or, he's dead?
I'm pilot fire fighting "agroforestal" in Spain, although now I work as FI, but I recognize that work in the fire is special dangerous.

When we were training with the course fire fighting, we were special careful and atencion with the net electrical, and we pass below again and again for training.
In the fires it's very dangerous, because the electrical cables don't see since the aircraft, only can view the pylons.

My condolences

[SNS3Guppy]

Who know if it the pilot had serious injured? or, he's dead?

Stergios Kotoulas, the pilot, died.

Greek pilot dies in fire-fighting aircraft crash - South Eastern Europe - The Sofia Echo

[nessim]

Local eyewitnesses say that PZL dropped water diving very low and then while climbing through heavy smoke hit power cables loosing part of left wing and crashed next of an hotel bursting in flames.



Greece bought 30 PZL dromader in 83-84 for agricultur sprayings but when spraying was forbidden they were used for firefighting. Since then 12 of them crashed killing 6 pilots through the years.

[ChristiaanJ]

Originally Posted by goatface

An AGCAT firefighting? I have clear memories of these machines doing agricultural work in the UK, as robust and manouverable as they may be, I could never imagine them to be an effective fire fighting aircraft.

I live very near MPL (Montpellier, Southern France) where they have both AgCats (biplane) and AirTractors (low-wing monoplane, looking similar to the PZL in the photo).
Big radials... I only need to hear them, to think "oh sh*t", and know what they are and where they're going....

They can carry several hundred litres of retardant, and usually operate in pairs, so they can be quite effective as a 'first response', well before the "big ones" (Canadairs, Trackers) can get here from places like Marignane (near Marseille).

Also they can rotate back into and out of MPL quite rapidly, and being "low and slow", they can also then remain on station to direct the local fire engines converging on the fire.

So yes, they can be very effective in certain areas, as around here, when they can act as a "quick reaction force".

CJ

[doubleu-anker]

"I was told that they were flown by volunteer Greek Air Force pilots."

If that is true, then possibly that is part of the problem.

Firefighting is a very specialized and dangerous type of aviation. With all due respects, what skills and experience long term, would a serving military pilot have to go firefighting? The job is dangerous enough for current and experienced personal.

They should contract in serving firefighting pilots, if they are available, or failing that experienced and current Ag pilots. No only from a safety point of view but for getting the job done effectively.

[cessnapuppy]

these fire fighting operations probably have the highest fatality and accident rates of any kind of flying, other than war time. They also tend to fly some of the oldest. creakiest and decrepit types of aircraft subjected to incredibly high g-forces and stresses. you have to drop the water really low, otherwise you just create a cloud of useless steam at 300ft - some planes skim the surface of a lake and load up water, where a unseen log or canoe spells disaster.

Makes me wonder everytime I hear of one of these crashes , if it wouldnt be better to just let the damn fire burn ( of course, if MY home was in the 'line of fire') then I would probably have a different suggestion!)

^photo from wiki

[JW411]

My apologies - I meant to say the Polish "equivalent" not the Polish "version".

[RoyHudd]

Chapeau.

Hats off to the poor guy who perished, and to the brave fellows who fly these missions. Volunteers or not, they deserve our respect as fellow aviators who undertake hard and dangerous flying for a good purpose.

Respect.

[Stuck_in_an_ATR]

YouTube vid on Dromader Firefighters - good illustration of the aircraft and the demanding job...

YouTube - Waterbombing Southwest Style

[nessim]

[QUOTE]"I was told that they were flown by volunteer Greek Air Force pilots."

If that is true, then possibly that is part of the problem.[/QUOTE

Firefighting pilots are not volunteers in Greece.
Perished pilot Stergios Kotoulas was group captain and the chief of PZL scuadron and was an experiended airforce retired officer that returned
in action (many do so for an extra income). Firefigthing pilots are officers of Greek Air Forces.

[SNS3Guppy]

They also tend to fly some of the oldest. creakiest and decrepit types of aircraft subjected to incredibly high g-forces and stresses. you have to drop the water really low, otherwise you just create a cloud of useless steam at 300ft - some planes skim the surface of a lake and load up water, where a unseen log or canoe spells disaster.

Makes me wonder everytime I hear of one of these crashes , if it wouldnt be better to just let the damn fire burn ( of course, if MY home was in the 'line of fire') then I would probably have a different suggestion!)

Spoken like someone who's never fought a fire from the air in his life.

Oldest airplanes? Several years ago the Dromader I flew was nearly new, turbine and GPS equipped, with a new fire gate, current inspections, etc. Creakiest? Decrepid? Is this what you've read somewhere?

High G-loads? Clearly this isn't you speaking from experience, because it's simply not true. Your "useless steam" comment is fanciful, and sounds like you watched the movie "always" one too many times.

The only SEATs that are picking up water are the AT-802 Fire Boss, and the converted Beavers that use a float drop system. Otherwise, it's wheels and retardant in the US, and water and foam most other places. Unseen Canoes? Are these invisible canoes, or simply agressive parent canoes that are protecting their young? Have you ever landed on the water? Surely doesn't sound like it.

In the tanker industry, we don't decide to let the fire burn, or put it out. We act as a tool on behalf of the incident commander who makes decisions as to the tactics and methods he or she wishes to use in addressing the fire. We then apply our own judgement, and act professionally to apply the water or retardant in the most appropriate manner, according to the requests from either an air attack platform, a leadplane, or ground troops. We're not there to put out the fire in most cases, but to control it, modify it's behavior, or provide backup and safe zones to ground troops who do the actual firefighting.

It's not an emergency. It's our job.

[ChristiaanJ]

SNS3Guppy,
There HAVE been some highly published crashes of hi-time C-130s losing a wing during the pull-out....
I suppose that's what cessnapuppy was referring to.

It's true that with converted military aircraft, you don't always "know where it's been".

Here in France most of the fleet is not that new either, but most of it is purpose-built (Canadair, AgCats, Air Tractors) and has never done anything but fire-fighting. Proper maintenance then does the rest.

CJ